About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Forward one pageLast Page


Post 20

Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 7:47amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Re: the bloodflow thing.

Well, really what we're talking about is sometimes referred to as image therapy, when it is used in hospital settings. Obviously, once it is established that a patient can be taught to have some control over their bloodflow (in this case using the image therapy, which to me looks just like dynamic visualization), possible applications emerge, depending on the patient's malady. I dunno- improving circulation in week areas. Maybe headaches... I'm sure they work on different things. Whatever would be served by working with the bloodflow.

But I also want to point out that image therapy is not limited to that. It is used in many other areas, including rehabilitation and pain management. The thing with bloodflow is that apparently that is the easiest, which I believe.

(Edited by Rich Engle on 9/27, 7:50am)

(Edited by Rich Engle on 9/27, 7:51am)


Post 21

Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 9:37amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
That's called biofeedback, isn't it?

Post 22

Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 2:05pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
It's in the territory. But it can be taught without using monitoring gear.
(Edited by Rich Engle on 9/27, 2:05pm)


Sanction: 8, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 8, No Sanction: 0
Post 23

Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 2:33pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Why a group of individualists would bad-mouth a category of books/courses which purport to help people become more effective and happy is beyond me. Now, to be sure, alot of self help IS navel gazing. But alot of it specifically teaches and specifically motivates its targets to, as Andy says, 'get off your ass and do something about it.' Not everyone is born with extreme motivation and self-possession. Some are born with it, but are beaten down by bad people. For those who desire success and are not born with tendencies which foster it, it CAN and SHOULD be learned. To me, there is nothing more heroic than someone who, floating in a sea of bad premises, get their life together, loses weight, gets a better job, lets those in his life know that he loves them, and GOES FOR IT, no matter what the self-defined 'IT' is. Very individualistic, very heroic.

All Objectivsits know that an individual is responsible for his emotional state. It might take someone listening to an Anthony Robbins' seminar to get you to REALLY accept it and apply it.

All Objectivists know that you must have well defined goals to make progress. It might take reading 'Think and Grow Rich' to find a particular method and to get motivated and believe it is necessary 'all the way down.'

Post 24

Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 9:00pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Very true - is why I read Branden's works... they crystalized some notions within me that while were there, hadn't taken the significance needed to be integrated within other conscious understandings... indeed, for that matter, the same can be said of the non-fiction writings of Rand...
(Edited by robert malcom on 9/27, 9:02pm)


Post 25

Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 3:07amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ayn Rand would hate these "self-help" charlatans in the same way she despised the oily PR men of Mobil. "Ghastly" she called them. One look at Anthony Robbins & I throw up. One mention of "dynamic visualisation" & I defecate. There's a difference between glib smarm & gutsy rationality, between Californian psycho-babble & Galt's-Gulch authenticity. This theme needs to be developed. Work in progress. I commend Joe Maurone for this thread.

Linz

Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 26

Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 5:55amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Linz, with all due respect, this smacks of snap-judgment-without-the-facts. I AGREE that Anthony Robbins comes off as smarmy and self-congratulatory. Some of his ideas are garbage. And, as I said, alot of self-help is pure garbage. That does not mean that everything that comes out of his mouth is wrong or is not helpful. In fact, his work is extremely derivative. But he motivates people to get up off their asses and improve their lives. What's wrong with that? There is nothing wrong and everything right with anything that gets people to take action to improve their lives. Your attitude on the matter strikes me as a rather typically-Objectivist prejudice--that everyone should be born or have some innate sense of what the correct thing to do it, and enough self-possession and confidence to carry on against impossible odds. If this were true, and everyone was like this, then why are Roark and Dagny heroic characters? Is there only one path to a heroic life? Would a stop in Communistville invalidate someone who later clears up their premises? If not, then why would self-doubt or confusion on other matters or premises invalidate one's path to being an effective person?

Post 27

Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 5:57amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
"There's a difference between glib smarm & gutsy rationality, between Californian psycho-babble & Galt's-Gulch authenticity."

Here, we agree.

Post 28

Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 6:01amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
What the hell is dynamic visualization?

Post 29

Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 6:18amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
"That does not mean that everything that comes out of his mouth is wrong or is not helpful."

Scott, would YOU like to swallow the poison without just a little big of sugar? Antifreeze has a sweet taste, but it will kill the cat.(Easy, Michael.)



Post 30

Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 6:20amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
"What the hell is dynamic visualization?"

Picture it, Sicily, 1942...

Sanction: 14, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 14, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 14, No Sanction: 0
Post 31

Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 9:15amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Defending self-help, pscychotherapy, and introspective or self-improvement effort:

Scott is right about the value of self-help books or speakers which motivate you. Or give you a needed boost or help you more clearly see the goal you want which may have receded into the distance. (And it is simply obvious, and does not require further argument at least by me, that you can't dismiss a whole category or field of knowledge.)

But there is a deeper value, which applies not just to the self-help category but to professions such as psychotherapy, to partly self-help and partly theory books such as those of Branden, and to work you do on your own in psychological self-improvement.

Freud made an important contribution toward making psychology a science. He discovered the existence, importance, (and quirkiness) of the subconscious. His specific conclusions about its content (inherent war between id and ego and superego, various strange sexual and defecatory conclusions) were false and, to use an advanced psychotherapeutic term, "whacked".

But here's the thing: Our minds start processing and storing sense impressions, concepts and language we "pick up", moods and attitudes, fears and hopes, from birth and all through childhood --- long before we develop 'garbage filters', the ability to assess logically. And long before Objectivism.

So we need to go back and sift thru the garbage dump. Adults, including Objectivists, end up with wrong ideas we were taught, wrong values, unhealthy emotions and attitudes.

We didn't grow up in a rational culture and that left its marks from earliest days.

And here is the problem and the need for therapies, good self-help books, and coaches and lessons in how to introspect:

It is hard and slow and stumbling block filled work to separate the emotions from their causes, the bad or defeatist or hostile attitudes from wrong evaluations which led to them, the bad childhood and the disheartening parents and peers from the possibility of a more sunlit set of surroundings in the future.

Not only do most people including most Objectivists not ever fully get past these legacies from the past, buried in the subconscious, but most don't even fully know or admit they are there.

Or know how to excise and heal them ... or replace the wounds with 'healthy tissue.'

The thing that made me sit up and take notice was something Peikoff once said in passing as a classroom teacher: Psychotherapy is not just for people who are 'sick' or have serious problems. It is for everyone. Every one of us can improve our mental processing, our attitudes. Maybe we just need a little polishing of the rough edges?

Ah, I immediately said. Ok. I'm not "sick". But I can certainly improve. I'm going to give it a shot. And I started soon after...

You can be better than you are, even if you have no 'mental illness'. More confident. Less angry. Less fearful of involvement or effort or major changes. Less easily bruised or impeded. More benevolent or friendly or socially skilled.

And, as I learned later, you can't do it all alone.

It's not only about volition or get-off-your-but ism. Just as success in any area of life requires knowledge and the right sequence or steps. You can't just directly or instantly -will- changes and understanding to happen. You need a traffic cop, or advisor who has been there before, whether in the form of a book or a therapist or a counselor.

Why?

Because your mind and subconscious is flooded with material and you have the tendency to veer off into tangents or away from unpleasant mucking around considering past mistakes or bad mental or emotional habits. You need a traffic cop or a hall monitor. An outside perspective. A rudder to keep you on course.

And the thing about the subconscious... It's buried!! That's what it means to be SUB conscious - not directly available on the conscious level.

You need to learn ways to get back in touch with the relevant stuff which you have either repressed or simply forgotten or been too busy to think about. Unpleasant stuff from childhood. How a parent treated you which you buried in fear or lack of understanding decades ago but which still affects you today. Your first romantic encounter or rejection. Or a very traumatic love affair. Or unrequited love or a yearning that has never been met or fully understood. A great loss or a defeat. Maybe even something that came too easily and you didn't learn enough from to be able to replicate. Or a time when you failed to try or when your efforts were not enough. A great betrayal or disappointment. An addiction or merely a mildly self-destructive habit.

A prison you made for yourself in your own mind.

All deadly serious things.

Rand spoke of "moral ambitiousness." Part of that is psychological ambitiousness.

Philip Coates

Post 32

Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 9:20amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
" Scott, would YOU like to swallow the poison without just a little big of sugar? "

Why would you equate information meant to help people reach their potential as poison?

Post 33

Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 9:25amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Luke,
The problem is that some people, who know all that, still have trouble motivating themselves to take action.
Very true.  But don't you think that if a person is truly motivated by what he gets out of a self-help book, what he really has gained is knowledge of some smidgen of philosophy?  The gimmicks of the self-help industry only work in the long haul if a person becomes aware of both the philosophical principles underlying them and the correctness of those principles.

My disdain for the self-help industry is the same as for psychology.  They offer counseling (whether good or bad) on false pretenses, emotionalism and science respectively.  Neither provide help that a person cannot get from himself or trusted friends and family.  I don't begrudge the good a person gets out of either self-help or psychology.  I do hope that the good is more than ephemeral because of the lack of solid grounding in reality either approach has.

Andy


Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 34

Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 9:30amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Linz,
Ayn Rand would hate these "self-help" charlatans in the same way she despised the oily PR men of Mobil. "Ghastly" she called them. One look at Anthony Robbins & I throw up.
You say this, and I think what a delight it would be to have the grand ol' gal pronounce upon the blights of our age like therapeuticism, postmodernism, and the New Age.  There are plenty of conservative commentators who do a good job, but Ayn Rand had a way of cutting to the bone when it came to this sort of tomfoolery.  Oh well, time marches on.

Andy


Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 35

Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 1:47pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
My post #31 is a bit long and not as interesting as Ayn Rand's sex life.

But in it I explain in detail why "moral ambitiousness" means you must be psychologically ambitious as well.

And why people need to read self-help books instead of pooh-poohing them wholesale and/or need to explore other resources for untangling their psychology and the hidden premises and attitudes acquired early on. And why, no, you are not 'perfect' without it simply by virtue of your conscious mind having accepted Objectivism and willing yourself to be fully rational.

Or fully happy.

Phil

Post 36

Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 2:42pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Someday, more people will realize how useful it can be to have an Objectivist around, due to their distinctly superior abilities to cut to the core of things, figure out what it's really about. With that, though, often  comes the problem that emerges along with any great power- in sales training (woo woo) it is part of what is called "the dummy factor". In essence, the dummy factor points out that a neophyte sales person almost inevitably will (at first) outperform the more seasoned, because they do not have the prejudgment of negative experience as so strong a limiter. Literally, more possibilities exist  for them, because they allow them to. They don't know you can't.

The thing is, instead of just throwing out the baby with the bathwater, Objectivists are more inclined to drown the baby in its own bathwater.

Tony Robbins is a snotty, self-consumed fuck, there is no doubt about this. On the other hand, though, he brought forward some excellent tools in his potpourri of a book called "Absolute Power".  My opinion is its the only book he ever needed to write. It included some very strong breathing and focusing techniques, and, of course, dynamic visualization techniques. What are these, indeed?

I guess that technically, it would fall under the line of NLP (Neuro Linguistic Programming), but only on paper. Dynamic visualization is probably best known as a tool of choice for many professional athletes. You see them doing it all the time- mentally running through the steps over and over as they plan to make them happen. They are seeing the whole picture in their minds (that's the visualization part). But lots of people use it- concert musicians and conductors come to mind. Race car drivers. There are some basic protocols that you learn.

I could see some beneficial applications in the Objectivist community in the area of developing more advanced interpersonal skills. Specifically, developing communication skills that specifically address personality types. Learning how to recognize basic personality types.

Mainly because of being in business for so long, I've been through many different kinds of training and personal development courses. Actually, I'm certified to train in a few of them.  I never thought of them as "self-help". Personal development. Big difference.

Some of them, though, OH MY GAWD. Talk about training the trainer. There was a particularly unpleasant experience where one of my employers had paid a large sum to a consultant to administer sales training, and he started out by pulling out my least favorite sales bromide, which is "Perception is reality."
I had had enough of this guy in the first fifteen minutes of meet and greet anyway. I just didn't like him, I'll admit it. I decided to fuck with him, down to the NLP level if need be.  I kid you not, it went like this, and didn't stop for two days. I was bored with the crap, so I used the time in practicing classic NLP drilldowns.

"Perception, then, is reality"
"No it's not. Reality is reality"
"You don't understand my point"
"Oh, but I do. You are saying that B=A. A thing is another thing. That isn't so. That means a foot can be a hand."
"No, I didn't mean it that way...."
"What did you mean, then?"
"I meant that how the customer perceives you is more important than anything else."
"So, no matter what I do, if he 'perceives' something else, I'm out of luck. And anyway, there have to be more important things than what he thinks."
"You almost had it in the first part."
"Well, this seems like an educational issue to me, assuming he's not mentally ill, or blind or deaf, or something... But perception isn't reality."
"Well, you're entitled to your opinion."
"It's not my opinion, it's reality. A=A, not this other thing. Here, why don't we just be honest and put it this way- reality is overrated in certain situations. How's that?"
"You could look at it that way."
"Do you look at it that way?"
"I'm not sure, it depends"
"And...?"
"And we have to take each thing as it comes..."
"So..."
"So we have to look at every customer encounter differently"
"Differently? Is that a perception thing? Different every time? So you're never sure of anything...how does that make you feel?"
"It makes me feel.... wait. We're way off track here..."


Post 37

Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 3:12pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ha, ha. NOW we're talking benevolence!!! Did you keep it up till his head exploded? :-)

(Solo Benevolence Leader)

Post 38

Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 3:15pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
More seriously, Rich, really great point about the 'dummy factor'. Too often we're defeated by what we think we can't do or a goal we think is too high up and too far away and the walls too many. A self-help books technique that works is to break it down into tiny steps and only work on one at a time.

Post 39

Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 4:19pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Scott, why would I equate information meant to help people as poison? I wouldn't, that's not what I said. That's like saying if you don't support socialism you want to hurt people.
What I am calling poison is the motivations, the agendas, behind the "self help" movement/industry. The motivations of those who "claim" to want to help when in reality their agenda is social control (i.e. John Gray's feminizing men on behalf of women, the gender-neutral push for boy's play and development.) Rand wrote about this method before, if they were to come right out and admit the agenda, they'd be destroyed, so they have to pepper the program with dashes of helpful ideas. (If I'm sounding paranoid, re-read Tibor's piece about KGB propaganda to destroy the West's values.)

Or, more realistically, most of these people have no real credentials and are out to make a quick buck selling self-help snake oil. The less they know, the larger their picture on the cover of the book. And, of course, they have to have some worthwhile things to say to get people interested, like snake oil salesman, they gotta grab your attention. But it's usually not original with them. And most self-help books have the same lasting fly by night quality, here today, gone tomorrow, replaced by the next fad. Know what's big now? The PURPOSE DRIVEN LIFE. Why? Because it was read to a house burgler by the victim and it changed his life. Next year it will be some other flavor of the month.



Post to this threadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.