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Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 10:24pmSanction this postReply
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If you think that being associated with libertarian anarchists is one of the worst things for Objectivism's reputation, read this and think again... J

http://www.churchofsatan.com/Pages/SatObj.html


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Post 1

Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 11:20pmSanction this postReply
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Thus, as Satanists do not claim to know the absolute “truth” regarding what is real they are, by definition, not “Objectivists” who hold that reality is totally objective.

Understatement of the century, but there you have it, straight from the horse's (goat's?) mouth.

Interesting, but I can't see this ever being something Objectivists need to be worried about being connected to. If I have one faith in modern society, it is that there does exist a modicum of common sense among ordinary people. No reasonable person would take this correlation seriously.

Post 2

Thursday, May 19, 2005 - 11:34pmSanction this postReply
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Stephen, agreed.  I almost thought of posting this in the humor area.  Although, if Objectivism ever gained prominence in the eyes of the public, at some point the religious Right would be forced to confront it in the realm of ideas.  I could see certain religionists digging up sludge like this in an anti-Objectivist smear attempt.    

Post 3

Friday, May 20, 2005 - 12:47amSanction this postReply
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Hoy lads. A telling response, mine is different.
 
The way I see it Satanists are our spiritual brothers, though not our intellectual ones and for that they are tainted and crippled but for that they are, unlike the comfortably numb masses, unbroken.

Their spirit is our spirit. Here but for the grace of Ayn Rand go us. The Satanists want to live and love and be selfish too, but they have been unable to do what we have done and shake off the weight of Christian tradition that tells them such things are sinful and evil.

Essentially their answer is the Meatloaf one- "If I'm gonna be damned, I want to be damned". If to live for my own sake is evil, I don't want to be good. Consequently they take on the Goth persona with all the makeup and black garb and just totally consecreate their alienation from basically the whole of society. As Plato says, or as George Orwell wrote, the argument is won or lost in the definitions. The Satanist trys to fight certian Christian ideology while accepting the premises of that ideology.
 
"I warm to a man with the bitter drop in him"- Robert E Howard

The world is enchanting and light, but I get along better with somebody who sees the world as enchanting and dark than the brain-dead zombies who are indifferent to the spirit of the universe. Nietzsche has interesting insight on such things, but you get the idea already.


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Friday, May 20, 2005 - 1:22amSanction this postReply
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Aha - a Howard fan........

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Post 5

Friday, May 20, 2005 - 8:06amSanction this postReply
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This is addressed to those Objectivists here who might feel more than a tad of sympathy toward Satanists...or for that matter, toward rationalists, anarchists, or whatever other ideological faction you care to name.

In our thoroughly dichotomized world, it's easy to look at representatives of one half or the other of a given philosophical dichotomy and say, "Well, they do have a point..."  After all, rationalists have respect for "reason," while empiricists claim loyalty to "reality." Conservatives have genuine concern about virtue and means, while liberals proclaim their affinity for values and ends. Platonic Idealists want us all to strive for "something more," while pragmatic Literalists want to explode the fraud of fantasy and focus on the real world of "what works." Nietszchean egoists are subjectivists, but "at least they care about self-interest" -- while Christians are altruists, but "at least they don't view others as utilitarian means to their ends." Etc. Yes, they all "have a point."

Now come the Satanists, who -- while accepting the Christian religion's other-worldly metaphysics and mystical epistemology -- reject its anti-happiness, anti-worldly, deontological ethics, and cast their lot with passionate self-indulgence and its fanciful symbol: Satan.

And Objectivists are supposed to sympathize?

Look, folks: Anyone still alive and breathing always retains at least some connection to reason and reality and self-interest: If he didn't, he'd die at once. Now, we can stare myopically at only the positive, life-affirming premises in his mixture -- no matter how few or peripheral -- and then, through wishful thinking, inflate their significance in order to pretend to ourselves that we have found some kindred soul.

But a false dichotomy is a false dichotomy; and Objectivism is philosophically unique not in synthesizing false dichotomies, but in rejecting them. Objectivism is not a synthesis of rationalism and empiricism, subjectivism and duty, idealism and pragmatism: it is a rejection of all of these positions as built on false premises. In the same vein, Satanists -- like the Christians on the flip side of the religion coin -- are simply wrong in their basic philosophical premises, metaphysical, epistemological and ethical.

The fact that all of these philosophical groups try to make at least some accommodation to reason, reality and self-interest in order not to perish -- and the fact that none of them is ever 100% wrong -- doesn't mean that we should seize upon coincidental points of agreement and pretend to ourselves that we have found philosophical allies. They aren't.

While in our persuasive efforts we should try to avoid unnecessary hostility and rancor, and try to address and build upon whatever good premises a person retains, let's not pretend that by holding some good premises in isolation that he is our philosophical pal.

Objectivism has carved its niche in the intellectual world by offering something unique and distinctive in the competitive marketplace of ideas. Its only chance of becoming a dominant intellectual and cultural force is by never letting anyone -- including ourselves -- forget that it is unique and distinctive.

(Edited by Robert Bidinotto on 5/20, 8:10am)


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Post 6

Friday, May 20, 2005 - 9:58amSanction this postReply
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Robert,
... Objectivism is philosophically unique not in synthesizing false dichotomies, but in rejecting them.
That is a very good stand-alone quote. I am glad someone mentioned that Satatism is based on Christian metaphysics, so the rest should be dismissed and not taken seriously by Objectivists, even where there are agreements by pure chance. There is a corollary to your quote:

Kooks are found everywhere, even in Objectivism.

btw - Just a couple of small questions...

What is that beard of yours really hiding? Would a color photo have a more reddish tinge? How did your makeup man cover those horns so effectively? And would a full body shot show your tail and club foot?

I remember you mentioning that you employed God as an assistant once in a while...

Michael

Post 7

Friday, May 20, 2005 - 10:00amSanction this postReply
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Club foot - nah - cloven hooves.....

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Post 8

Friday, May 20, 2005 - 10:08amSanction this postReply
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Robert M,

How would YOU know? Is there something going on here that I am not aware of? Are you two in cahoots or something?

(Did I just hear thunder in the distance?)

//;-)

Michael


Edit - Is there some kind of diabolical "Robert" connection here maybe?

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 5/20, 10:10am)


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Post 9

Friday, May 20, 2005 - 10:21amSanction this postReply
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Ye Mortals,

Yes, there is a powerful storm raging around Me on the Chesapeake as I write this deathless (muu-wah ha ha!) prose. I do control the weather, you know (see here, text and bottom photo, for incontrovertible proof), and was feeling the need for a little drama. (Also for an excuse not to commute to work in DC today...)

As for My beard: I grew it to disguise My powerful chin. Too many Mortal males around Me, awestruck by the sight of My peerless jawline, became paralyzed with feelings of inadequacy. But growing the beard was no act of mercy: I was simply tired of being hounded by autograph-seekers.


Robert

--Just one of My many names. (Muu-wah ha ha!)





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Post 10

Friday, May 20, 2005 - 10:28amSanction this postReply
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Yea gods, Master! Are you standing there in a church?

Post 11

Friday, May 20, 2005 - 10:28amSanction this postReply
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Robert, excellent post #5.  I sanctioned it. 

Post 12

Friday, May 20, 2005 - 11:07amSanction this postReply
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My teenaged daughter was telling me a couple of weeks ago about this joke going around about how to tell if a teenager is a satanist. It was a list of like ten different things and they were pretty funny... things such as

"Does the teenager like satantic foods such as Count Chocula?"
"Does she wear black lipstick?"

Well anyway Tina and most of her friends met all the criteria and so they must be satanists. So I guess an objectivist can also be a satanist according to the nutjobs who put out that kind of crap.


Post 13

Friday, May 20, 2005 - 12:43pmSanction this postReply
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I do control the weather, you know...
Well for Christ's sake then, man, do something about the weather in New York.  It's as cold as a witch's tit up here.

Your misplaced symbolism does not amuse me.

::::::lightning:::::::


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Post 14

Friday, May 20, 2005 - 12:48pmSanction this postReply
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As for your rather colorful metaphor, Jennifer...why would you think I would object to that?

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Post 15

Friday, May 20, 2005 - 12:50pmSanction this postReply
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Michael, re your question in Post #10:

The weaklings tried to keep me out. But failed.

Muu-wah ha ha.



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Post 16

Friday, May 20, 2005 - 12:52pmSanction this postReply
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Oh, and thank you, Pete. Appreciate the little check mark.

Post 17

Friday, May 20, 2005 - 1:14pmSanction this postReply
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The website whatisobjectivism.com actually links to LaVeyan Satanism as a "Related Ideology" from this page... just a few lines below "Robert James Bidinotto - list of articles".

Coincidence?
:-)

Next thing you know, there will be anarchosatanicreationists knocking on the door....


PS
Wikipedia's List of Satanists...

Sammy Davis Jr. ???

Post 18

Friday, May 20, 2005 - 1:19pmSanction this postReply
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Robert [#5], this is one of the best posts I've seen recently. It points out a prevalent mistake, indicates a direction for activism (don't forget to point out our uniqueness, what we are not), and is well-written and not too wordy, plus gives great examples.

Writers: study this post for selection of a spectrum of examples & how much can be contained in few words without vagueness or loss of clarity.

Phil

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Post 19

Friday, May 20, 2005 - 12:45pmSanction this postReply
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Hang on a minute mate,-
stare myopically at only the positive, life-affirming premises in his mixture -- no matter how few or peripheral -- and then, through wishful thinking, inflate their significance in order to pretend to ourselves that we have found some kindred soul.
That's a false characterisation of those who might feel more than a tad of sympathy toward Satanists. Much of what you say is right and fine, but fine words butter no parsnips.

It is impossible in matters touching practical life to be consistently wrong, which is one reason why we can nearly always find something agreeable in another's conception of life. A second reason is that even fools, by chance, are sometimes right. So we are agreed.

There will be no argument from me that Objectivism has intellectual allies anywhere. We are at war. We are alone.

However, there's a big difference between our enemies and the brain-dead fog. I'm talking about the wim-worshippers, the sanctioners, the victims- or, as it was put in the 1st Xmen movie, with compassion few of us can generate, "the uninformed". To encapsulate Nietzsche, there are three groups: The Good, The Bad and The Ugly. This group is The Ugly, they're not bad- they're just so much fog. The Objectivist, he is The Good. And when it comes to respect "I like the man with the bitter drop" , The Bad. He stands for something. He is a player, the ugly are the played. We are at war, it is honorable.

Immediately I have sympathy toward Satanists, at least they're not sitting on the fence. But neither are countless other conception of life standpoints, some of which you name.

However, unlike the conceptions of life you name there is a uniqueness that marks out Satanism for just a little bit more sympathy- to me. It is their sense of life. Though their spirit is dangerous and drunk and defeated and corroded by failure and envy and hate,
unguided, unprepared and un-Objectivist it is their point of similarity with us. Our passionate spirit is in bleak contrast to their tortured and caged one- but still, there it is.

Surely of all the attributes to have in common the sense of life burning inside is worth a little extra respect than other commonalities like self-interest, virtue ethics, logic, pride, heroism, man as an end in himself, universal suffrage, work-ethic, political equality, honesty,  efficaciousness of art or all other things that Objectivism might share with other conceptions of life. Surely a sense of life is the sum total of all of these lesser things.

For all their ignorance, misdirection and Puritanical baggage these guys refuse to lay down and submit. It's as if a semi-paralysed man, who might have been hurt in a horse-riding accident, refused the paralysis expected of him and strove to walk just the same. Or like a fictional heroine dieing but choosing to crawl on in the snow.

They are unique among The Bad in their passionate sense of life and have too much heart, have overcome too much suffering for me not to feel more than a tad of sympathy toward Satanists.

"If I'm gonna be damned, I wanna be damned". They're as misguided as any we're at war with but by god they know the pathos of life! Satanists, if you had but chosen the right philosophy what Objectivists you'd have made!

ps If  IOS/TOC had the fire of Satanists what Objectivists they'd make


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