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Monday, January 16, 2006 - 5:57pmSanction this postReply
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In Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand, Peikoff writes:

 Man percieves reality directly, not some kind of effects different from it. We percieve reality by means of its effects on our organs of perception. Nor can one reply that man's perception of reality, since it is mediated by the senses, is only "indirect." What then would "direct perception" denote? It would have to denote a grasp of reality attained without benefit of any means.


Upon debating and professing the validity of our sense perception and it's direct intereaction with reality, as Peikoff himself does so in this book, I have come across an attack that I am unsure how to evaluate and assess.

From wikipedia.com, on perception:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perception

To put it bluntly as was told to me:
What we are percieving is not reality directly, but a construction of reality, which relies on input from various stimuli. Our brains have the capacity to recieve large amounts of stimuli, then narrow them down to what seems 'important' [see: thalamus], organize those stimuli into a 'working model' of our enviromnent, and project them outwards. What we are experiencing does not appear to be Reality itself, but a 'model' of it.
Is this an actual negation of the Objective principle that man percieves reality directly? Or is it merely an explanation of how man directly percieves reality, albeit with a Kantianesque twist?

(Edited by Warren Chase Anspaugh on 1/16, 5:58pm)


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Post 1

Monday, January 16, 2006 - 6:36pmSanction this postReply
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It's a negation. (And an explanation with a Kantian twist is a negation, so your question doesn't seem to matter.) The writer is making the same error a professor of mine once did, who held that a pain is not in your arm, but in your brain.

You say the person states: "narrow them down to what seems 'important.'" But important to what? To perception of reality of course.

(Edited by Rodney Rawlings on 1/16, 6:42pm)


Post 2

Monday, January 16, 2006 - 6:41pmSanction this postReply
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Your neurons that sense external reality can have many different states, each state is dependent on their interaction with reality. This is the case with all of your neurons. Your body's state, and the information that your brain operates on, are all parts of reality.

Some people are less able to differentiate between what their senses pick up and what they imagine than others. Do you have any reason to think that you are incapable of differentiating? If your knowledge is consistent with itself, and things happen as you predict, you can be confident that you are capable of differentiating correctly. Do you have any reason to think the contrary?

It is possible that we are in a Matrix-like device, and only able to sense a subset of all that exists. Do you have any reason to think you are in a Matrix-like device? If we were, would we be able to figure it out and find a way to learn more about what is external to the matrix?

Post 3

Monday, January 16, 2006 - 9:55pmSanction this postReply
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What we are percieving is not reality directly, but a construction of reality, which relies on input from various stimuli. Our brains have the capacity to recieve large amounts of stimuli, then narrow them down to what seems 'important' [see: thalamus], organize those stimuli into a 'working model' of our enviromnent, and project them outwards. What we are experiencing does not appear to be Reality itself, but a 'model' of it.


What is this "projecting outwards"? Objectivism holds that to be aware, we must be aware of *something". Even if that something is an *abstraction*, an identification of processed stimuli, or a feeling such as joy, surprise or confusion. How do we be aware of only being aware?

*I* am the model of reality created by the action (mind) of my brain. The premise indirect perception is based on is the "I" of consciousness existing apart from the means of sensation and processing, rather than consciousness being the process itself. When I practice medition, I only need try to let go, damp the thoughts that occur to me by choosing to "listen". Merely monitoring your perceptions is still monitoring being aware of "something" your aware of.

I shouldn't get started on the Matrix, having wasted more time on TV last night watching the sequal. The second was worse than the first. More profound questions, more ridiculous answers. Anyone sniff Scientology hiding in it "Thetans"? Doesn't the "Architect" talk with a southern accent, look like Colonel Sanders, contradict himself like the perfect Christian God that makes an imperfect world?

When the Architect bashfully says "Please!" to Neo about the Oracle being the Matrix' (black-Christian) mother in response to his admission to being its father, I thought it must be a put-down to Thomas Jefferson, who was being dirtied by allegations of raping his slave around the time the movie was being made. Did I notice a picture of Bush Sr. in the background in that scene? Don't the agents talk like Nixon?

Lord have mercy! Obfuscate the truth with many lies! Perhaps we see into things what our minds have been prepared to see? Then again, art is a selective re-creation of reality according to the artists attribution of metaphysical significance.

Scott

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Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 12:17amSanction this postReply
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Warren quotes the following argument:

What we are perceiving is not reality directly, but a construction of reality, which relies on input from various stimuli. Our brains have the capacity to receive large amounts of stimuli, then narrow them down to what seems 'important' [see: thalamus], organize those stimuli into a 'working model' of our environment, and project them outwards. What we are experiencing does not appear to be Reality itself, but a 'model' of it.

and asks, "Is this an actual negation of the Objective principle that man perceives reality directly? Or is it merely an explanation of how man directly perceives reality, albeit with a Kantianesque twist?"

Well, the argument does say that we are not perceiving it directly, doesn't it? So in that respect, it is Kantianesque. Of course, if we do not perceive reality directly, then we do not perceive reality at all. There is no such thing as perceiving reality indirectly; by what indirect means would you perceive it? By means of unreality? There is no such thing as unreality. Unreality does not exist. And if we do not perceive reality at all, then we are not conscious, since there is nothing else to be conscious of. Quoting Rand, "If what you claim to perceive does not exist, what you possess is not consciousness." (AS, p. 1015)

- Bill

Post 5

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 9:54amSanction this postReply
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I think the statement is conflating the perception and integration of reality within your conscious mind with reality itself.  The perceptions I have come from reality itself and are not from constructs, but my understanding of reality is created in my conscious mind as a construct from my senses and their interaction with actual reality.

This is the faulty sentence:
What we are perceiving is not reality directly, but a construction of reality, which relies on input from various stimuli.
 
It reverses reality with perception - Where do the "stimuli" come from if not reality?  Our perception of reality, which relies on stimuli from reality itself, is the actual construct.

By the way, Rodney, did you kick your professor in the balls and ask him how his brain felt? 


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Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 10:14amSanction this postReply
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The Peikoffian model sounds suspiciously like the dualist model of the Cartesian Theatre, somewhere in the brain, where the "I" is "directly" observing the incoming signals from the different senses. There is however no such place where "direct perception" takes place, where there is some localized interface between the "I" and the incoming signals (like a screen displaying the visual representation of the outside world for example). Perception is a complex process, in which the brain actively participates, building a model of the outside world. For us, these processes have become so fast and automatic, that we're not aware of them, which creates the illusion of "direct perception", but it is an illusion.

Optical illusions may show us sometimes a little glimpse of such processes; one of my favorites is http://www.michaelbach.de/ot/col_lilacChaser/index.html . Do we perceive the rotating green patch directly? Ehm.. what green patch? Now this is a relatively simple example of color perception, but how do you think that we perceive a 3-dimensional world around us, that seems to remain invariant even as we're moving along? We can't remember it, but we all had to learn it at a young age. This becomes painfully clear when people who have been born blind or became blind at an early age, later have their vision "restored". Even if they see "something" (can detect differences in the visual field), it's often impossible for them to form a representation of the outer world. Another interesting example is the classic experiment in which a person wears goggles that invert the visual field. At first he'll see the world upside-down, but after some time the brain changes its representation and the world appears again to be normal.

Rodney:
The writer is making the same error a professor of mine once did, who held that a pain is not in your arm, but in your brain.
Your professor was quite right, the pain is in your brain and not in your arm. Cut the nerve from your arm to your brain, and the pain has disappeared. The reverse situation also occurs: pain in a phantom limb. In this case there isn't even an arm, and yet the person clearly feels pain in the non-existent arm! Feeling the pain in your arm is an example of outward projection. This is not some physical projection, but a mental process in which the pain is so closely associated with its source, that we have the illusion that we feel it there. Such a projection can also extend beyond the own body. So we can "feel" things by touching them indirectly, by use of an instrument or even a simple stick. If done regularly, the feeling will after some time seem to be located at the touching end of the instrument and not at your fingers/hand. Another example is how you can "feel" with the tires of your car (especially if the road is slippery). Or the tennis player who "feels" the ball on his racket, etc.

Post 7

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 10:13amSanction this postReply
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Speaking of the Matrix, has anyone listened to the philosopher's commentary on the new boxed set? It features Ken Wilber and Cornell West.

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Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 10:43amSanction this postReply
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That’s awesome!

All of the purple disappears and I “see” nothing but a rotating a green dot.


Post 9

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 10:57amSanction this postReply
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To the notion that pain is exclusively in the mind, I would say that since pain or sensation is the product of an interaction between two entities, object [for instance, a needle] and apparatus [nervous system], it cannot be identified exclusively with either. Such products introduce a third alternative: they are not object alone or sensation alone, but object-as-sensory-percieved.  [To paraphrase Peikoff]


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Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 11:23amSanction this postReply
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Pain is of course triggered by something outside the brain, but the sensation is in the brain. Cut the nerve and there is no pain. In this regard "pain" is unequivocal, as it means only the sensation, not some outside stimulus. That is different for the old chestnut: "If a tree falls in a forest, and there is no one there to hear it fall, does it make a noise?" The answer is of course trivial: define "noise" first. If you define it as the sensation of hearing by a person, the answer is no. If you define it as the physical phenomenon of sound waves, the answer is yes. The confusion arises while in general both definitions are used. No such confusion is possible with "pain" however.

Post 11

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 12:08pmSanction this postReply
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Pain is the form in which we perceive damage or malfunctioning of some part of our body. Of course there won't be any pain if the means of perceiving the malfunction is destroyed. You don't get any sound from your radio if you disconnect the speaker wires.

Post 12

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 1:12pmSanction this postReply
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In answer to Cal's "No such confusion is possible with 'pain' however":

Maybe not that particular confusion, but your view represents another confusion. The science explains why we have a pain in our arm (which is a report of a fact that is a summing-up of an entire state of affairs), not that we really don't. (Other science would explain why we might feel like we have an arm when we don't.)

In the same way, the science explains how we perceive reality, it does not discover that true reality is closed to awareness. (A view that is logically untenable.)


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Post 13

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 1:46pmSanction this postReply
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To answer Kurt's: "By the way, Rodney, did you kick your professor in the balls and ask him how his brain felt?"

It would have made no difference, since I had concluded his brain was nuts.


Post 14

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 5:31pmSanction this postReply
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Pain is:
A "desire" to stop something (performing mental operations to find a solution on how to stop something).

That "something" can be reduced to:
The actual information that your brain is working on, that it is trying to discontinue from sensing the state/having the state as input/operating on the state.

Pain is more "intense" when your body/mind works harder and puts more focus into stopping the sensation/information/input/operand/state.

"Desire" is simply a description of what your mind is doing, namely it is acting in a way to make something happen. When you are desiring something, you are performing operations to search for a solution on how to make something happen or continue to happen. When you are not desiring something, you are not performing these operations.

Simple, eh?

I reject Cal's assertion that we do not "directly" sense external reality. Our neurons change in their own state when they are influenced by other parts of reality, this is "sense"ing. This is a direct influence, you can't get any more direct then one part of reality influencing another part of reality like an electron exerting force on another electron. This influence directly causes the nerve to change its behavior, it fires electrical impulses differently. The different rates that a neuron can fire are different states. Each state contains information that is directly influenced by external parts of reality. That is how our nervous system gets all of its input.

Now just figure out what we do with that information, and you've figured out how the human mind works.

Post 15

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 9:02pmSanction this postReply
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As a side not regarding the Matrix, found this interesting web page: http://www.towson.edu/~flynn/matrix2.htm

It is really a conglomeration of many different ideas from the realm of science fiction (and fantasy) to the dominion of philosophy and religion, with some really cool special effects and kung-fu thrown in for good measure.


Like Tolkien's LOTR, it looks like the Matrix is a hodge-podge of reiterated themes.

I is for Immanuel Kant – The great philosopher Immanuel Kant argued that the only thing of value in and of itself is the ability to make rational choices. He believed that we must free ourselves of our own experiences, which might deceive us, so that make choices based on "the Highest Good." Neo believes that he must sacrifice himself by facing Smith, once and for all, in order to make a choice that will be rational and meet the role of the highest good.


Oh the Horror! The horor!

And perhaps I'm right about the Architect being Jefferson.
Googling around on google search results

I find: http://www.illout.com/forums/printthread.php?t=46192

The protectorate of the Merovingian families and lineage is the Knights Templar-Strict Observance, whose esoteric system is contained in the Order of Illuminati, founded in 1776.

The primary teachings of the O.H.G. is contained in the Merovingian Bible which was translated by Thomas Jefferson, himself a Grand Master of the Strict Observance-Knights Templar. The Merovingian Bible, also called the Book of the Holy Grail contains the doctrine of the Hidden Church ie. Merovingian Gnostic Church.

This sacred text was imparted to Joseph of Arimathea by the Neutral Angels who have dominion over the Holy Grail. Its doctrine is critical to the Grail Quest as well as understanding the war between good and evil which is a critical part of the purpose of the Quest for the Holy Grail.


Yea, its just a movie. But great literature is timeless. The philosphical questions in the Matrix are timeless, but not the fiction.

Scott

Edit: link too long
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores
on 1/17, 9:34pm)


Post 16

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 10:23pmSanction this postReply
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I reject Cal's assertion that we do not "directly" sense external reality. Our neurons change in their own state when they are influenced by other parts of reality, this is "sense"ing. This is a direct influence, you can't get any more direct then one part of reality influencing another part of reality like an electron exerting force on another electron. This influence directly causes the nerve to change its behavior, it fires electrical impulses differently. The different rates that a neuron can fire are different states. Each state contains information that is directly influenced by external parts of reality. That is how our nervous system gets all of its input.
Dean, I agree with your stance on this matter, and even quoted what you've said to this fellow, who in essence, thinks that man is blind to "actual reality" [whatever that means], because man has a specific, natural and limited means of percieving it, and the response was:

Yes, however input is converted into percepts, similar to how computers convert information into binary. Binary code is what the computer 'percieves' not the raw information. Likewise, mammals precieve their percepts, not stimuli.

Here is an excerpt from the exchange between us:

AynRandLover.: No matter what living being and mode of cognition it has, it cannot percieve, what you refer to as "actual reality", because it has a means by which to percieve it?

KantianesqueMan: No, man cannot percieve actual reality because we only have means to create 'maps' of reality. "The map should not be confused with the territory."

AynRandLover: ".....-=massages temples=-...."

(Edited by Warren Chase Anspaugh on 1/17, 10:31pm)


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Post 17

Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 11:51pmSanction this postReply
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Dragonfly wrote,
The Peikoffian model sounds suspiciously like the dualist model of the Cartesian Theatre, somewhere in the brain, where the "I" is "directly" observing the incoming signals from the different senses. There is however no such place where "direct perception" takes place, where there is some localized interface between the "I" and the incoming signals (like a screen displaying the visual representation of the outside world for example). Perception is a complex process, in which the brain actively participates, building a model of the outside world. For us, these processes have become so fast and automatic, that we're not aware of them, which creates the illusion of "direct perception", but it is an illusion.
No, it isn't. The Peikoffian model is correct. There is nothing else to perceive but reality. The only alternative to reality is unreality, which does not exist to be perceived. It is true that perception is a complex process in which the brain actively participates, because we always perceive reality in some particular form and by some particular means, but that does not mean that the brain therefore builds a "model" of the outside world, such that what we perceive is the model and not the outside world itself, which is a Kantian theory of perception if I ever saw one!

There are really only two alternatives: either you are conscious of reality or you are not conscious of it. If you are conscious of it, then you perceive it directly. If you don't perceive it directly, then in order to know it, you must infer it from what you do perceive directly. But the only thing that you could perceive directly other than reality is unreality, which does not exist. Therefore, if you perceive anything directly, it has to be reality; there is nothing else to perceive. Also, perception is, by definition, direct; there is no such thing as indirect perception. Any kind of indirect knowledge is inferential; it is acquired by inference from direct observation.

What you may be thinking is that since different people can perceive the same object differently (e.g., a color-blind person and a normal person), the object of awareness cannot be perceived directly, for if it were, then everyone would perceive it in the same way. This is what David Kelley calls the "diaphanous" theory of perception (see his book The Evidence of the Senses for a refutation of that view). The diaphanous theory holds that in order to perceive reality (directly), one must perceive it by a process of pure consciousness devoid of any means or form of perception. But it is that theory that must be rejected, because it makes no sense. Perception necessarily requires a specific means--physical sense organs--and a specific sensory form--e.g., vision, hearing, touch, etc.--without which it is literally inconceivable. Therefore, the conclusion to draw is not that because we perceive in some particular way and by some particular means, we do not perceive reality directly. The conclusion to draw is that we do perceive it directly but in different ways and by different means.

- Bill

Post 18

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 12:11amSanction this postReply
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Yes! Let us also remember that an entity is the sum of its parts:

The identity of an entity composed of other entities can be fully explained by reference to the identity of the building blocks, and how they are interacting. A house can be explained by reference to the wood, metal, and glass that are combined in that particular way to form the house. Or it could be explained in terms of the atoms that form it. These are all true, because the entity is a sum of its parts. Depending on what we specify as an 'entity', it has a particular identity. This identity exists objectively. We may choose to focus on a particular part of an entity, and discover the identity of that part, but it doesn't contradict the identity of the whole.

From Importanceofphilosophy.com

Therefore, no matter what manner in which reality is being percieved, or what aspect of reality is being percieved - it is Reality.
To say that that because our perception of reality is human [read: conditional]; that because our perception does not register everything, we therefore, do not directly percieve reality is a denial of a natural and lawful aspect of the Law of Identity: That an entity is the sum of its parts.


Post 19

Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 4:36amSanction this postReply
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Bill:
No, it isn't. The Peikoffian model is correct. There is nothing else to perceive but reality. The only alternative to reality is unreality, which does not exist to be perceived. It is true that perception is a complex process in which the brain actively participates, because we always perceive reality in some particular form and by some particular means, but that does not mean that the brain therefore builds a "model" of the outside world, such that what we perceive is the model and not the outside world itself, which is a Kantian theory of perception if I ever saw one!
Oh my, a Kantian theory of perception in the House of Rand! We wouldn't want that, would we? Your interpretation is incorrect, however. We don't "perceive the model", but perceiving reality is building a model of reality.
There are really only two alternatives: either you are conscious of reality or you are not conscious of it. If you are conscious of it, then you perceive it directly.
No, that is a non sequitur, you're falling in the trap of the user illusion, the same error that causes so much confusion in the free will/determinism discussion. That it seems to you as if you perceive the outside world directly doesn't mean that you really perceive it directly.
If you don't perceive it directly, then in order to know it, you must infer it from what you do perceive directly.
The point is that the whole notion of "direct perception" is in fact incoherent. In all the dictionary definitions of "perception" that I've looked up the terms awareness and/or interpretation are used. Perception is not merely receiving signals from the outside world. It is a process wherein the brain constructs an interpretation, i.e. a model of the outside world on the basis of these signals and on what is stored in memory. This process has to be learned, there is no such thing as "direct recognition". After some time this process becomes automatic, and as it is relatively fast, we're tricked into the user illusion that we become immediately aware of the world around us. If we see someone at a distance of 100 meters, we don't conclude that this is a tiny dwarf, even if the image of that person on our retina is a only small fraction of the image of a person at 1 meter distance. Our brain automatically makes the correction for the perspective distortion. This process has become so natural to us that we no longer aware of it, we seem to grasp immediately that that little figure there is a person of normal size, but it still has to be done. This perspective correction is only one of the many aspects of the model building done by the brain to generate a representation of the outside world.

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