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Post 40

Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 4:15pmSanction this postReply
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Henshaw:

I hate to keep beating this drum, but Objectivism seems like certain religious groups, where they're so committed to something that has to be The Absolute Truth according to their philosophy, that they feel threatened by any data or technology or theory that even implies that maybe, just maybe, they might be a wee bit mistaken.

Me:

I like this quote from Oliver Cromwell:

To the Presbyterians of Scotland, Cromwell wrote, "I BESEECH YOU IN THE BOWELS OF CHRIST THINK IT POSSIBLE YOU MAY BE MISTAKEN."
In a letter to the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland. 1650.


Indeed. Any of us could be mistaken some of the time.

Bob Kolker


Post 41

Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 8:55pmSanction this postReply
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Oh Bobby-boy, when will you dig yourself too deep?:

=========================
Introspection is a form of day dreaming, not a mode of cognition. How can a second or third party witness and verify the factual (empirical) validity of your introspection? Only you have access to them.
=========================

The privileged access that introspection affords doesn't disqualify it as a mode of cognition. Cognition is a mental power of aquaintance, familiarity, or just plain knowing. The fact that others can't directly verify our introspection is a non sequitor which mistakenly assumes that knowledge can only be public, never private.

A simple lie -- when the truth is held private -- is a debunking counter-example to this false notion that all knowledge is public. Also, every new advancement -- first known by one single person -- is an advancement in knowledge (even before it is publicized). In contrast, the stipulation that you place on cognition is a form of social metaphysics.

At root of your thinking error here, Bob, is that you fail to integrate every relevant thing (without contradiction). The relevant things here would be all of the referents falling under the general heading of "existents." Not integrating all 3 modes of existence, you will necessarily err in your judgment of the cognition possible to man.

There are existents external and internal existents and, upon a proper and thorough introspection, it is discovered that there are actually 3 modes of existence for existents ...
===================
Ed: The units of the concept "existence" are every entity, attribute, action, event, or phenomenon that exists, has ever existed or will ever exist. These "units" can be indicated ostensibly.

Existence includes the subjective contents of the human mind, as well as the intentional objects of human thought that exist for 2 or more minds (which allow us to both be talking about one and the same thing).
===================
From:
http://rebirthofreason.com/Forum/ObjectivismQ&A/0050.shtml#1

Here is a summary of the kinds of things with which we can become acquainted, familiar, or just plain know via cognition:

(1) subjective existents -- such as daydreams
(2) intentional existents -- such as concepts
(3) external existents -- such as tables and chairs


Ed

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Post 42

Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 9:05pmSanction this postReply
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Jim: "I hate to keep beating this drum, but Objectivism seems like certain religious groups, where they're so committed to something that has to be The Absolute Truth according to their philosophy..."

No, you don't hate it. If you did, you'd make an honest effort to familiarize yourself with fundamental Objectivist principles (and the reasoning behind them) before presuming to make any comparisons whatsoever on an O'ist site between O'ists and anyone else. That you instead prefer to shoot off at the mouth here with your baseless opinions speaks for itself.

Jim: "As for "disparaging" Atlas Shrugged, again my intention wasn't to insult, but rather to point out what should be painfully apparent to anyone who has extensive literary experience--that the book, while conveying some great truths, is objectively poorly written, and that this again may hinder proselytizing efforts."

Some questions: 1) What "extensive literary experience" do you have? and 2) By what specific standards, based on your "extensive literary experience," is the novel "objectively poorly written?"

Robert: What's the point of quoting someone if you're going to then ignore what he said in your response? Glenn clearly said that it wasn't the *Heisenberg principle per se* that was being criticized by O'ists, but rather the *ontological conclusion* that had been drawn from the principle by Heisenberg and others. Specifically, *that conclusion* wasn't logically warranted by the evidence. If you don't want to address that point, then save us your further exposition of the science behind the principle. It's an irrelevant bait-and-switch.

Post 43

Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 9:26pmSanction this postReply
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What Jon said.

Ed

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Post 44

Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 9:42pmSanction this postReply
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Jon -- Again this illogical standard -- nobody who isn't a committed Objectivist, as defined by your subjective notions of what is sufficiently committed, is permitted to note similarities between Objectivists and other groups such as Mormons.

By that logic, unless you hold a current Temple Recommend as I do, you can't comment about whether or not the LDS belief system is valid, or whether you perceive members of that group to hold odd beliefs, or have similarities to other groups. All outsiders should just hush up until they get preapproved by a self-appointed elite -- with that approval contingent upon satisfying LDS authorities that you believe as they do.

Note how that might turn into an echo chamber?

As for Atlas Shrugged -- you really think that was a technically well-written book? Seriously? You think it couldn't have about a quarter of the words trimmed out without losing anything of consequence? You really think that people in real life hold long, uninterrupted public tirades before a hostile audience? I could go on and on about the poor writing style -- and many literary critics have done just that. Great book, great ideas, but man could it ever use a competent editor, just like the Book of Mormon could use a competent editor -- but one dare not alter a word of scripture, yeah?

Oh, wait, another of those illicit comparisons by a member of the nonelite.

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Post 45

Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 11:57pmSanction this postReply
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When I first wrote the article that started this thread, I was searching for evidence that  using the word rational as a qualifier for “self-interest” might not be communicating what Objectivists want to say.   I wondered if critics might be concluding that we are advocating unrestrained self-indulgence that would lead to the Hobbesian nightmare vision of “war of all against all,” because so few people grasp what rationality means.  I honestly had no idea that certain RoR members would be providing such vivid evidence in support of my hypothesis.  I guess I should try to be more appreciative.

 

Exhibit A:  A member describes introspection as “daydreaming,” then says:

 

Its all in your head, meaning your brain is the one doing all that stuff. There is no self standing independent substantial mind. The notion is essentially ancient superstition. Right up there with Gods, ghosts, spirits and Muses. Descartes nonsense is responsible for untold death and suffering. Dealing with minds is like dealing with the Humours. It is a false notion with pernicious consequences.

 

Is that a revelation or what? 

 

These remarks are reminiscent of Gilbert Ryle’s famous work, The Concept of Mind, published in 1949.  Ryle was a radical behaviorist who downplayed the significance of private mental events, and made an effort to describe such events in terms of outward behavior.  He did not deny the existence of mental experience, but characterized it as ghostly “shadow actions” in a “secret grotto,’ and characterized such “stream of experience” which only we can witness as devoid of consequence.  He used daydreams as an example of our silent inner soliloquies, the assorted “thrills and twinges” which exist in our heads but do not really rise to the level of self-knowledge.

 

It doesn’t seem likely that we will be seeing a whole lot of rationality coming from people with such a view of their internal processes.

 

Another member describes his brain as “an imperfect tool, badly designed for the task… to deduce (sic) an objective reality.” He describes the “tricks our minds are hard-wired by evolution to perform” in terms that would have made Immanuel Kant proud.  He becomes indignant when it is suggested that he try to understand Objectivism before attacking it, then protests that we are demanding that he become a “full-fledged believer,” and that I am telling him to “shut up” until he “fully concurs” with ideas he obviously has made no effort to comprehend.

 

(This same member argues that Atlas Shrugged, which continues to sell over 100,000 copies per year a half century after it was first published, hinders the spread of Objectivism because it is “objectively poorly written.”) 

 

I didn’t have to go very far to find evidence to back up my thesis on rationality.  Thanks for making my research so easy.  And stay tuned.  No doubt even more supporting data is on the way.


Post 46

Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 5:31amSanction this postReply
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Hardin:



(This same member argues that Atlas Shrugged, which continues to sell over 100,000 copies per year a half century after it was first published, hinders the spread of Objectivism because it is “objectively poorly written.”)



Me:

-Atlas Shrugged- is pretty good alternative time line fiction. It has precedents back to the early 20-th century and even before. There is -EreWon- by Moore. There is -The Iron Heel- by Jack London. Rand is in good company and she acquitted herself well in this area. Alternative History is a fairly popular genre, mistakenly classified as science fiction in many bookstore.

Bob Kolker

PS: Descartes -res cogitens- is still bogus.



Post 47

Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 7:54amSanction this postReply
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Dennis -- "Atlas Shrugged" sells well despite the technical flaws in the writing style. The ideas, philosophy, and plot are what make it great, and what sells it, but are you seriously suggesting that it is perfect and couldn't be improved in the slightest? (Yes, yes, the whole second-hander thing from The Fountainhead, where awful, icky people screw up great architecture and cause it to be dynamited, and justifiably so, but sometimes other people can actually improve one's work because they have specialized skills a genius like Ayn Rand lacked). I've read reviews of it, and talked with very literate people, and the technical flaws turn many people off who might otherwise read it and adopt Objectivist viewpoints. Do I really need to take a random page from Atlas Shrugged and enumerate some the little technical things that would mar the experience for many literate people? Would that help you understand what I am driving at, or at least give you a basis to try to refute the point I'm trying to make? Or is that an unthinkable heresy, on the lines of telling a Mormon that the Book of Mormon would be vastly more readable without all the "and it came to pass" rubbish? Or telling one of those folks that believe that every word of the Bible is literal, unalterable truth that maybe, just maybe, some of the stuff in there didn't actually happen?

Yes, the sales numbers of Atlas Shrugged are impressive, but competently edited, it might sell two or five or ten times as many copies, and thus help spread Objectivism to more people than it does now.

I guess the point I'm trying to make, Dennis, is that you keep finding insults and attacks and whatnot when what is being offered is an attempt at constructive comments. But, I suppose that such aggressive misconstruction and failure to cut some slack is part and parcel of having a bristly, non-pacifistic worldview that seems so dismaying prevalent in the foreign policy advocated by some at this site.

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Post 48

Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 8:07amSanction this postReply
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"Do I really need to take a random page from Atlas Shrugged and enumerate some the little technical things that would mar the experience for many literate people?"

No Jim, we'll be good little sheep and take your word on faith. Please, don't condescend to qualifying your claims. Besides, Stephen King already told us Rand's writing was wooden, and who are we to argue with a literary genius of that caliber?

Post 49

Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 8:24amSanction this postReply
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Welcome back to RoR, Joe. Hadn't seen your "work" around here for a while. I guess you came back on the scene with guns blazing to remind us of what it is that we've missed out on, huh?

;-)

Good retort.

Ed

Post 50

Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 8:28amSanction this postReply
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Hi, Ed. Just passing through today. :)

Post 51

Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 8:31amSanction this postReply
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Dennis, post 45 was as exacting as it was critical.

As they say from the bull pen: "Good eye!"

Ed

Post 52

Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 8:38amSanction this postReply
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Wow. You really all think Atlas Shrugged is good writing from a technical POV?

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Post 53

Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 8:40amSanction this postReply
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Jim: "Jon -- Again this illogical standard -- nobody who isn't a committed Objectivist, as defined by your subjective notions of what is sufficiently committed, is permitted to note similarities between Objectivists and other groups such as Mormons."

Jim, I'd *never* presume to make comparisons between Mormons and anyone else on a Mormon discussion site without first familiarizing myself with the fundamental principles contained in the Book of Mormon and the evidence behind them (or lack thereof). To do so would make me an irresponsible blowhard who doesn't deserve to be taken seriously.

You also didn't answer my question about your "extensive literary experience." I figured you wouldn't.

Of course, even if you were a lit. professor or bestselling author, it wouldn't necessarily mean that your view of the poor literary merit of Atlas Shrugged is valid. To prove that, you'd need to cite objective standards of well-written literature and then specifically show how AS falls short. Essentially, all you've said is that AS is too long and that people don't really talk the way the characters in the book do (which makes sense, given that it's Romanticist fiction). Good work.

Robert, no response to my above point on the logic of the *ontological claim* based on Heisenberg's principle? How intellectually honest of you.
(Edited by Jon Trager on 2/21, 10:45am)


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Post 54

Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 8:51amSanction this postReply
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"Wow. You really all think Atlas Shrugged is good writing from a technical POV?"

And here it is, the argument from intimidation. "Surely you are not an advocate of capitalism, are you?...Oh, you couldn't be! Not REALLY! Oh, come now...".

Trager,:

"Of course, even if you were a lit. professor or bestselling author, it wouldn't necessarily mean that your view of the poor literary merit of Atlas Shrugged is valid. To prove that, you'd need to cite objective standards of well-written literature and then specifically show how AS falls short."

Rand threw down that gauntlet: "If those vibrations fail, if such debaters are challenged, one finds that they have no arguments, no evidence, no proof, no reason, no ground to stand on-that their noisy aggressiveness serves to hide a vacuum...a confession of intellectual impotence."

Let's see if Henshaw can get it up...and prove Peikoff wrong that these internet debates aren't just a waste of time...


(Edited by Joe Maurone on 2/21, 8:52am)


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Post 55

Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 9:32amSanction this postReply
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Do I really need to take a random page from Atlas Shrugged and enumerate some the little technical things that would mar the experience for many literate people?
That depends on what you mean by need to, but I'd be interested in what you came up with.

Would that help you understand what I am driving at, or at least give you a basis to try to refute the point I'm trying to make?

Yes, it would.  How about p. 44?  It's the integer closest to the square root of my birth year.


Post 56

Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 9:37amSanction this postReply
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Hardin:

Another member describes his brain as “an imperfect tool, badly designed for the task… to deduce (sic) an objective reality.” He describes the “tricks our minds are hard-wired by evolution to perform” in terms that would have made Immanuel Kant proud. He becomes indignant when it is suggested that he try to understand Objectivism before attacking it, then protests that we are demanding that he become a “full-fledged believer,” and that I am telling him to “shut up” until he “fully concurs” with ideas he obviously has made no effort to comprehend.

Me:

The brain is not badly designed. It is not designed at all. The brain (human and otherwise) is a product of fairly gradual evolution, guided by processes, some of which are random and some of which are the consequence of the physical nature of Nature. The human brain is essentially an accident, but even so, it works pretty well. It does all those things that idealists attribute to Mind (which is a bogus concept).

Bob Kolker


Post 57

Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 9:59amSanction this postReply
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Jim - have ye read Rand's Romantic Manifesto ? in it is stated her views of the nature of literature, and why she wrote  the way she did..  read it - then say if AS is stilted or contrived or too long or whatever other disclaimers given to it....

Post 58

Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 10:19amSanction this postReply
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Bob -- agree. I was talking about the brain being "designed" in the sense of it being honed through evolution to perform a wide variety of tasks quite well, though somewhat imperfectly because of the kludged-together process of evolution transforming one function into another. I certainly wasn't referring to it in the creationist sense. Perhaps "designed" was an imperfect choice of words, though in a very rough and approximate sense the human brain has been partly designed by the choices individuals make in selecting a mate. If, for example, you deliberately chose one mate over another because of their ability to be kind, or have empathy, or for their overall intelligence, or their sense of humor, or any other characteristics of their brain, and then you have children, your children's genes reflect a miniscule change in the overall composition of the human gene pool that you've made --you've chosen to emphasize one set of traits over another, thus in a very imperfect sense of the word "designing" the intellect and emotional characteristics of your children.

Of course, if you just screw anything that you can nail, and wind up with children by accident, the word "design" would probably not apply in your individual case. ;)

Post 59

Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 10:44amSanction this postReply
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"Let's see if Henshaw can get it up...and prove Peikoff wrong that these internet debates aren't just a waste of time..."

I accept the gauntlet you've thrown down. I'll get a copy of Atlas Shrugged from the library when it opens this afternoon, and see if my impression was correct or faulty when I read it ten years ago and thought it needed editing.

If, on rereading a random page, I conclude that I was mistaken in my impression back then, and that thanks to ten years of maturation I now conclude with everyone else on this website that it is in fact the finest piece of technical writing ever penned, I hope you all will be gracious with me when I eat crow and concede defeat. ;0

Either way, some semblance of actual facts will have been injected into an internet debate, thereby warping the fabric of space-time. ;)

Re: my qualifications as a literary person, I'm not a professional editor and don't claim to be an expert. But, I have written two (unpublished) novels; learned quite a bit about editing, tightening, and polishing in the process; have been a member for years of reader's groups where we discuss literature and tear it apart and discuss what worked and what didn't; have read hundreds if not thousands of novels in my lifetime, and read voraciously; and published well over a hundred letters to the editor in the main papers in Hawaii (you can verify that with a google search using my name and either The Honolulu Star-Bulletin or The Honolulu Advertiser). Most people who know me would conclude that, while I don't have pretensions or illusions that I'm the best writer in the world, I do know something about how to write. Finally, the quality or lack thereof in demonstrated literacy in my posts here should count as objective evidence of whether I'm Teh Stooppid. ;)

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