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Friday, June 10, 2005 - 6:22pmSanction this postReply
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Recently there was a brouhaha on the thread discussing Joe Rowlands’ article, "Objectivism: Not Just a Better Set of Rules." Most posters, myself emphatically included, were delighted with the article, meting out as it did a heavy body-blow to the view of ethical principles as a priori commandments to be unthinkingly obeyed. David Elmore, however, didn’t like it. He began his critique of it as follows:

Thank you, Rowlands, for another facile wank-job with a poly-paragraph soporific denouement. Where does one start with such diarrhetic tripe?

My concern here is not with the points Mr. Elmore went on to make; it is with the words above. My initial response was to assume Mr. Elmore had had a little too much to drink, and to laugh the comments off. But the point has been made to me forcefully—and I have come to agree with it—that no one should be allowed to hurl such insults in such a direction and not be called for it. It’s not that insults per se are not permitted, however undesirable they may be as currency for discourse; what we will not permit is the hosts of this site being defecated on by ill-mannered guests.

Joe Rowlands pays for this site. He and Jeff Landauer own it. I co-own it as SOLO’s Founder and Principal, by dint of the fact that Joe & Jeff, at their suggestion and with my blessing, turned the web site they had planned to call ObjectivismHQ into SOLOHQ, incorporating SOLO’s Credo and overall vision. When he shells out the dollars, Joe is not paying for folk to insult him. Nor should he be expected to put up with insults from those whose free visits here he makes possible. We are very happy to have created a voluntary community of soulmates that typifies what the Objectivist culture should have been like from the beginning; however, folk in the community should not forget that they meet on private property, and it’s boorish bad form to accuse the owner of facile wanking, etc.. Disagreeing with him is one thing; crapping on him is quite another.

We are not seeking in any way to diminish the vigour of the debates that rage here, nor are we seeking to impose unrealistic expectations that no one will ever get riled up, that there’ll never be any bruising and battering from the rough-and-tumble of passionate engagement, etc.. Passionate engagement is part of what SOLO is all about. But that is not a licence for abuse of the hosts by rude guests, especially when the target is a cherished buddy and hero of mine. In this instance, we’ve placed Mr. Elmore under moderation pending an apology.

Linz




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Post 1

Friday, June 10, 2005 - 6:30pmSanction this postReply
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Linz wrote:
When he shells out the dollars, Joe is not paying for folk to insult him. Nor should he be expected to put up with insults from those whose free visits here he makes possible.  ...  Passionate engagement is part of what SOLO is all about. But that is not a licence for abuse of the hosts by rude guests, especially when the target is a cherished buddy and hero of mine.
To borrow the language of my "Houseguests from Hell":

"But LIIIIiiiiiiIIIINZ  ...  You seem very inflexible, Linz."

Just kidding.  I appreciate your position and support it.


Post 2

Friday, June 10, 2005 - 7:44pmSanction this postReply
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Linz wrote:
When he shells out the dollars, Joe is not paying for folk to insult him. Nor should he be expected to put up with insults from those whose free visits here he makes possible.  ...  Passionate engagement is part of what SOLO is all about. But that is not a licence for abuse of the hosts by rude guests, especially when the target is a cherished buddy and hero of mine.
I wonder if you'd mind posting a list of those we're actually allowed to rudely abuse? LOL

All seriousness aside, without the occasional deserved spanking around here, this place would begin to look like Usenet. There, the monkey poop fairly runs down the walls.

NH


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Post 3

Friday, June 10, 2005 - 10:57pmSanction this postReply
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Right call Linz. Joe's magnificent contribution deserves better.

- Sam


Post 4

Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 12:07amSanction this postReply
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Great call, Linz.

Sam, you said exactly what I wanted to say.

JJ


Post 5

Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 12:48amSanction this postReply
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Strikes me, having been awol sometime, this is a good place to say how glad I am for Solo being here. I've been sorting my own empire and it's not been the best of times, but throughout I've followed HQ - and been regularly refreshed & happily smacked over. It was started by fine folk, and has attracted more & more of the same. So my thanks, particularly to the fountainheads - Linz, Joe & Jeff, and your unreasonable passion.

Just more french jokes please.

- Sam





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Post 6

Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 2:44amSanction this postReply
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Pierson—the French jokes are *your* department. Get back to work, man!

Luke—I was entirely on your side re those whining females trying to give you the make-over! Your responses were perfect. Don't worry about Phil He's going through a "be nice to everybody indefinitely" phase. He's a really good guy, really. :-) As you know, his presentation at SOLOC 4 was one of the highlights. And that's just the trichotomy. His lecture wasn't too shabby either. :-)

Thanks to the many folk who've been sanctioning our "spanking" (publicly & privately ... a huge number in the latter category). I sincerely hope David sees the matter in perspective. Some things are worth going down in a hail of bullets for. The "right" to call Joe Rowlands a "wanker" on a site paid for by Joe Rowlands is not one of them.

Linz

Post 7

Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 6:53amSanction this postReply
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The "right" to call Joe Rowlands a "wanker" on a site paid for by Joe Rowlands is not one of them.

Quite true Linz.

He doesn't just pay for it, but does a hell of a lot of work for the site as well. He deserves praise and not abuse. Thanks again to Joe for making this site possible.

It is obvious that Joe does enjoy passionate debate and discussion in regard to his articles, but direct personal abuse is something he shouldn't have to put up with.


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Post 8

Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 7:58amSanction this postReply
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I don't think Elmore should've insulted Joe, but my reasons seem to differ from others in this thread. It sure looks like some here might argue as follows: Joe does good by providing this website and writing nice articles, so we shouldn't insult him, but those who don't provide this website or write nice articles, well, they're fair game. In my view, we should discourage having a person so blatantly insult others not because those others have heightened status or contribution (although such heights might warrant our praise), but because insults breed uncivility, which is anathema to rational discourse. I don't see how it's any more uncivil to insult the king than it is to insult the pauper, although I can definitely see how it's a worse career move.

Respectfully,
Jordan


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Post 9

Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 8:43amSanction this postReply
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I don't see how it's any more uncivil to insult the king than it is to insult the pauper...

Nicely said, Jordan.  Such rules should be universal.



Post 10

Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 9:42amSanction this postReply
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"Such rules should be universal." [Jennolo]

I agree, but it's understandable that the principals would notice, be more upset (like all of us) when someone insults us or some deeply held personal value..and it may not as viscerally grab their attention when it's directed elsewhere.

> Luke—I was entirely on your side re those whining females ...Don't worry about Phil He's going through a "be nice to everybody indefinitely" phase. [Linzipus]

Now, of course my statement above is just another one of my spineless attempts to be nice. Just a proof of what a pussy and what a wuss I really am :-)

> As you know, his presentation at SOLOC 4 was one of the highlights. And that's just the trichotomy. His lecture wasn't too shabby either. :-)

Thank you (I think). 'Tis an "inside" joke: The real reason I am called a trichotomist is that it's clear I always see three sides of every issue.

--Philippus Trichotomus Maximus
(Edited by Philip Coates
on 6/11, 12:42pm)


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Post 11

Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 9:42amSanction this postReply
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I think that one needs to point out that some insults have their basis in reality. Calling a supporter of Saddam Hussein a Saddamite is one example. In reply to this post, people should feel free to state that I am dumber than a sack full of hammers, because often, I am. I personally have no problem with insults that accurately describe a person's proclivities - especially the odious ones. 

But implying that Joe wanks by or while writing, has no basis in reality as far as I can see. You may think he was mistaken in that article. His style of writing might get on the nerves. But to suggest that any mistakes and that the style are pathological is absurd. Joe has assembled a formidable body of excellent writing on this site to say nothing of his work in establishing and maintaining SOLO itself (a forum that David Elmore gushes about here in Post 7.) In the face of this I think that the insulting part of David's reply was unjust.

Given that offence was justifiably taken, I think that it is appropriate that David be moderated pending an apology.

Regardless of the outcome I will happily continue to peruse and post to SOLO as long as the standards of etiquette are applied equally. I have no doubt that they will be. I think that Linz, Joe et al. have proven to be fair and pretty tolerant over the course of SOLO's history.
(Edited by Robert Winefield on 6/11, 9:44am)


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Post 12

Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 10:24amSanction this postReply
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David,

I don't like these things at all when they go public and everybody chimes in. However, despite my repugnance, I must admit that the call is correct.

What stands out to me most of all is that all this is so easy to stop. Linz wrote that you are under moderation until you apologize. He gave his reasons and they are proper.

The hardest thing on earth seems to be to get an Objectivist to apologize for anything at all - regardless of how wrong - when the issue is not a rationalized "error of knowledge." One of the miracles of Solo is that I see Objectivists apologizing for excesses and outbursts at times. It makes me scratch my head in wonder and feel gratitude toward the owners (Linz, Joe and Jeff) to be here at all.

We all have our excesses when we feel deeply about things. We all shoot off our mouths at times. I know I do. That is one of the prices you pay for this particular Sense of Life - the one shared on Solo.

So I want to make an appeal to you, David.

Dude, I think you are very intelligent. I enjoy reading your posts. You get dogmatic at times and we have disagreed, but still, you are one hot Objectivist.

You were way out of line on that post (although it was funny as all get out on first reading) and owning up to that fact will not diminish you in any way - on the contrary, at least to one person (me), it will greatly raise my esteem for you.

So how about that apology? You can still disagree with Joe on the issues and develop your own line of thought. That is in the rules that have been made clear to everyone. So why not just bite the bullet and say, "I am sorry. I was wrong to insult you the way I did. I will try to not let that happen in the future."

It's easy (and it only hurts the first time), but you have to mean it. Then we can get away from all this and back to your valuable contributions.

Also, the person making this request to you is a person who has apologized here on Solo at times.

Michael


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Post 13

Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 12:09pmSanction this postReply
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It not a question of the King being given better treatment over the Pauper.

Why should Joe pay for someone else to abuse him?

I am surprised that Objectivists would be demanding egalitarianism where private property is concerned.

One operates on the principle of good-faith only up to a point. That line has been crossed. Respect is not a god-given right, it has to be earned.

Linz is asking for an apology, not banishment. Is that not a rational request?

(Edited by Marcus Bachler on 6/11, 12:13pm)


Post 14

Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 12:22pmSanction this postReply
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"Linz is asking for an apology, not banishment. Is that not a rational request?"

It is, but I ain't holding my breath.

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Post 15

Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 12:22pmSanction this postReply
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I agree that an apology is in order here.  Personal attacks on the owner of a forum does not have to be tolerated.  There was a lot of discussion about this in the Stoly thread.  An occasional lapse in decorum is excusable, but David went too far in abusing Joe's hospitality.  Disagreement on certain issues do not need to descend to that level of insult. He is biting the hand that feeds him and for the management of this forum to let it go unnoticed would set a very bad precedent.
(Edited by katdaddy on 6/11, 1:05pm)


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Post 16

Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 3:32pmSanction this postReply
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Marcus,
I am surprised that Objectivists would be demanding egalitarianism where private property is concerned.
My comment had little to do with egalitarianism and much to do with promoting rational discourse, which is usually reduced whenever a discusser -- be him king or pauper -- is insulted. Under Objectivism, Joe and the other owners may censor whomever they please, by whim or with reason. It's their prerogative, as it is their property.
Linz is asking for an apology, not banishment. Is that not a rational request?
Well, I think it would've been more reasonable had David received fair warning. (Please correct me if David was warned.) I also think it would be reasonable to ask David to say something like, "I'll give my best efforts not to insult SOLOists in the future," rather than make him apologize, as demands for apology often come off brutishly power-trippy and put the apologizer in a state of humility, a state which I think no Objectivist should encourage or demand from another.

Jordan


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Post 17

Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 6:37pmSanction this postReply
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Jordan, you wrote:
... demands for apology often come off brutishly power-trippy and put the apologizer in a state of humility...
This is contextual, but this is precisely one of the points where I am vastly in disagreement with how many practice Objectivism.

To apologize for insulting someone is not humiliating. It is submission by the apologizer to the canons of civility in social discourse, which is actually, on the contrary, ennobling. Such submission is the same as submitting to the canons of honesty, justice and other principles. Bad manners and arrogance is not the same thing has holding your own ground over an issue when you are convinced you are right. That kind of behavior sure is a piss-poor argument.

I get sort of amused by Objectivists who think the worst thing in life is to have to apologize for something. That would mean that they were wrong about it, and that would be lethal to their self-esteem.

Since I have an ornery streak, I have caught myself deriving  great pleasure out of proving a few of them wrong and watching the rationalizations proliferate. I am working on myself to get rid of this weaker side, but the temptations are soooooooo great at times...

Michael

Post 18

Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 6:53pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

I'm not saying that every demand for apology is brutishly power-trippy; I'm just saying that some can come off that way. (I'm not sure that this is instance is one of them.) I'm also saying that demanding an apology often seems ill-motivated and unreasonable where demanding a simple assurance of future civility would suffice. And I agree with you that apologizing needn't be humiliating when one has fallen short of according with good principle. But I'd rather see the apologizer apologize of his own accord and not in response to coercion, lest we receive the apology of a clockwork orange rather than a man.

Jordan


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Post 19

Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 7:02pmSanction this postReply
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I have no problem with the moderation, but why make a public issue of it? I tried to think what I would do if I were David  in this situation. Hmm... I'd probably just leave the site for a couple of years and come back and see if anybody still cared.

Jim


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