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Post 140

Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 11:45amSanction this postReply
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Damn MK,

 

Don’t you have a sense for the dramatic; for the big build up? What would we have if Calaf rushed in with the answers to the riddles in first act? No one would get their heads chopped off. That’s what! And we wouldn’t have had that awesome double metaphorical moment when one suitor heads (pun intended) towards oblivion and Calaf heads, northward, (another pun intended) towards living exaltation; both ringing out “Turandot”. 

 

Or if Galt had no sense of timing, and just blurted out everything to Eddie in the beginning; Eddie and Cheryl would still be alive today!

 

And, damn, Agatha Christie would be out of business.

 

Well, I guess you can argue that this is real life and you’re being kind.

 

BTW, I haven’t written a treatise on artistic license yet: in which a true artist can do anything they like without any rhyme or reason.

 

The Painter

(Edited by Newberry on 4/20, 11:47am)


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Post 141

Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 1:51pmSanction this postReply
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Namesake!!!

I am so sorry!

My timing is completely off from running after zillions of dollars so I can buy paintings...

To make it up, here is some serious opera. This whole thread reminded me of a story I read in a book on famous opera disasters once (sorry - can't remember the name or author). I think this happened at the San Francisco Opera a couple of decades ago.

They were producing Tosca and it was the last opera of the season. This usually happens with Tosca because season budgets are pretty thin pickings by then. Tosca has a small cast - very little chorus - and a mere non-singing firing squad at the end. So it is comparatively cheap to produce.

What happens in the story is that Cavaradossi, the hero, is to be subject to a mock execution, then run off with Tosca, the girl the good guy is supposed to get at the end, and they live happily ever after. So they both think. Who set this charade up was the chief of the secret police, the dastardly Scarpia, who wanted to hunker down on Tosca and traded her boody for Cavaradossi's hide.

But Tosca didn't play by the rules and stabbed Scarpia in the heart (killing him) at get-down time. Scarpia didn't play fair either because he had the firing squad load up with real bullets. He just didn't live to see Cavaradossi get shot dead from his dirty trick. So when Tosca tries to waken Cavaradossi, she finds he really did bite the big one, and, grief stricken, hurls herself off a very high wall they call a parapet to her death while the orchestra kicks ass.

That's the way it's supposed to be.

Apparently this particular season was tough. Lots of emergencies all season long, but opening night for Tosca finally came. The director was frantic from almost running out of money and time. He had at least obtained a bargain-basement firing squad from a local college football team. He didn't rehearse them - what for? They didn't sing.

During the first two acts, these football players, strutting around backstage in their fancy threads, kept coming over and worrying him to death with, "When do we go on?" and "Who do we shoot?" and "Are the guns really loaded?" and so on. Since the director was going nuts making a small miracle happen that night, he kept putting them off.

Finally the end of the third act arrived and he called the young men over to give them instructions - something like, "On cue, you march out on stage, slowly raise your rifles and, on another cue, shoot the principal."

So off they went.

Then they came back.

"What do we do then?" The director, frantic because their cue was coming up, told them to exit with the principals, which is a standard instruction for minor characters. Then he impatiently shooed them away.

Here is what happened:

On cue, these decked-out hunks sauntered on stage. They started to raise their rifles but stopped dead in their tracks. There was no "principal." There were two principals. A man and a woman. Both were looking at them.  Hmmmm. What to do? They chose the guy.

The music was kicking ass and Cavaradossi stuck out his chest in a melodramatic heroic-tragic pose. The football players think that a guy about to be tackled wouldn't react like that at all, so they swung their guns over at Tosca. Of course, she started making all kinds of "no" signals at them without trying to be too obvious to the public.

Bingo. She's the one all right. So on cue, they opened fire on her with all they had while Cavaradossi, at the other end of the stage, toppled over mortally wounded.

They watched perplexed as the rest unfolded. Once Tosca climbed onto the parapet, sang, "O Scarpia, avanti a Dio!" and hurled herself off, they looked at each other and shrugged. She was the last principal alive on stage and they were supposed to exit with her. So the obedient firing squad committed mass suicide - one-by-one - jumping off the parapet.

(pause for reflection...)



Now let this be a lesson to all football players who sign up for the firing squad on SOLO.

Michael Stuart Kelly - Newberry Groupie

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 4/20, 1:55pm)


Post 142

Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 2:58pmSanction this postReply
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Dude Descending A Staircase:




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Post 143

Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 7:10pmSanction this postReply
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Sam,

I am drooling to see this thing but for some reason it does not appear on my browser - and graphics usually all show up.

Could you try again - I have a feeling that it is very much worth contemplating...

Michael


Post 144

Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 8:11pmSanction this postReply
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Does anyone else have a problem with viewing this? It's in GIF format.


Post 145

Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 9:02pmSanction this postReply
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Yep. :(

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Post 146

Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 9:06pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

It is telling that you're apologism of Newberry's rhetorical atrocities has taken the form of extremely extended, incomprehensible metaphor.  It's bad enough that every one of his posts required a team of slavish groupies to decipher and interpret and explain the "true meaning" of, while the clear (indefensible) thesis of polemic was conveniently ignored and evaded. Now it requires lengthy extended metaphors. Next thing, somebody's going to post a novel to explain "what's truly happening here, what we're really trying to get at." And if *that* doesn't clear it up, then surely a 9-part television mini-series will. You can produce it.

Sorry Colonel Sanders, but I have a very machete-centered policy toward groupies.

Alec


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Post 147

Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 9:17pmSanction this postReply
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Just a side to help Sam Erica: You posted a picture from your own hard drive, which those of us on the internet have no access to. You need to upload the picture onto the internet.

Try uploading your picture here and linking the url the site gives you to this thread.

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Post 148

Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 9:39pmSanction this postReply
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Alec,

I'm gonna let you off right now because you dig Tina.

That goes a long way in my book...

Almost as much as the "L" word does around here...

Michael



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Post 149

Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 3:10amSanction this postReply
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Excellent precis of what went on, Alec.

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Post 150

Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 5:31amSanction this postReply
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Hi Alec,

 

I am sorry that this thread has frustrated you so that you would like to take a machete to the so-called “groupies”, which is an irony, since I honor the “groupies” for their intelligence, wisdom, experience, passion, and generosity.

 

Since you do not appreciate my unorthodoxed style of explanation I will communicate what I have been saying all along in a sound bite:  

 

Artistic integrity wins.

 

Do you really want to rush in with a mental machete and slash away at why that is not true?

 

What I wish I could express to you is this: if you have the capacity for intellectual or personal heroism, pick your role models carefully—look at their whole lives and how they ended their careers and think about if that is the kind of way you would love to live your life.

 

Kelly, on another thread mentioned that she would like to see herself tanned, gray, in shape, and holding a basket of herbs. I see myself late in life quite differently. How would you like to see yourself 60 years from now?

 

Michael

(Edited by Newberry on 4/21, 5:33am)


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Post 151

Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 6:06amSanction this postReply
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Michael said "Artistic integrity wins"
 
All in all I look for value. While Lanza may (and I have no knowlege beyond what I've read here on SOLO) have made choices that didn't refelct the idea of "artistic integrity" he obviously created many very moving and beautiful performances. Again, I'm going on what I've read here, as I have yet to hear any Lanza.

In the end, artists such as Cage may have more artistic integrity in there pursuit of their careers, but if they are producing crap, what's the point! There is no intrinsic value in integrity if it leads to crap. For his own life Cage acheived his values, as he should. To the rest of us it means nothing  if we don't share the values he espouses. Having heard Cage I can safely say that I don't share his values.

I am reminded of a line from O:TPOAR where it was said (paraphrased) that a single idea plucked from the middle of a philosophic system is useless. Context, again, is everything. Having integrity to your values, without the right values is pointless.

Ethan

EDITED: for Comma relief (I use too many of the damn things at times!)

(Edited by Ethan Dawe on 4/21, 6:53am)


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Post 152

Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 6:11amSanction this postReply
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Artistic integrity does not win. Neither does an A for effort.

I don't much care for some platonic view of what Lanza, for example, *could* have been.

Christo, Duchamp, Cage may have artistic integrity in that their anti-man, nihilistic world view is expressed *perfectly* in their products.

As much as I admire *you* Michael Newberry, and *your* work, I think this thread suffers because the original argument was flawed.


John

Post 153

Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 6:38amSanction this postReply
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Dude Descending a Staircase

http://img238.exs.cx/img238/5378/dudedescendingstaircaseno27vj.gif


Post 154

Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 6:43amSanction this postReply
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There is no intrinsic value in integrity if it leads to crap.
Ethan I loved this line!

Jason


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Post 155

Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 6:46amSanction this postReply
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Forgive me, I haven't followed all of this, and perhaps the point has already been made, or made better than I will now.

But I think Michael Newberry's take on this issue is due to his perspective as (primarily) a producer of art, while most of us non-artists here approach it as consumers. The values that an artist would take from his fellow artists might include inspiration from their professional challenges and successes; these wouldn't matter much, if at all, to someone whose only interest is the quality of their work.

The premium that Michael places on "artistic integrity" -- the uncompromising loyalty of an artist to his own vision -- is not as relevant to the consumer of art, who is interested not primarily in the artist's biography or struggle, but in the rewards that he gets from contemplating a given work.
Personally, I know of a number of writers whose work I don't like, but whose career struggles revealed personal virtues that are inspiring to me as a professional writer. So I can sympathize with Michael's perspective as a "producer."

As a consumer of art, however, I totally agree with the indignant response of Lindsay and others about the execrable works of Cage and other postmoderns. I can admire, in the abstract, loyalty to one's vision; but if it's the vision of a subjectivist, vandal or psychopath, I have to drastically compartmentalize that admiration.

I really don't think there's much divergence here on aesthetics. I do think there's confusion because we're evaluating different things. Perhaps if we distinguish between the perspective of the artist and of the audience for art, and also distinguish our assessments of the artist and his work, we might find that there's less of an aesthetics chasm here than we thought.


(Edited by Robert Bidinotto
on 4/21, 7:02am)


Post 156

Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 6:49amSanction this postReply
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To Alec, Ethan, and John: Great posts, one and all. And Ethan: any time you want an MP3 of Lanza in knockout form, just let me know. He may not have artistic integrity in the eyes of the Newberrians, but my life would be a hell of a lot poorer without him & the vocal soulmates he inspired.

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Post 157

Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 7:00amSanction this postReply
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Sam Erica,

ROFL.

That was so damn funny that I want to help you out here. I wish that I could put this into your own post, but I can't, and many will not click on your link. So I am putting it here.

Folks, this is DUDE DESCENDING A STAIRCASE.

SAM ERICA is the one to blame for this. Not the Dude-Champ.

(Why do I think about Michael Jackson?)




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Post 158

Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 7:46amSanction this postReply
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Robert B - refer back to post 127.. unless you think Rand was in error on this, then - sorry Michael - integrity is NOT loyalty to irrationality - and Cage et al dealt with irrationality... ergo, they did NOT have integrity.

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Post 159

Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 8:28amSanction this postReply
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Robert B,

As usual, your comments are right on the money. Producer/consumer. That's it.

(I am still laughing over the word "compartmentalize" though - I didn't know you had a diplomatic streak in you...) 

You wrote:
I really don't think there's much divergence here on aesthetics.
There has been none whatsoever. Absolutely none. Everybody around here loves Romantic. Everybody hates Post Modern. We all agree.

There have been three other subtexts (other than producer/consumer viewpoints), however, that have clouded the issues on this thread:

1. Some people will not cotton to ANYTHING AT ALL said positively about Cage, Duchamp & PM Co., regardless of what or how it is said - they seem to go into automatic kill mode at the mere mention of these names.

2. There is a VERY LOYAL constituency around here of the Hambone Corner Club who will not, under any circumstance, in any manner, shape of form, admit to ANY publically expressed opinion except worshipful adoration of a certain singer whose name starts with "L." This has taken on the manifest force of an existential absolute. You can see these dudes hanging out together devouring selected morsels of "L" flourishes with relish... (... and mustard and ketchup...).

(Shit! Here I go running for cover too... All right! All right! I also get off on the "L" dude sometimes, guys! Stop throwing stuff!)

3. The collective bloodlust normally seen at public hangings.


Michael Stuart Kelly - Newberry Groupie




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