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Post 180

Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 12:28amSanction this postReply
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Sharon:
I agree completely with you.  Infantile invectives reveal a diminished creativity and are an insult to one's intelligence. Could it be that such a person brings force against one's own self?  Would that be tantamount to attempting suicide?
Usually it's just a matter of a person's more primitive emotions overwhelming their intellect, I'd say.

On another venue, a Usenet forum, a narcissistic intellectual would lay in wait for me until he thought I'd made a mistake, then pounce. He was inevitably wrong, and in the series of ensuing posts one could watch his effective IQ drop about 20 points per post until he was frothing at the mouth with crude invective and making little pretense at rational argument. The tragedy is, this is a brilliant guy whose intellect is visibly blunted by out-of-control emotions.  
Worse, we've heard those vituperations so many times before; they've lost their cachet. No, I think that other  means will have to be found to shock and dismay. Like old master's art that's been overexposed and relegated to kitsch; it just doesn't work on us any more.
My hat's off to anyone who finds an occasion to use 'cachet.'

True on the words losing potency, which just makes the person using them look all the more intellectually impotent. Calling that the 'language of honesty' is like calling crosses in jars of urine 'art.'

Nathan Hawking


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Post 181

Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 12:47amSanction this postReply
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It's with sadness that I report that the talks between me & Jennifer failed. Or rather, they succeeded, then failed. We reached an agreement, I was set to make the announcement ... & Jennifer pulled out. Now, Joe is so peeved with her that even if I still wanted her back & she wanted to come back, I'd have to fight him over it. Only very rarely do I interfere with his running of SOLOHQ & pull rank, & I wouldn't do it over this.

A matter that should have been of no consequence—moderating someone pending an apology that nigh everyone here acknowledges was owed—turned into World War Three after the apology was refused. Blame is directed at me for my angry response to Jennifer after David Elmore was placed under moderation. That response provoked Jennifer into leaving, for which ceremony we continued to provide an operatic stage (& still do, in a sense). An outpouring of applause & sympathy occurred for Jennifer, along with loud booing of me, some open, some behind my back. What should have been a storm in a teacup became the nuking of Hiroshima, with fallout still being assessed.

Tonight I want to back up & say a few stock-taking things, not in anger but in sorrow.

First, I want to provide an extra piece of context that I should have supplied in the response to Jennifer that set off such a maelstrom. Just two days prior, I had received a mirror image of the question Jennifer posted, only in much less polite form, from David Elmore via SOLO Mail. Here's part of it verbatim:

Are the cherished kings and queens of SOLO beyond the pale? Is the soporific and facile (I am being too kind) Rowlands not proper game for ridicule when he repeats himself, and then repeats himself, and then states the most obvious of points in a preachy fashion? I had planned to make another post on that thread pointing out how all the pejorative adjectives I used on his simplistic ass were founded, but I thought that would be too much for him to handle. Instead, I made a thoughtful post (with some ribbing) showing how he confounds virtues -- to the detrimate of himself and others. I proved my case and was sanctioned heavily for it. Rowlands got broadsided by me. So what? The panty-waste is used to getting high-fived and and slapped on the ass. He's pissed. Let the silly fucker be pissed. That's what SOLO is about, isn't it? ... If you've read my posts, they are rational and largely nice -- because most people are not Rowlands or Phil Coates. You must know that. I will not apologize, as I'm sure you've surmised. I wish very strongly to stay on SOLO, to be your friend and many others', so I hope you will change your mind.

How a forum handles criticism of its leaders is a true measure of its allowance of free discussion. I'll patiently wait and see how you handle this, and I'll put on hold a half-dozen articles I'm working on.


Thus, when Jennifer, Mr Elmore's close friend, posted her query, two nights later, about insults directed at SOLO's leaders, with the same sting in the tail—that her opinion of SOLO rested on the answer—it smelled very strongly to me of a continuation of his agenda. (In fairness to Jennifer, she insists that it wasn't.)

I quote now what I said to Jennifer during our negotiations:

So that’s two threats within two days from two people pushing the same line on the same issue.

So I got mad. I don’t take kindly to threats & ultimatums. I got mad. I said, among other things:

"Now let's cut to the chase here. In the preceding remarks, I have rubbed the noses of the infantile prats who clearly need educating about the rudiments of the free market in a principle that is clearly foreign to them: if the owners of this site choose to be utterly arbitrary, capricious, cruel and 'unfair' in the rules they impose and the way they impose them, that is entirely their prerogative. Anyone who doesn't like it is free to fuck off. No one is here under duress. But in actual fact, of course, the owners of this site don't make that choice, notwithstanding the idiotic charges levelled at them by some on this thread. All that has happened is that one of the owners, the one shelling out the dosh, has taken justifiable exception to being insulted, and has demanded an apology. I'm still assuming and hoping the insulter will have the decency and sense of perspective to proffer it and we can all get on with more important matters.


I noted to Jennifer that she had responded by quoting the above up to the words "is free to fuck off," deliberately ignored the crucial words that followed, & said, "Well, I'm glad that's been cleared up. It's been fun folks." I noted that this looked awfully like an outcome looking for an excuse.

See, there never was a reason for Jennifer to take my post so personally, as I hope is more clear to you since I've shown you the Elmore mail. I never mentioned her. All my remarks were directed at her, Elmore ... and absolutely anyone else in the whole wide world whom the shoe might fit! If it didn't fit, didn't apply.

Please re-read what I said in that post on the matter of perspective:

I raise "perspective" here intentionally. One thing on this thread that has left me boggle-eyed with incredulity is that some posters are saying their whole opinion of SOLO, and their decision whether to stick around, hinges on the outcome of this dispute. Seriously! An owner exercises his prerogative ... and this is suddenly something akin to Rand/Branden or Kelley/Peikoff. SOLO is suddenly guilty of the worst excesses of the ARI. For fuck's sake you guys!! We have sweated blood to bring you an Objectivist culture that is the sunlit, open field that it should always have been. And you know bloody well we have succeeded! For the first time, apart from the deliciously heady early days of NBI, it has actually happened! "It exists, it is real, it is possible, it is yours." And, if the truth be known, the freedom to dissent and question is much greater here than there. This, without falling into the feeble-minded, limp-wristed, mealy-mouthed ecumenical nothingness that became TOC (hopefully about to be corrected). Yet you're prepared to walk off this field just because one of its owners demands an apology of someone who wronged him? If you are really so lacking in perspective then you clearly never belonged here and you should walk off. Preferably, run, in order that my vomit doesn't reach you. But is this really you? Have I been so wrong about some of you?!

The answer to both these questions is clearly, in my mind, "No! This isn'treally you, & I haven'tbeen wrong about you." My post was a generic kick-ass where I deliberately avoided mentioning names because it wasn't about particular personalities but particular fallacies– very silly fallacies which particular folk seemed to be in danger of succumbing to. I didn't think for a second that Jennifer would step up & say, in effect, "This is aimed at me & only me, so I am fucking off" (& this is leaving aside the shoe-donning implication of this). I didn't imagine for a second that our site would morph from our "open, sunlit field" into a bloody battleground that would make a Mel Gibson movie look like scenes from a Pilgrims' picnic. But I hadn't counted on Jennifer's apparent desire to leave & find an excuse. She was off like a whore's drawers, not even taking time to tell me privately before announcing her departure publicly. If leaving SOLO were a painful thing for her, done reluctantly, surely she would have stuck around for long enough to see if her grievances could be resolved?

I didn't want her to go. She was right up there among SOLO's brightest & best. Her playfulness & positivity, her sassiness & sauciness, will be missed by me as much as by any of you. She was quintessentially SOLO. I tried to bring her back. She agreed to come back. We agreed on terms. Then she changed her mind. If you want to know why, you'll have to ask her. No explanation she's given me makes any sense. But, whatever the explanation, a deal's a deal. Isn't it?

I can't pretend this isn't easily the worst thing that's happened to SOLO in its short life. It is. SOLO is badly wounded, & there'll be no shortage of ill-wishers snickering with glee as they hover to drive some more stakes into the wound. In a sense, it's precisely one of SOLO's great strengths—its openness—that has enabled this episode to be so destructive. The ill-wishers have had a field day, & no attempt has been made to censor or restrict them.

We'll survive. The smoke will clear & we'll find ourselves on the sunlit field still. We'll clear the rubble & regroup. We'll flourish.

Linz



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Post 182

Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 1:27amSanction this postReply
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Linz wrote:

We'll survive. The smoke will clear & we'll find ourselves on the sunlit field still. We'll clear the rubble & regroup. We'll flourish.
Of course we will. While I'm sad, too, that Jennifer has chosen to depart, SOLO's future doesn't hinge on the presence of one individual - no matter how inimitable. So ill-wishers everywhere, take note: SOLO will endure. 


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Post 183

Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 1:32amSanction this postReply
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Linz, my sense from Jennifer's recent posts is that she is doing a bit of searching and growing. It might be that she has other things on her plate right now and all this madness is too much for her. Give a girl time to think and leave the SOLO door open for her. If she wants to come back she will.

I agree completely that Jen is quintessentially SOLO. When I think of this place she is one the very first images that comes to mind. She's a treat.

So cheer up, Linz. Don't feel so bad. Some things in life are bad. They can really make you mad. When you're chewin' on life's gristle. Don't grumble. Give a whistle! And this'll help things turn out for the best...and....

Always look on the bright side of life (whistle whistle whistle)


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Post 184

Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 1:50amSanction this postReply
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Linz,

All this hurt you deeply. It hurts Kat and me too. I am sure that many more here are too.

Jennifer - Wherever you are, we wish you only happiness. Please keep a return to Solo an option for reconsideration.

Michael

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 6/19, 2:21am)


Post 185

Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 1:57amSanction this postReply
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Nathan,

Got your dander up, have ya? So you like the term "trailer trash"? Makes you feel good, does it?

Hey, go for it all. Keep on using "pig" as a metaphor for Solo.

Michael


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Post 186

Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 2:37amSanction this postReply
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Michael:
Nathan,

Got your dander up, have ya?
Nope. Takes a lot more than your monkeyshines to do that, Michael. LOL. Why, were you trying to?
So you like the term "trailer trash"? Makes you feel good, does it?
Nope. When people act like brawling Jerry Springer Show rejects, there's nothing uplifting about it.

(Bear in mind that I'm talking about your defense of calling others "motherfuckers" and the like.)
Hey, go for it all. Keep on using "pig" as a metaphor for Solo.
Michael, you should be ashamed. Either that or you've made your third mistake of the year. I simply don't see how ANYBODY could honestly read my "pig" statement as being about SOLO.

Or are YOU saying that everyone on SOLO acts like pigs? Seeing the world though mud-colored glasses, are we?

NH


Post 187

Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 2:45amSanction this postReply
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Nathan,

Yeah, you're right. You were using "pig" as a metaphor only for those who use foul language - like me, the owners of Solo and some others - not everyone on it.

I stand corrected.

Michael


Post 188

Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 4:40amSanction this postReply
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Linz,

Thank you for this explanation and your efforts. Once an argument reaches a certain point, either one side has to give in or at least acknowledge the issue wasn't worth such a huge price or it continues. I'm repeatedly flabbergasted that many people think it's such a huge sin to give in. You're stuck in a local value minimum and the only way to get out is to step out of that minimum.

As I've  said in previous posts, if people don't want to apologize they should disagree and commit in cases like this, they should state their disagreement but acknowledge that the issue isn't worth the price.

Jim

(Edited by James Heaps-Nelson on 6/19, 4:47am)


Post 189

Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 4:58amSanction this postReply
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One thing I've noticed about Objectivists and many Asians is that they have to have a way to save face. Pride becomes an issue unto itself. Well, let's get over it. Sometimes you have more to gain by stepping away from your pride than wallowing in it.

Jim


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Post 190

Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 5:16amSanction this postReply
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Linz,
So, you didn't.....apologize? *Sigh*.
You even admitted here that you made an "angry response to Jennifer". (Sigh again)


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Post 191

Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 6:11amSanction this postReply
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Linz,

I appreciate the update; I too, was drawn to the gifts that Jennifer has stopped sharing with us.  I hope that she can't remove her archived posts.

I hear suffering in the voices of SOLOISTS who are letting off steam. Believing that such venting  is beneficial,  is a fallacy.  This steam is a sign of suffering; suffering that is coming from watering the seeds of anger, planted in early childhood. This source, of one's anger, and not the most recent source, needs to be embraced with mindfulness. I find this in Rand's Philosophical Detection; ie, " Without ruthlessly honest commitment to introspection...What do I feel? and Why do I feel it?"

I don't know yet, if Rand had strategies for achieving this introspection; but I like the methodology of the Buddhist monk, Thich Nhat Hanh, who recommends putting potatoes on to boil, while looking back to the planting of the first seed which has matured to such enormous proportions.  When the potatoes are cooked  (you'll know by the sweet aroma) sit down with friends and eat them. SOLO friends, of course.

Our friend, Michael recognizes his "trailor trash" seed; now if we could get him to "cook some potatoes" while he's in the kitchen, he could show even more love to his beloved Kat. Maybe even see the suffering in those despised ASSHOLES.     How ridiculous that makes me feel.

Getting back to Rand,  the gossip I've read about her leads me to conclude that she, also, had quite an explosive temper.   That's neither here nor there; the question is Doctor Phil's  (How'd that work for her?)

Soctates  has been telling us for centuries     FIRST KNOW THYSELF.  When will we have the ears to hear?

You, Jeff and Joe do a great thing in providing this wonderful public service, at no cost to the public.  The light just came on!   People tend to value what they pay for. Why is this precious real estate (see Hong on another thread) being offered FREE? 

Have you altruistic owners been throwing pearls before swine?   Pigs is pigs        Were you reeling off the "rope" as you waited up there in your virtual board room laughing at our foibles?       Fess up.

As for others who never vituperate; out of fear rather than conscious choice, fear is founded in those same seeds; stop watering them.  We all need to cook some potatoes. I could eat potato salad every day; and sometimes have.

If Ayn Rand has a better idea; for God's sake bring it on.  Why is it being kept secret?


I wish I could sit all you combattants down at the same table, face to face.   When I am queen..................

Sharon

(Edited by Sharon Romagnoli Macdonald on 6/19, 6:38am)


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Post 192

Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 6:36amSanction this postReply
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Nathan,

I agree with you on the foul language issue. Not because I'm a prude; not because I don't, upon occasion in private settings, use coarse language myself. But a public forum -- particularly one supposedly devoted to "the total passion for the total height" -- shouldn't begin to sound like a gang of drunken bottom-feeders on some street corner, jousting for the lowest position in the gutter.

We are drowning in tsunamis of juvenile, nihilistic coarseness in our daily lives -- on buses and subways, on sidewalks, at restaurants, at sporting events, in films and on "reality" TV. And it is juvenile and nihilistic. It is all meant to strike a pose of in-your-face defiance of propriety -- not of particular (and thus perhaps arbitrary) conventions of propriety, but against standards and propriety as such.

Nathan, the best evidence for this is the nasty rejection by some of your simple request for a measure of civility in language here -- and the deliberately mocking obscenities with which that rejection is expressed. That is the response not of mature adults, but the affected posturing of sullen children rebelling against the simple request by their parents to behave like grownups.

I thought Objectivism was more than just another "ism" to be parsed and dissected and debated as a collection of abstractions, apart from one's actions. I thought instead that it was the philosophical explanation of and justification for a new human ideal -- an ideal embodied by Ayn Rand's fictional heroes and heroines, and in the elevated style of her own writing. Her ideal was a celebration of the mind, and of Man at his noblest. But it takes no effort, no thought, no care for nuance or connotation -- in short, no adult sense of responsibility and maturity -- to affect a jailhouse vocabulary.

I recall in one essay that Rand expressed raging anger by saying something like: "A proper response would require the use of the kind of language I do not like to see in print." How much more intelligent and memorable that response, than if she had given in to the urge to be coarse. And yet we find on this "Objectivist" forum not only an abundance of coarseness, but attempts to rationalize it.
 
I've only been a participant on SOLO for about half a year. During that time, I've tried quite hard to craft most of my comments, using a measure of thought and care, and struggling over the precise nuances and connotations of the words I use. I hope it shows. I know that many others here do the same. They are the ones who make visits here worthwhile for me. But others clearly don't bother to try; quite the contrary. In fact, the level of crassness here seems to be escalating. And every time I have to wallow through another intentionally offensive thread, my motivation to remain a participant here wanes.

By way of contrast, I moderate comments on my blog, not for content, but for basic civility of language and courtesy. And as a result, the intellectual quality of the comments I receive is extraordinarily high. It demonstrates that people do rise to adult expectations. You can sample the results for yourself.

Given the recent unhappy events here -- all the direct result of intemperance and bad manners -- I suggest to the SOLO owners that they consider imposing on themselves and other participants -- yes, I said imposing -- some basic standards of maturity and civilized language. If some protest that the simple requirements of post-adolescence might inhibit or squelch their "freedom of expression," then I would answer that they must have precious little worthy of expressing to adults -- and someone needs to tell them to please grow up. 

Or at least to stop talking about "the total passion for the total height."


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Post 193

Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 6:39amSanction this postReply
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Some of the light has gone out of this place.

Jennifer. Jason??.

David in seeking to prove he had a bigger penis than Joe proved only that he was...a dick.

I want to be part of a place where Linz is passionate in defense of a value (Joe). I get passionate about Joe too.

I dont want to second guess Linz about Jennifer. I don't know what went on in private. Were it me I would have apologised in public, for the misunderstanding.

John

Post 194

Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 7:20amSanction this postReply
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Robert


I congratulate you on your forebearance...six months, you say.   That's impressive.   Your sentiments and arguments are mine, exactly.  

We, who live in the country have to call for the super duper septic scooper from time to time; usually about every five years, depending on family size, number of guests, and amount of dirty laundry. It's best to keep on top of things before the septic tank backs up suddenly when there's a house full of guests.  Does any one know the cost of getting a clean-out on a Father's Day Sunday?

 I think I hear the man's truck in the driveway.  Now,  where is that drawing that shows the location of the clean-out hole. Oh my God, it's in the relationship corner of the garden.  Maybe not. Does anybody know when Joe was born?

Some people make ridiculous insults; others carry on with innane remarks.  As I said in an earlier post. Let's find the common ground. AND, keep our eyes on the prize.

I think that you too, are a treasure.
Sharon


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Post 195

Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 8:31amSanction this postReply
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I share the sorrow Linz expressed over the loss of Jennifer and, to a lesser degree, Kelly.  I enjoyed the sense of life of both women.

 

I have not heard much from Jason Dixon in all this.  Have we lost him, too?  If so, that saddens me as well.

 

I cannot honestly say I will miss David Elmore.  His caustic public malevolence against friends and supporters of Objectivism falls squarely at odds with our philosophy for living on Earth.  Did anyone else get the impression he attempted to pull an "Ellsworth Toohey" here by gaining influence with key players while attacking the values of the owners?

 

With the departures of these notables, we will need to post announcements for the club leadership positions the departing parties held.  The SOLO Food Leader role will especially prove itself a very large pair of shoes to fill.

 

Sharon, I appreciate your views about the need for introspection.  Perhaps you can write an article about this.  Since you mention Buddhism, you might want to browse Mudita Journal for insights into the common denominators between Objectivism and Buddhism.

 

Nathan, Sharon and Robert, I support the idea of "raising the bar" for civil language in the forums.  How to implement that challenging standard ultimately remains the call of the owners and principals of SOLO.  I know Linz likes to use colorful profanities himself, so he would have to buy into that notion for this idea to fly.

 

As a side note, Robert Stubblefield years ago granted me permission to copy and to use his "Ten Rules" for posting to the ARI-affiliated Objectivism Study Group for a science list I run called the Hydrino Study Group (HSG).  You can find those here:

 

http://www.hydrino.org/format.php

 

I like this rule:


10. Civilized

 

Articles should not violate the bounds of good taste.  If your article uses language that would keep you from getting invited back to a formal dinner party, you've gone too far.  Please do not confuse vulgarity with candor.  It should go without saying that articles should be legal.  Fraud, slander, libel and blatant copyright violations outside of "fair use" will not be tolerated on HSG.  By the way, the law recognizes all private communications as copyrighted by the author.

I hope we can all take stock of this incident and implement some productive "lessons learned" for the future benefit of all members of SOLO.


Post 196

Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 9:00amSanction this postReply
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I think everyone knows why rules for civility based on specific language will never get enforced consistently.

It's called "KASS", and its greatest proponents will not back down from writing in such a style when empirically verifiable evidence demands it.


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Post 197

Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 9:27amSanction this postReply
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Linz,

Thanks for your explanation and especially for the David Elmore quote. That pretty much says it all to me. Nothing but a power play. Pointedly insulting to Joe Rowlands, who has written some of my favorite SOLO articles. Good riddance, I say, to David Elmore. SOLO is not a cult, as far as I have been able to determine it's founders don't want it to become one. "...cherished kings and queens of solo...", a pointed insult to ALL soloists. Good riddance again, I say. I can see why you blew up. Good for you. This whole issue is NOT about foul language, but a machiavelian attempt to take control of the best site on the web by driving a wedge between it's founders and members. David Elmore is a politician of sorts, not a philosopher.

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Post 198

Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 9:55amSanction this postReply
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Robert Bidinotto's post #192 says it all. I am in 100% agreement with his analysis and with his solution. I too am about ready to sign off this forum, not because I feel personally insulted, but simply because I am sick of being confronted by this steady barrage of crudeness. This behavior is not something I wish to invite into my world. The real issue is not punishment, apologies or moderation. I am more interested in seeing if anyone here can learn anything from this mess and change their behavior accordingly. This is the mark of maturity and I expect it from those who wish to call themselves Objectivists. So far, I have not been encouraged.

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Post 199

Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 10:38amSanction this postReply
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Reading Jeff and Robert's posts I was struck by the degree to which I have been inured to coarse language by working on deliver or else manufacturing lines. While coarse language may be appropriate there outside of mixed company, it is not appropriate in a philosophical forum.

Jim


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