About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Forward one pageLast Page


Post 80

Saturday, December 26, 2009 - 7:52pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Teresa,

Great point about Stargate.

Ed

Post 81

Saturday, December 26, 2009 - 7:56pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jay,
I am persuaded by your argument. Avatar is not going away, millions of people will be impressed by it. If anything, it will provide an opportunity to discuss capitalism as the association of free traders, not a heavily regulated state corporatism indistinguishable from fascism. I will try to view it sooner rather than later.

Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 82

Saturday, December 26, 2009 - 8:47pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
The film's anti-business/anti-capitalist message is unavoidably there and obviously despicable, but also, at this point - since it has been used so many movies and with so few variations - it is a worn out clicheŽ. Who can't find dozens of ways how this is a simplistic and inaccurate portrayal of virtually all business' - easily reads like bad propaganda. It is, and appropriately so, mockable. We get to choose what is important to take from the film, and we can always point others in the right direction.

jt
(Edited by Jay Abbott on 12/26, 8:52pm)


Sanction: 28, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 28, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 28, No Sanction: 0
Post 83

Saturday, December 26, 2009 - 10:55pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

I just saw this danged thing.

Here is the worst line of the movie, spoken by the science character (played by Sigourney Weaver):

There are more connections in this forest than are found in a human brain.

This quote is dripping with the insinuation that man is small and insignificant (or like a stain on "nature"), and that "nature" is sacred and deserves supreme reverence.

Ed


I took this differently, that is, as an asinine cop-out by Cameron. With half a brain he knows that 'noble savage' nonsense for what it is, he wouldnt have the technology to make movies in the first place, so there is only so much glorification of a pre-industrialized society he could get away with. Instead, he presented a pathetic cop-out which was a society which did not *need* industrialization at all, but obscured all this behind the common 'noble savage' myth of 'dances with wolves', etc.

What Grace (Sigourney Weaver's character) was saying was that all that nonsense everything is connected mumbo jumbo they are talking about actually was TRUE in the case of this planet and the societies on it. The Trees had electro-chemical connections between each other, billions of them, and there were billions of trees, and virtually all the animals had some kind of goofy natural 'uplink' ability. And when you died, your memories and your essence was essentially uploaded into the network of trees. And that this 'inter-connectedness' was testable and provable and verifiable.

This is not a PRE industrial society, but a society that is a-industrial, it has no need for it. It has literally achieved a high standard of living, incredible health (the mother tree thing could heal even terrible injuries) and even a heaven like immortality (the uploading of consciousness into the trees) and with that even a real 'god' like entity, which every individual could regularly communicate with, along with all their own ancestors.

That's why it was such a lame cop-out on Cameron's part. He knows how horrible and brutish and painful an actual pre-industrial society would be, so paints the picture of one to allure the audience with it's beauty and glory, but obfuscates all the negative through making all that 'in harmony with nature' bullshit every native peoples embrace actually real and actually produce tangible material results. I found that aspect in particular disgusting, insulting, and asinine.



Sanction: 11, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 11, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 11, No Sanction: 0
Post 84

Sunday, December 27, 2009 - 7:01amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
You're right, Michael!

In reality, thoughtful production (action based on reason) is man's answer to the problem of survival. Cameron wished-away reality and he threw out this inescapable problem of survival. He created Pandora as a place where thoughtful production was no longer needed. He re-wrote reality so that the humanoids would not have to be conscious at any level higher than an animal.

He did this, as you say, to hide the fact that savage life isn't at all wonderful. He did it to appeal to folks who are mentally lazy and do not want to deal with the responsibility of thoughtful production (and trade). He appealed to the anti-conceptual, concrete-bound thinker who takes everything existing as a given, and who longs for a "return to the womb" (infantile safety and security).

Ed



Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 85

Sunday, December 27, 2009 - 8:57amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Great article by Joe Maurone at Superhero Babylon:

"Avatar's Savage Message" and the Prog-Rock Revival


Post 86

Sunday, December 27, 2009 - 9:14amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Awesome article, Joe!

Ed


Post 87

Sunday, December 27, 2009 - 9:43amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Joe submitted it here, but I had to reject it because the link was wrong.  I'm waiting to see if he wants me to resubmit it, or if he's like to resubmit himself.  It is very good.


Post 88

Sunday, December 27, 2009 - 9:53amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Thanks, Bob, Ed and Teresa. Got your message, Teresa, please do.

Sanction: 17, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 17, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 17, No Sanction: 0
Post 89

Sunday, December 27, 2009 - 12:26pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jay:

I think people sometimes make personal choices in how they wish to weight that knowledge.


It doesn't mean that those personal choices are always proper when weighing that knowledge. An opinion does not automatically deserve respect. Only opinions that are derived from rational analysis deserve respect, and only when that analysis does not omit known facts in an attempt to rationalize them away when they inconveniently contradict the conclusion.

You willfully choose to ignore the messages the artist intended to portray, even messages that were explicit and undeniable. This behavior does not deserve respect at all, it is evasion, and it is nothing less than willful ignorance. And that you then choose to turn around and belittle others here for "reaching too far" is incredibly insulting. Why? Because the attitude is anti-intellectual, it's a denigration of reason all together.

I only think that those are not necessarily the only, or even the most important messages to be taken from the film. Moreover, I don't think the audiences of this film will automatically take those messages.....Films such as Avatar reflect many of the things we don't like to see, but they usually make their money by piggy-backing upon some recognizable core value or belief that people will universally respond to.


Well I don't know "most people" to know what messages they will get out of it. What I do know is the explicit messages the film gives, those being a pro-green, noble savage, anti-industrialization message. And quite frankly that this is a very pervasive belief in our culture today is undeniable and the movie is just a reaffirmation of this meme. So what "core belief" will people recognize here? Since a great deal of Americans have latched on to this new age green myth, I wonder if you're just deluding yourself into thinking what message movie-goers will take from this.

And considering many of the film reviews and popular media outlets seemed to have also picked up on that too, it begs the question how you have come to the conclusion most people don't recognize the same thing? Do you just think most people are like you?


So, we can go out and tell people, who've enjoyed this film, that it has no redeeming values - or we can tell them that (despite its dishonest portrayal of business) it is a good example of the importance of defending one's individual rights to life, liberty, or property.


What do you mean property? What do you mean rights? To the savage, they have no conceptual understanding of these ideas. They don't believe in property rights, they believe in the tribe, in the collective. They idea of a noble savage is that man doesn't own land, it belongs to mother earth. How in the hell can Objectivists rationalize to people unfamiliar with Objectivism that Avatar has proper values? Do you want us to completely confuse people? Or educate them?



Sanction: 29, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 29, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 29, No Sanction: 0
Post 90

Monday, December 28, 2009 - 8:05pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jay, it takes a long time to push away the haze.  You have been taught to not really look that deeply at movies like this, but even so their themes work - and look we have something in this movie that so stunningly OBVIOUS - so much so that the word "plot" should be replaced with a mad-libs version of movie writing, and you STILL don't see it.  Just think about it for a time and get back to us - also, read the Romantic Manifesto.  Also, these writers are very BAD - expect lots of contradictions and out and out total crap.

The last craptacular I enjoyed was Transformers 2 - I definitely didnt want to look for any meaning in that one but it was fun to watch.


Sanction: 17, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 17, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 17, No Sanction: 0
Post 91

Monday, December 28, 2009 - 8:50pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

It's got a good beat and you can dance to it

There's a difference between, on one hand, a person's not seeing, and, on the other hand, his willful, insulting, and arbitrary criticism of others for seeing all too well.

Jay says we go too far, and implies that those of us who use our intellect to judge this movie are irrational, but he refuses to be more specific in his accusations.

I'll grant him the favor he withholds. I'll be specific. Jay began a thread Macro vs micro Objectivism and argued that Rand's epistemology was flawed, that her view of society was incomplete, and:

"I believe it is possible to create enlightened regulations, whose sole purpose is to protect us from the less honest among us. Throwing out all regulations is like the baby and the bath water analogy."

Jay was given the benefit of the doubt, by some, when he made the arbitrary assertion that some regulation might be necessary in an Objectivist society. He was asked for examples, which he never provided. Now we have the same exact arbitrary, "you're wrong, but I won't tell you where you are wrong."

I am curious what the purpose of such remarks is on a forum dedicated, not to the arbitrary assertion of opinion, but to the philosophical discussion of applied Objectivism. I, for example, would be happy to argue that according to Objectivist principles, this statement of Jay's is monstrous:

"When I watched the film, I rejected the tired and deceitful choice of big business (or Capitalism) as the villain. I placed no particular importance on the NaVi being primitive. Neither did I place any particular importance on their being (however one wants to call it) "at one with nature". Neither of these things hold any importance or relevance to me. However, what I did place importance on, and what is very relevant to me, is that these individuals (self-aware, sapient beings) were having their rights (to life, to property, to pursuit of happiness) threatened.

What Jay is saying here is that ethics has nothing to do with entities (that is, with people) but just with contextless actions. He would be just as happy, apparently, to reject the stereotype of Jews as moneygrubbers or Negroes as sexual predators and to root for Palestinians fighting for their homeland or Southerners fighting to repulse a squadron of Northern black soldiers invading their plantations — so long as there was some imperialist oppression or some violation of state's rights going on.

I could argue that that opinion is monstrous. But I won't. Insulting calls for people not to think and arbitrary claims for which the claimant refuses to provide any support don't deserve it.

The Birth of a Nation is available for both delivery and streaming at Netflix. Wikipedia says the movie, "set during and after the American Civil War," and "based on Thomas Dixon's The Clansman" is "noted for its innovative camera techniques and narrative achievements, and its status as the first Hollywood blockbuster." Turn off your mind, relax and float down stream. No need to accept or reject any stereotypes about statist carpetbaggers and uppity miscigenating Negro landgrabbers or the honorable motives of the Ku Klux Klan. It's got a good beat and you can dance to it.

(Edited by Ted Keer on 12/28, 10:40pm)


Sanction: 15, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 15, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 15, No Sanction: 0
Post 92

Wednesday, December 30, 2009 - 1:11pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

For those who might question the seriousness of the issue of propaganda in movies, there is the case of Ayn Rand's testimony before the House Un-American Activities Committee. Rand was famously ambiguous about the propriety of such a committee. (She need not have been, there is no such thing as the freedom to initiate political violence, something which the supporters of communism and sharia have in common.) So what topic was so important to her that she felt it necessary to speak to Congress?

The topic was communist propaganda in films. The specific film which she criticized was Song of Russia, which dealt with an American symphony touring Russia. Surely an innocent topic which one could simply relax and enjoy?

A book has been written on the matter by Robert Mayhew. Ayn Rand and Song of Russia: Communism and Anti-Communism in 1940s Hollywood By Robert Mayhew. Lanham, Maryland: Scarecrow Press, 2005.

Here is an article providing a comprehensive review of Mayhew's book addressing the historical context from Mises.org.

Rand's testimony and a description of its context is available at NobleSoul.com. An excerpt:

At the time she was called to testify, Rand was already well-known in Hollywood for her opposition to Communism. She originally planned to testify about two movies -- Song of Russia and The Best Years of Our Lives. The former was made during World War II, with the fairly obvious purpose of making Americans feel more comfortable about being allies with the Soviets during the war. The latter was a popular post-war film that had won several Academy Awards, including the Oscar for best picture. Rand was later asked to testify only about Song of Russia. Some members of the committee thought it was too risky to criticize a popular film like The Best Years of Our Lives. Upset by that she was only allowed to discuss one older movie that was obvious propaganda, Rand demanded a chance to give additional testimony. After some argument, Chairman Thomas eventually offered to recall her later in the hearings. He never did recall her. Her testimony as it stands concerns only Song of Russia.

And here is a partial excerpt of Rand's testimony copied from the full annotated transcript at Noble Soul:

Stripling: Could you talk into the microphone?

Rand: Can you hear me now? Nobody has stated just what they mean by propaganda. Now, I use the term to mean that Communist propaganda is anything which gives a good impression of communism as a way of life. Anything that sells people the idea that life in Russia is good and that people are free and happy would be Communist propaganda. Am I not correct? I mean, would that be a fair statement to make -- that that would be Communist propaganda?

Now, here is what the picture Song of Russia contains. It starts with an American conductor, played by Robert Taylor,14 giving a concert in America for Russian war relief. He starts playing the American national anthem and the national anthem dissolves into a Russian mob, with the sickle and hammer on a red flag very prominent above their heads. I am sorry, but that made me sick. That is something which I do not see how native Americans permit, and I am only a naturalized American. That was a terrible touch of propaganda. As a writer, I can tell you just exactly what it suggests to the people. It suggests literally and technically that it is quite all right for the American national anthem to dissolve into the Soviet. The term here is more than just technical. It really was symbolically intended, and it worked out that way. The anthem continues, played by a Soviet band. That is the beginning of the picture.

Now we go to the pleasant love story. Mr. Taylor is an American who came there apparently voluntarily to conduct concerts for the Soviets. He meets a little Russian girl15 from a village who comes to him and begs him to go to her village to direct concerts there. There are no GPU16 agents and nobody stops her. She just comes to Moscow and meets him. He falls for her and decides he will go, because he is falling in love. He asks her to show him Moscow. She says she has never seen it. He says, "I will show it to YOU." They see it together. The picture then goes into a scene of Moscow, supposedly. I don't know where the studio got its shots, but I have never seen anything like it in Russia. First you see Moscow buildings -- big, prosperous-looking, clean buildings, with something like swans or sailboats in the foreground. Then you see a Moscow restaurant that just never existed there. In my time, when I was in Russia, there was only one such restaurant, which was nowhere as luxurious as that and no one could enter it except commissars and profiteers. Certainly a girl from a village, who in the first place would never have been allowed to come voluntarily, without permission, to Moscow, could not afford to enter it, even if she worked ten years. However, there is a Russian restaurant with a menu such as never existed in Russia at all and which I doubt even existed before the revolution. From this restaurant they go on to this tour of Moscow. The streets are clean and prosperous-looking. There are no food lines anywhere. You see shots of the marble subway -- the famous Russian subway out of which they make such propaganda capital. There is a marble statue of Stalin thrown in. There is a park where you see happy little children in white blouses running around. I don't know whose children they are, but they are really happy kiddies. They are not homeless children in rags, such as I have seen in Russia. Then you see an excursion boat, on which the Russian people are smiling, sitting around very cheerfully, dressed in some sort of satin blouses such as they only wear in Russian restaurants here. Then they attend a luxurious dance. I don't know where they got the idea of the clothes and the settings that they used at the ball and --

Stripling: Is that a ballroom scene?

Rand: Yes; the ballroom -- where they dance. It was an exaggeration even for this country. I have never seen anybody wearing such clothes and dancing to such exotic music when I was there. Of course, it didn't say whose ballroom it is or how they get there. But there they are -- free and dancing very happily.

Incidentally, I must say at this point that I understand from correspondents who have left Russia and been there later than I was and from people who escaped from there later than I did that the time I saw it, which was in 1926, was the best time since the Russian revolution. At that time conditions were a little better than they have become since. In my time we were a bunch of ragged, starved, dirty, miserable people who had only two thoughts in our mind. That was our complete terror -- afraid to look at one another, afraid to say anything for fear of who is listening and would report us -- and where to get the next meal. You have no idea what it means to live in a country where nobody has any concern except food, where all the conversation is about food because everybody is so hungry that that is all they can think about and that is all they can afford to do. They have no idea of politics. They have no idea of any pleasant romances or love-nothing but food and fear. That is what I saw up to 1926. That is not what the picture shows.

Now, after this tour of Moscow, the hero -- the American conductor -- goes to the Soviet village. The Russian villages are something -- so miserable and so filthy. They were even before the revolution. They weren't much even then. What they have become now I am afraid to think. You have all read about the program for the collectivization of the farms in 1933, at which time the Soviet Government admits that three million peasants died of starvation. Other people claim there were seven and a half million, but three million is the figure admitted by the Soviet Government as the figure of people who died of starvation, planned by the government in order to drive people into collective farms. That is a recorded historical fact.17

Now, here is the life in the Soviet village as presented in Song of Russia. You see the happy peasants. You see they are meeting the hero at the station with bands, with beautiful blouses and shoes, such as they never wore anywhere. You see children with operetta costumes on them and with a brass band which they could never afford. You see the manicured starlets driving tractors and the happy women who come from work singing. You see a peasant at home with a close-up of food for which anyone there would have been murdered. If anybody had such food in Russia in that time he couldn't remain alive, because he would have been torn apart by neighbors trying to get food. But here is a close-up of it and a line where Robert Taylor comments on the food and the peasant answers, "This is just a simple country table and the food we eat ourselves."

Then the peasant proceeds to show Taylor how they live. He shows him his wonderful tractor. It is parked somewhere in his private garage. He shows him the grain in his bin, and Taylor says, "That is wonderful grain." Now, it is never said that the peasant does not own this tractor or this grain because it is a collective farm. He couldn't have it. It is not his. But the impression he gives to Americans, who wouldn't know any differently, is that certainly it is this peasant's private property, and that is how he lives, he has his own tractor and his own grain. Then it shows miles and miles of plowed fields.

Chairman Thomas: We will have more order, please.

Rand: Am I speaking too fast?

Chairman Thomas: Go ahead.

Rand: Then --

Stripling: Miss Rand, may I bring up one point there?

Rand: Surely.

Stripling: I saw the picture. At this peasant's village or home, was there a priest or several priests in evidence?

Rand: Oh, yes; I am coming to that, too. The priest was from the beginning in the village scenes, having a position as sort of a constant companion and friend of the peasants, as if religion was a natural accepted part of that life. Well, now, as a matter of fact, the situation about religion in Russia in my time was, and I understand it still is, that for a Communist Party member to have anything to do with religion means expulsion from the party. He is not allowed to enter a church or take part in any religious ceremony. For a private citizen, that is a nonparty member, it was permitted, but it was so frowned upon that people had to keep it secret, if they went to church. If they wanted a church wedding they usually had it privately in their homes, with only a few friends present, in order not to let it be known at their place of employment because, even though it was not forbidden, the chances were that they would be thrown out of a job for being known as practicing any kind of religion.18

Now, then, to continue with the story, Robert Taylor proposes to the heroine. She accepts him. They have a wedding, which, of course, is a church wedding. It takes place with all the religious pomp which they show. They have a banquet. They have dancers, in something like satin skirts and performing ballets such as you never could possibly see in any village and certainly not in Russia. Later they show a peasants' meeting place, which is a kind of a marble palace with crystal chandeliers. Where they got it or who built it for them I would like to be told. Then later you see that the peasants all have radios. When the heroine plays as a soloist with Robert Taylor's orchestra, after she marries him, you see a scene where all the peasants are listening on radios, and one of them says, "There are more than millions listening to the concert."

I don't know whether there are a hundred people in Russia, private individuals, who own radios. And I remember reading in the newspaper at the beginning of the war that every radio was seized by the government and people were not allowed to own them. Such an idea that every farmer, a poor peasant, has a radio, is certainly preposterous. You also see that they have long-distance telephones. Later in the picture Taylor has to call his wife in the village by long-distance telephone. Where they got this long-distance phone, I don't know.

Now, here comes the crucial point of the picture. In the midst of this concert, when the heroine is playing, you see a scene on the border of the U.S.S.R. You have a very lovely modernistic sign saying "U.S.S.R." I would just like to remind you that that is the border where probably thousands of people have died trying to escape out of this lovely paradise. It shows the U.S.S.R. sign, and there is a border guard standing. He is listening to the concert. Then there is a scene inside kind of a guardhouse where the guards are listening to the same concert, the beautiful Tschaikowsky music, and they are playing chess.

Suddenly there is a Nazi attack on them. The poor, sweet Russians were unprepared. Now, realize -- and that was a great shock to me -- that the border that was being shown was the border of Poland. That was the border of an occupied, destroyed, enslaved country which Hitler and Stalin destroyed together.19 That was the border that was being shown to us -- just a happy place with people listening to music.

Also realize that when all this sweetness and light was going on in the first part of the picture, with all these happy, free people, there was not a GPU agent among them, with no food lines, no persecution -- complete freedom and happiness, with everybody smiling. Incidentally, I have never seen so much smiling in my life, except on the murals of the world's fair pavilion of the Soviets. If any one of you have seen it, you can appreciate it. It is one of the stock propaganda tricks of the Communists, to show these people smiling. That is all they can show. You have all this, plus the fact that an American conductor had accepted an invitation to come there and conduct a concert, and this took place in 1941 when Stalin was the ally of Hitler. That an American would accept an invitation to that country was shocking to me, with everything that was shown being proper and good and all those happy people going around dancing, when Stalin was an ally of Hitler.

Now, then, the heroine decides that she wants to stay in Russia. Taylor would like to take her out of the country, but she says no, her place is here, she has to fight the war. Here is the line, as nearly exact as I could mark it while watching the picture:

"I have a great responsibility to my family, to my village, and to the way I have lived."

What way had she lived? This is just a polite way of saying the of life. She goes on to say that she wants to stay in the country because otherwise, "How can I help to build a better and better life for my country." What do you mean when you say better and better? That means she has already helped to build a good way. That is the Soviet Communist way. But now she wants to make it even better. All right.

Now, then, Taylor's manager, who is played, I believe, by Benchley20, an American, tells her that she should leave the country, but when she refuses and wants to stay, here is the line he uses: he tells her in an admiring friendly way that "You are a fool, but a lot of fools like you died on the village green at Lexington."21

Now, I submit that that is blasphemy, because the men at Lexington were not fighting just a foreign invader. They were fighting for freedom and what I mean -- and I intend to be exact -- is they were fighting for political freedom and individual freedom. They were fighting for the rights of man. To compare them to somebody, anybody fighting for a slave state, I think is dreadful. Then, later the girl also says -- I believe this was she or one of the other characters -- that "the culture we have been building here will never die." What culture? The culture of concentration camps.22

At the end of the picture one of the Russians asks Taylor and the girl to go back to America, because they can help them there. How? Here is what he says, "You can go back to your country and tell them what you have seen and you will see the truth both in speech and in music." Now, that is plainly saying that what you have seen is the truth about Russia. That is what is in the picture.

Now, here is what I cannot understand at all: if the excuse that has been given here is that we had to produce the picture in wartime, just how can it help the war effort? If it is to deceive the American people, if it were to present to the American people a better picture of Russia than it really is, then that sort of an attitude is nothing but the theory of the Nazi elite -- that a choice group of intellectual or other leaders will tell the people lies for their own good. That I don't think is the American way of giving people information. We do not have to deceive the people at any time, in war or peace. If it was to please the Russians, I don't see how you can please the Russians by telling them that we are fools. To what extent we have done it, you can see right now. You can see the results right now. If we present a picture like that as our version of what goes on in Russia, what will they think of it? We don't win anybody's friendship. We will only win their contempt, and as you know the Russians have been behaving like this.

My whole point about the picture is this: I fully believe Mr. Mayer when he says that he did not make a Communist picture. To do him justice, I can tell you I noticed, by watching the picture, where there was an effort to cut propaganda out. I believe he tried to cut propaganda out of the picture, but the terrible thing is the carelessness with ideas, not realizing that the mere presentation of that kind of happy existence in a country of slavery and horror is terrible because it is propaganda. You are telling people that it is all right to live in a totalitarian state.

Now, I would like to say that nothing on earth will justify slavery. In war or peace or at any time you cannot justify slavery. You cannot tell people that it is all right to live under it and that everybody there is happy. If you doubt this, I will just ask you one question. Visualize a picture in your own mind as laid in Nazi Germany. If anybody laid a plot just based on a pleasant little romance in Germany and played Wagner music and said that people are just happy there, would you say that that was propaganda or not, when you know what life in Germany was and what kind of concentration camps they had there. You would not dare to put just a happy love story into Germany, and for every one of the same reasons you should not do it about Russia.


(Edited by Ted Keer on 12/30, 5:26pm)


Sanction: 12, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 12, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 12, No Sanction: 0
Post 93

Wednesday, December 30, 2009 - 3:31pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Similarly to Ted's points, the same could be seen with regard to anti-Semitic artwork seen throughout Europe's history.

"Blood libel", an accusation that Jews engaged in human sacrifice, specifically that they would take the blood of gentile children to celebrate the Jewish holiday of Purim.






In fact it may be the case the legend of the "vampire" from European literature is actually a racist reference to Jews.

Judensau - a deragotory and dehumanizing depiction of Jews engaging in sexual contact with pigs, dating back to the middle ages Europe. The insult is based on the Jewish ritual prohibition against eating or touching pigs. A lot of this kind of art-work can still be seen on many of Europe's cathedrals.


Judensau at the Cathedral of St. Peter in Regensburg


Judensau at the Cathedral of Brandenburg


More anti-semitic artwork against Jews charging usury (Christianity used to forbid the practice of charging interest for loans, so naturally the profession fell to those who were not Christians - Jews)



In 1886, the French writer Edouard Drumont published "La France Juive" ("Jewish France"), which became the catechism of the anti-Semitic movement. Apart from the usual accusations, such as usury and ritual murder, he accused the Jews of having organized the plunder of churches during the French Revolution.


Anti-semitc artwork can be seen all through out European history.


These were reaffirmations of anti-semitism, with this as its logical conclusion:



Auschwitz




Jews ordered by Hitler to wear the yellow star, a prelude to the above pictured atrocities


Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 94

Wednesday, January 13, 2010 - 6:41amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Yes the stunning 3D in the movie is awesome showing the nature of vibrant colors, that's the main reason why so many people go see it, just to experience the stunning 3D technology. Cameron used this film to depict the Wars like War in Iraq is nothing but trying to capturing other nation's oil fields and how we abuse technology and guns and weapons for it's purpose. But his idea of going back to agrarian stone age or just being a tree hugger is the flaw of attack on industrialize society as they are given more power to do whatever they wishes and will likely to abuse it's power. But hey the only way to show off 3D's beautify is in it's Nature's form, I guess that might be the reason why he chose this theme? and at the end is all about how to craft a master piece using every technology and elements out there to make money right?

Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 95

Wednesday, January 13, 2010 - 9:22amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Yup, it's all just about making money. So was Birth of a Nation all about making money. I guess it's ok to denigrate everything that is good about industrialization and through allegory the United States as long as the artist makes money. /sarcasm

Look I'm sure the movie is visually appealing. But I know this technology will be used again in much better written movies in the future. In 10 years when people look back at this film, it's visuals will be old-hat, and stale. The movie won't actually hold up as a classic, only that it was a pioneer for a particular use of technology.

Big deal.

Post 96

Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 7:58pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Subject: Disagreement on Avatar; Wider Esthetic Issues

There are a number of issues to disentangle in Ed Hudgins' wholly negative review of "Avatar" [entitled 'Avatar's Savage Message'] and in the similar views of many Objectivists.

He (and they) are mistaken on several of them.

Ed said: "This, of course, is moral nonsense. A look at primitive peoples from the prehistoric to the original inhabitants of America to the odd jungle tribe today shows brutality, superstition that leads to ostracism and murder, and institutionalized human sacrifice along with the occasional "respect" for animal spirits."

First, violence and warfare is not true of the lifestyle of every Indian or jungle tribe. There are peaceful tribes in the Amazon and many places in Africa. The Bushmen are one well-known example. And only if they were violent aggressors (not the case in the movie) would it be appropriate to use force against them, in a defensive context. Also, to make it worse, the American Indian tribes who were expropriated were in a number of cases (especially in the Eastern half of the country as opposed to Apaches, etc.), farmers, agriculturalists.

More importantly, the movie -correctly- showed the injustice of killing people so you can seize valuable resources. While the American hunter-gatherers could not legitimately claim the entire continent to follow the buffalo, they could claim some preserves.

One of the worst American Presidents was Andrew Jackson, who simply stole the Southern farming lands of the Cherokees. And in defiance of the Supreme Court. It's an issue of property rights. They don't just belong to the highest-valued use. If you claim that my hunting ranch is not as 'civilized' a use as farming or mining or building a cpu chip factory, you still don't get to steal it from me.

Second, there are many Hollywood films that are good movies even though one could make a connection to a left-of-center ideology, either directly or by inference. The "China Syndrome" could be taken as an anti-nuke movie. But it was also a great story about preventing a catastrophic industrial accident. "Dirty Dancing" could disenchant an Objectivist because the bad guy loves "The Fountainhead". And what was the name of that -superb- movie in which Julia Roberts is fighting big business when it is putting cancer-causing chemicals in the groundwater? Are you going to walk out because you don't like businessmen/corrupt corporations always being the villains? (In fact, sometimes they are.)

Yes, the Navi in "Avatar" are mystically one with the earth. Try to get over that. That kind of metaphysical unrealism is true in all kinds of fantasies from epic literature and fairy tales up through "Lord of the Rings" or "Harry Potter". Are you going to discard or be unable to appreciate much of western literature for this reason - Peter Pan flying? Excalibur?

When you read or see a work of art, look for the positives. Find the value if any. Try to leave your politics on the shelf, unless it is something truly inescapable. The principle is "willing suspension of disbelief". Rand loved the music of "The Internationale" - she did it in that case. But rock and roll music reminded her of savagery and jungle rhythms. And she couldn't see past what she (mistakenly) took to be Shakespeare's general malevolence

She made the same mistake in those two cases (we won't even talk about Impressionism), which Ed and other Oists are making with this movie.

No, "Avatar" is hardly "Casablanca". It's not a great movie, but it does a lot of things well, as is true of any James Cameron picture. It's an action flick with wondrous special effects. It's straightforward, well-executed storytelling with a good plot and shallow, but reasonable characterization. And the defense of the Navi was MORALLY correct with regard to genocide and property rights.

Learn to enter into the world of an artist without requiring he be a libertarian, an Objectivist for you to find anything to enjoy.

Yes, I know Ed is not saying all this...but I'm extrapolating and making a wider point about esthetics, value-seeking, enjoyment among Objectivists.

Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 97

Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 8:27pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Philip

Are you going to walk out because you don't like businessmen/corrupt corporations always being the villains?


Yes, actually I am sick of the constant vilification of the businessman. If you honestly consider yourself an Objectivist, I should think you share that opinion. And I'm concerned culturally what this constant vilification would lead to. In the case of the anti-semitic art found throughout European history I noted previously, ask yourself what was the logical conclusion to all of that irrational hate?


Yes, the Navi in "Avatar" are mystically one with the earth. Try to get over that. That kind of metaphysical unrealism is true in all kinds of fantasies from epic literature and fairy tales up through "Lord of the Rings" or "Harry Potter". Are you going to discard or be unable to appreciate much of western literature for this reason - Peter Pan flying? Excalibur?


No sorry, those aren't proper analogies and you've taken the objections entirely out of context. There's nothing wrong with stories that introduce fantastical elements to them. So long as they are introduced early on in the story, and so long as this recreated reality is logically internally consistent, then it's perfectly fine. What Objectivists object to with respect to the Na'vi is that Cameron tries to depict a morally pure society without a need for industry, being antagonized by a society that is industrialized. This is not accidental. In Harry Potter no conflict of this nature exists, nor in Excalibur, and certainly not in the Lord of the Rings.

When you read or see a work of art, look for the positives. Find the value if any. Try to leave your politics on the shelf


Yeah man! Just take another hit on the bong and forget what you see! Never mind what is reality! Turn on, tune in, drop out!

Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 98

Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 8:38pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
"Learn to enter into the world of an artist without requiring he be a libertarian, an Objectivist for you to find anything to enjoy."

Straw man.
(Edited by Joe Maurone on 1/15, 12:54am)


Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 99

Thursday, January 14, 2010 - 9:22pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

It is just as wrong to deny the actual plot-theme of Avatar, a struggle of mystical collectivist environmentalists against big business and the American military as it is to conflate the Apache and the Iroquois. Will more than one out of a thousand viewers will identify the villains of that film with the administration of Andrew Jackson rather than George W. Bush?

This thread doesn't lack refutations of the "well, they were taking their land" rationalization. Have you read it? In case you haven't, I refer you to this quote on art and rationalization by Barbara Branden. Of course Cameron has to mix in humanizing elements and has to portray the Na'Vi as innocent victims, or you wouldn't hate the forces he has explicitly admitted he wants to demonize. You could even make a movie about Lenin where you portray him as an orphaned exile whose brother had been hanged unjustly.

in fact, it is mixing in such implausible elements, immortal Ten foot tall NBA Barbie-Doll hippy Smurfs with corn-braids and USB ports versus white US Marines with lots of nasty guns and machines who remind you of daddy when he comes home drunk and beats you that make this movie particularly evil. Talk about stereotypes. Of course the victims have to be as sympathetic as possible, and even the hero is a cripple. Writing like this doesn't happen accidentally.

You think this movie is just an innovative blockbuster? Then how about this movie?

You think it's just innocent escapism? Here is what Rand had to say.

You think that the portrayal of these stoneage mother goddess worshippers is reasonable? Compare them to the real thing.

As I have said, I have no problem with people enjoying this film to the extent they can morally do so, if they can do so. I just don't see the point in denying its nature, an attack on exactly those Western institutions that made Cameron free to succeed.

Post to this threadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.