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Post 20

Monday, February 18, 2008 - 11:19pmSanction this postReply
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 “For what its worth” department—some additional thoughts on the conventional view of rationality:

 So how does the average person think about the issue of rational action?  Here’s a clue from wikipedia, under the topic of rationality:  “All that is required for an action to be rational is that if one believes action X (which can be done) implies Y, and that Y is desirable, he or she does X.”

In other words, following David Hume, many people think of rationality strictly in terms of means rather than ends.   "Reason is, and ought only to be, the slave of the passions,” said Hume, “and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them." In other words, our reasoning powers can deal with facts and draw conclusions from them, but cannot dictate our choice of values; only our emotions can do this.  So if you told a anxious, troubled thief to be rational, he would not question his decision to be a thief—he would think about more effective ways to steal.  In terms of primary values, telling someone to be ‘rational’ is unlikely to have any impact other than to possibly enhance their overall effectiveness. We might as well be giving drug addicts tips on finding pushers or advising mass murderers to use more powerful guns.

 

Any psychologist trained in cognitive therapy knows that most people are not particularly proficient at introspection—i.e., at distinguishing feelings from thoughts.  That is one of the first steps a person must take to begin correcting his thinking errors—to discern what is, in fact, a thought and what is a feeling. It takes some training and skill to be able to do that.  The difficulty of distinguishing thoughts and feelings highlights the almost universal confusion and mysticism that surrounds the word “consciousness.”  This helps to explain the persistent appeal of religion: people find it easy to ascribe the creation of the universe to a supreme consciousness because they see their own mind as such a mystery and have no clear sense as to its origins or limitations. 

 

To have limitations is to have an identity. Before Kant, philosophers tended to see thinking and reasoning as ultimately divine or other worldly.    Plato said that the soul “participates” in universals, which exist in a kind of ghostly or heavenly reality, while Aristotle saw the soul as passively diaphanous (David Kelley’s excellent term)—we acquire knowledge by somehow “taking in” the external forms or essences. Aquinas believed that all knowledge ultimately comes from the mind of God. And Descartes was the source of the concept of the ghost in the machine.

 

Kant took a sharp departure from philosophical tradition, asserting that consciousness did have a specific identity, then concluding that its information processing mechanisms automatically distort the incoming data.  He contended that the mind’s inherent structure entails subjectivism, and most subsequent thinking has bought into that fatally flawed premise.  The growth of postmodern philosophy resembles a viral pestilence spreading like a subjectivist plague, until its diabolical hosts have infected the deepest foundations of human knowledge, with “thinkers” like Richard Rorty (in Contingency, Irony, and Solidarity) defending the “truth” that there is no such thing as intelligible truth, and Peter Unger publishing a paper aguing that “I do not exist.”  (He should know.)

 

When the average person hears the word “reason,” they probably think of  ‘mind,’ or ‘consciousness’—and many will assume you are simply referring to subjective experience.  Unless they have had the benefit of cognitive therapy or something comparable, their thinking is likely to be hopelessly confused, meandering through feelings, memories, imagination and impressions like a synaptic Buck Rogers swept up in the epistemological equivalent of a cosmic black hole.  Objectivists understand that the only way to insure the objectivity of your thinking is through a rigorous application of the laws of logic—but logic, too, has been totally corrupted by modern philosophy. Take a look at most academic studies on contemporary logic, and try to make sense of the inane list of topics: “modal logic,” “probabilistic logic,” “subjective logic” and even “fuzzy logic.”  (Yes, they use that exact term.)  All of them, in varying degrees, represent a rejection of classic Aristotelian logic.

 

So our challenge is how to permanently bury, once and for all, that one pervasive idea:  the mind is inherently subjective in its operations.  One good way to start might be with a primer explaining the axiom “consciousness is conscious” and all of its corollary implications, with additional introductory material on the nature and purpose of the laws of logic.

 

 

 


Post 21

Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 4:35amSanction this postReply
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Hardin:



Any psychologist trained in cognitive therapy knows that most people are not particularly proficient at introspection—i.e., at distinguishing feelings from thoughts. That is one of the first steps a person must take to begin correcting his thinking errors—to discern what is, in fact, a thought and what is a feeling. It takes some training and skill to be able to do that. The difficulty of distinguishing thoughts and feelings highlights the almost universal confusion and mysticism that surrounds the word “consciousness.” This helps to explain the persistent appeal of religion: people find it easy to ascribe the creation of the universe to a supreme consciousness because they see their own mind as such a mystery and have no clear sense as to its origins or limitations.

Me:

And for good reason. Introspection is a form of day dreaming, not a mode of cognition. How can a second or third party witness and verify the factual (empirical) validity of your introspection? Only you have access to them.

If a physicists ever cited his introspection as substantial support or evidence of his work in science he would be laughed out of the business (and rightly so).

Introspection is (from an empirical p.o.v.) ka ka. The closest I ever get to introspection is to remember what I thought about something. And that is as close as I wish to get.

Bob Kolker



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Post 22

Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 7:40amSanction this postReply
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Then, in all truthfulness, you don't  "know thyself..."...

Post 23

Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 8:55amSanction this postReply
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and even “fuzzy logic.”  (Yes, they use that exact term.)

I would say by definition that they're using that inexact term.

So our challenge is how to permanently bury, once and for all, that one pervasive idea:  the mind is inherently subjective in its operations.

I think you would first need to prove your underlying assumption, before you could convince people.  Your brain has evolved to be able to make decisions based on incomplete (dare I say "fuzzy") data.  Rarely do we have the luxury of having all relevant facts before us, and a complete knowledge of the POV of every person who would be affected by our choices, prior to making a choice.

It is not inevitable that evolution would have produced brains that exclusively work logically rather than to some extent subjectively, and in fact a strong argument can be made that the challenge for pushing an Objective, libertarian, or individualist viewpoint is that we are trying to use an imperfect tool, badly designed for the task -- our brains -- to deduce an objective reality.

Just because you want to attach two pieces of wood together using a Phillips headed screw doesn't mean you will necessarily have a Phillips headed screwdriver handy to complete the task -- you may have to resort to using a flat-bladed screwdriver or even a set of pliers to get the job done, and thus out of necessity do an imperfect job.


Post 24

Tuesday, February 19, 2008 - 11:31pmSanction this postReply
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Bob K,

Introspection is a form of day dreaming, not a mode of cognition…

 

Day dreaming?  Not hardly.  Not if performed, as it should be, with full mental focus.

 

The Ayn Rand Lexicon:

 

A major source of men's earned guilt in regard to philosophy—as well as in regard to their own minds and lives—is failure of introspection. Specifically, it is the failure to identify the nature and causes of their emotions.

(from The Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology)

 

In regard to one's own feelings, only a rigorously conscientious habit of introspection can enable one to be certain of the nature and causes of one's emotional responses.

(from “The Age of Envy”)

 

If a physicist ever cited his introspection as substantial support or evidence of his work in science he would be laughed out of the business (and rightly so).

 

That much is true.  On the other hand, psychologists must make use of it all the time. And rightly so.  And so should anyone who cares to develop self-awareness. 

 

Living consciously entails a concern to know not only external reality but also internal reality, the reality of my needs, feelings, aspirations, and motives, so that I am not a stranger or a mystery to myself.”

 

Nathaniel Branden, from The Six Pillars of Self-Esteem.


Post 25

Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 12:21amSanction this postReply
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Jim--

 

“Fuzzy logic” has nothing to do with making decisions based on inadequate data, which we all have to do from time to time.   It is a reasoning methodology founded on the premise that, contrary to classical logic, uncertainty and imprecision are inherent in human cognition.  In that sense, it is comparable to Heisenberg's "Uncertainty Principle."

 

The last three paragraphs of your post reflect an apparent unfamiliarity with Objectivist metaphysics and epistemology.  These matters are covered in detail in Galt’s Speech in Atlas Shrugged.  If you have read Galt’s Speech and disagree with it, nothing I could say could ever convince you, so it would be a waste of my time to try.

 

 


Post 26

Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 3:39amSanction this postReply
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Its all in your head, meaning your brain is the one doing all that stuff. There is no self standing independent substantial mind. The notion is essentially ancient superstition. Right up there with Gods, ghosts, spirits and Muses. Descartes nonsense is responsible for untold death and suffering. Dealing with minds is like dealing with the Humours. It is a false notion with pernicious consequences.

Bob Kolker

(Edited by Robert J. Kolker on 2/20, 9:59am)


Post 27

Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 7:42amSanction this postReply
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Dennis -- There seems to be some resistance at this site to the notion of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle describing a real phenomena. But, IIRC, as it was explained to me when I took physics in college, what Heisenberg was getting at was that the act of observing these tiny particles changed them, since the observation injected energy into the system. That is, to observe a small enough particle's exact position at a given point in time, you have to inject energy and stop the particle -- thus making its velocity unknowable. Conversely, to measure a particle's velocity, you have to inject energy in a different way into the system, and also refrain from stopping the particle, thus making its exact position unknowable.

If this is incorrect, I'd appreciate someone explaining what they think Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle means, and why it is wrong from an Objectivist POV, assuming that it is.

I read Atlas Shrugged about ten years ago, and at the time regarded it as an interesting (if somewhat clumsily written and replete with cartoonish characters and stilted dialogue that no real people would ever actually engage in) attack on socialism and collectivism. I certainly had no idea at the time there were people who had turned this and other Rand writings into something that, as an ex-Mormon, I'd say comes perilously close to a religious belief, complete with odd terminology and insistence on certain things being true from first principles -- albeit an atheistic religious belief along the lines of how some convicted atheists sound startlingly similar to fundy Christians in their fervent belief they hold the One True Light, and if only other people would Listen they'd be converted. It is amusing to see the similarities of how the Book of Mormon and Atlas Shrugged are regarded by LDS members and Objectivists, respectively, except that Objectivists at least understand that their book is *fiction*.

I'd have to go back and reread Galt's speech to see if I agreed with everything in it, or whether parts of it were objectionable to me.

* ducks, as outraged Objectivists pelt the heretic with figurative stones * ;)

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Post 28

Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 8:59amSanction this postReply
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Jim, in his last post, Dennis said you're unfamiliar with the Objectivist metaphysics and epistemology. That point that has been made before, which you conceded. Then he suggested you read about it in Galt's speech to find out what you disagree with and why (I previously recommended you listen to David Harriman's free lecture "The Crisis In Physics--And It's Cause" available on the ARI site). He added that if you don't agree with it, he couldn't convince you otherwise.

You responded with an irrelevant opinion about how you thought Atlas Shrugged was "clumsily written" with "cartoonish characters" and "stilted dialogue" (I guess you're also unfamiliar with Romanticism).

Not content to stop there, you blithely opine on how Objectivists who uphold fundamental truths with conviction are similar to religious zealots. So the notion of fundamental philosophical truths that aren't mystical and don't require acceptance on blind faith is inconceivable to you?

You end with an awkward attempt at humor. That's a common thing for people to do after a cowardly attack.

Look, at this point, an honest person would do one of two things: 1) familiarize himself somewhat with the Objectivist metaphysics and epistemology using resources that are widely and easily available (then cite *specific* points of disagreement, if you wish), or 2) stop commenting on such issues and insulting people who *are* familiar with them. Your choice.
(Edited by Jon Trager on 2/20, 1:11pm)


Post 29

Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 9:41amSanction this postReply
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Why the hostility to formal logic that you display in your original article and in #25?

My impression of fuzzy logic was pretty much the same as Henshaw's.  Speaking more strictly, I thought it was a formalization or automation of what we do every day with limited information, yet you state that it has "nothing to do" with this.  Can you refer us to a source?

Your beef with modal logic is similarly puzzling.  When I studied it in school I found it interesting, and nothing I observed at the time about myself, the other students, the TA, the teacher or (so far as I could infer) the authors of the textbook struck me as evidence of depravity.  Like fuzzy logic (I thought), it systematizes certain everyday cognitions.  When we consider, however informally, the costs and benefits of a prospective course of action, we typically start by asking what has already happened in similar situations, and only later do we start imagining other possibilities.  Here is an instance of one of modal logic's axioms: what's true is possible.  When I program I often make decisions like the code guarantees that it won't come here unless some condition has been met; thus I don't have to test for it at this point.  That's another axiom: what's necessarily true is true.

Anyway, I thought Objectivists liked Aristotle, and he was one of the pioneers.  The last chapter of Atlas Shrugged quotes his most famous discussion of this, from Metaphysics Gamma.  As memory serves it's the only direct quote from him in all of Rand's published writings.

As for the other kinds you mention, I'm not sure what they are, so I can't agree or disagree with your dismissal of them.  If it's not over your readers' heads, could you fill us in?


Post 30

Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 11:26amSanction this postReply
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Jim,

 

Heisenberg argued that, because we cannot precisely specify the position and momentum of subatomic particles at the same instant, their behavior defies prediction or measurement, and that this somehow invalidates the law of causality.  He leaped from an observation about our present scientific efforts to measure a subatomic phenomenon to the assertion that, in principle, it is impossible to obtain such measurements in the subatomic realm.  Heisenberg followed that with an even bigger leap:  that such phenomena in physics do not exist in nature unless and until we observe them.

 

The implications of this are clear: (1) Reality is subjective—we create that which we observe; (2) Uncertainty and imprecision are inherent in human cognition.

 

This leap from current limitations on our knowledge to conclusions about the nature of reality and the validity of human cognition is simply unjustified.  It amounted to a massive non sequitor.

 

As Peikoff explained in OPAR: “Even if it were true that owing to a lack of information we could never exactly predict a subatomic event--and this is highly debatable--it would not show that, in reality, the event was causeless… Our ignorance of certain measurements, however, does not affect their reality or the consequent operation of nature.”

 

And present uncertainty in one specific delimited scientific area does not prove anything about the inherent limitations of human knowledge.

 

I agree with Jon Trager’s comments about your subsequent remarks insulting Objectivists and disparaging Atlas Shrugged.  Apparently you think we should be eager to engage in endless debates about fundamental Objectivist principles anytime they are challenged.  That’s rather like telling a doctoral level mathematician that they should be excited by arithmetic.  When I see evidence of a certain level of ignorance, it is clear that a lengthy debate will follow which could be avoided if the person were familiar with certain foundational materials.  I see no reason to keep re-inventing the wheel.  It is very time consuming and not cost-effective.

 

Back in the days of the Nathaniel Branden Institute, they had a rule for guests who attended individual lectures instead of the entire course.  Guests were asked not to submit questions in the Q & A period unless they had read The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged, to avoid wasting everyone else’s time.  It is a simple courtesy to others who do not wish to keep going over familiar territory again and again.  After a certain point in time, you get bored explaining the infinite regress argument to religionists (i.e., that their God also had to be created). 

 

If you demonstrate some rudimentary understanding of Objectivist metaphysics/epistemology and have a specific question, we are usually delighted to deal with it.  But kindly do your homework first.

 


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Post 31

Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 11:58amSanction this postReply
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The implications of this are clear: (1) Reality is subjective—we create that which we observe; (2) Uncertainty and imprecision are inherent in human cognition.
 
I think the points are more subtle than that.  The implication isn't that reality is subjective, but rather that the act of observing something may change the subsequent reality.  This fact is easily observed -- people, and politicians in particular, act differently when a camera is recording them than otherwise.  The presence of a camera -- of an observer -- changes what happens, without making that reality subjective.  The other implication is that while there may be an objective reality, the tool for observing that reality -- our brains and eyes and other senses -- are fallible and can observe imprecisely, or see things that aren't even really there.  Browse through a book on optical illusions to see what tricks our minds are hard-wired by evolution to perform.  Walk outside and try to observe ultraviolet or infrared radiation, which objectively exist but which our senses aren't able to detect.
 
I agree with Jon Trager’s comments about your subsequent remarks insulting Objectivists and disparaging Atlas Shrugged.
 
My intent was not to insult, but to point out some subjective observations about perceived similarities in culture between two otherwise disparate groups of people that may have some relevance about how Objectivists are perceived, and thus why they are less than fully successful in proselytizing their beliefs.  Similar to the ultraviolet radiation thing, these were things that were readily apparent to me, and to which some Objectivists may be oblivious.  If you wish to construe attempts at constructive remarks as insults, that is your prerogative.
 
As for "disparaging" Atlas Shrugged, again my intention wasn't to insult, but rather to point out what should be painfully apparent to anyone who has extensive literary experience -- that the book, while conveying some great truths, is objectively poorly written, and that this again may hinder proselytizing efforts.
 
Guests were asked not to submit questions in the Q & A period unless they had read The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged, to avoid wasting everyone else’s time.  It is a simple courtesy to others who do not wish to keep going over familiar territory again and again ... If you demonstrate some rudimentary understanding of Objectivist metaphysics/epistemology and have a specific question, we are usually delighted to deal with it.  But kindly do your homework first.
 
I have read The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged.  Is it your contention that nobody should post comments here unless they meet your standards of knowledge of Objectivist theory, and fully concur with the conclusions drawn from that theory?  Did they hold a meeting a while back appointing you the thread arbiter?  Do you think you can get converts to your belief system if you tell newbies they can't ask questions or join any discussions until they've been converted and pass muster as full-fledged believers?  If the Mormon Church told investigators that they were expected to shut up and not say anything at all until they had earned their Temple Recommends, that would be the end of conversions to that faith.  The LDS Church would implode within one generation.








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Post 32

Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 1:20pmSanction this postReply
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Hardin writes:



Heisenberg argued that, because we cannot precisely specify the position and momentum of subatomic particles at the same instant, their behavior defies prediction or measurement, and that this somehow invalidates the law of causality. He leaped from an observation about our present scientific efforts to measure a subatomic phenomenon to the assertion that, in principle, it is impossible to obtain such measurements in the subatomic realm. Heisenberg followed that with an even bigger leap: that such phenomena in physics do not exist in nature unless and until we observe them.



The implications of this are clear: (1) Reality is subjective—we create that which we observe; (2) Uncertainty and imprecision are inherent in human cognition.

I reply:

This is uttermost nonsense. If you want to see a really teeny tiny sub atomic particle you have to shine a light on it such that the wave length of the light has the same size as the particle. Otherwise you don't see where the particle is. However, the shorter the wave length the more engery. Thus in seeing where the particle is, you knock it about and you have no idea where it is going. So there is an inverse relationship between determining the position and determining the momentum (mass x velocity) of the object.

The Heisenberg relation is really derived from a theorem in classical optics. Google Heisenberg's Microscope which is his gedanken for why the inverse relation between position and momentum hold.

And pay no attention to L.P. on physics. On matters of physics and math, L.P. is an ignoramus. On top of that he is an invincible ignoramus.

There is also a fancy mathematical reason behind the uncertainty relationship. Certain observations (which are modeled as Hermitean operators on a Hilbert Space) do not commute. But that is the fancy part. The first part about wavelength, energy and momentum is the physical reason why the Heisenberg relation holds.

Bob Kolker


Post 33

Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 1:30pmSanction this postReply
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Peter,

My objection to certain recent innovations in formal logic has much to do with the epistemological implications of the manner in which they are typically described.  I am not sufficiently knowledgeable on the topic to say that such “logics” are entirely without value.  (Some alleged experts claim that ‘fuzzy logic’ is crucial to modern technology.)  Their epistemological underpinnings, however, are disastrous.  “Fuzzy logic” is typically promoted as a modern alternative to the “antiquated” notion of absolute truth.

 

For example,

 

In modern science one must use the rules of logic put forth by Aristotle. He

taught that a thing was either true or false, and not both. Postmodernism emphasizes

fuzzy logic as an approach to decision based on “degrees of truth” rather than the usual “true-false.” Fuzzy theory resembles human reasoning in its use of approximate

information and partial truth. Hence it is ideal for controlling nonlinear systems and for modeling complex systems where ambiguity and uncertainty is common.”

 

Ayn Rand defined logic—classical Aristotelian logic—as “the art of non-contradictory identification.” In Objectivism, logic is the basic tool by which we can assure that our reasoning is correct and our knowledge is objective. Because most modern innovations in logic are presented as rejections of Aristotle and classical logic, it is obvious that, at least in the way they are frequently characterized, they represent an assault on the very concept of absolute truth.

 

For an interesting study of how these ideas are used by postmodernist thinkers to promote their insidious ideological agendas, see Fashionable Nonsense: Postmodern Intellectuals’ Abuse of Science, by Alan Sokal and Jean Bricmont.  For a general introduction to non-classical logic, see Possibilities and Paradox: An Introduction to Modal and Many-Valued Logic, by J.C. Beall and Bas C. van Fraasen.


Post 34

Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 2:07pmSanction this postReply
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Logic is the science/discipline of valid inference. Logic is about getting from premises to conclusions in one piece. Rand's definition is bogus.

If you want to find out what logic is ask people who do it for a living. Would you ask a novelist with a thick Russsian accent what shoemaking is? Of course not. You would ask a shoemaker. Ditto for logic.

See

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic

Bob Kolker


Post 35

Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 3:09pmSanction this postReply
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Bob, Bob, Bob.

==================
Logic is the science/discipline of valid inference. Logic is about getting from premises to conclusions in one piece. Rand's definition is bogus.

If you want to find out what logic is ask people who do it for a living. Would you ask a novelist with a thick Russsian accent what shoemaking is? Of course not. You would ask a shoemaker. Ditto for logic.

See

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic

Bob Kolker
==================

First of all, a correct use of logic (something which you have correctly identified) overturns the inference you made that Rand's definition is bogus (and that's so ironic that it's actually pretty funny) "Valid inference" and "noncontradictory identification" aren't separate tasks, Bob.

And secondly, your appeal-to-professional-authority -- which you, yourself, violated by citing wikipedia (which is "anyman's" encyclopedia) -- is a fallacy of logic, itself.

There are 2 flaws in the thinking that logic's best known by our professional logicians:

(1) the "professional" in a room is not always the "expert" in that room (and I have dozens and dozens of clear examples of this). Professionals are those that do a job for money. Experts are those who can best do jobs.

(2) the subject matter, logic, is not a special science (knowable only by special means) -- but a general science

Ed

Post 36

Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 3:29pmSanction this postReply
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Ed says:

(2) the subject matter, logic, is not a special science (knowable only by special means) -- but a general science

I reply:

That is correct. Logic is a general and abstract discipline and is not empirically based as are the sciences of physics and chemistry.

In any case, logic is about valid inference and not about identification or establishment of fact. Logic is a tool used by mathematics and the other sciences.

What is non-contradictory identification? Identification of what? This is a misdirected "definition". Logic is about the relation of propositions or formulas, to wit establishing when formula A is a consequence of formula B with respect to inference rule R. Logic is not about events in the the real world. It is about propositions (statements, formulas) that may or may not assert something about events in the world. Applied logic supplies concrete or material interpretations to otherwise abstract formulas. Applied logic bears a similar relation to formal/abstract logic as does applied mathematics to pure mathematics.

Bob Kolker


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Post 37

Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 3:32pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Kolker,

If you actually read Dennis’ post #30, instead of responding in a knee-jerk fashion to the presence of Peikoff’s name, you would see that Dennis (and Peikoff) are not criticizing Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle, per se, but the conclusions Heisenberg, and others responsible for the Copenhagen interpretation, drew from it.  Heisenberg, et al. concluded that a particle cannot have, simultaneously, a precise position and a precise momentum.  They were making an ontological claim, not just an epistemic claim.  This is what Peikoff and Harriman criticize, and they are right to do so.  There is no empirical result that requires this conclusion; it comes from the Copenhagen interpretation of the formalism of quantum mechanics, which is not the only game in town.

Thanks,

Glenn


Post 38

Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 3:37pmSanction this postReply
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(Some alleged experts claim that ‘fuzzy logic’ is crucial to modern technology.)  Their epistemological underpinnings, however, are disastrous.  “Fuzzy logic” is typically promoted as a modern alternative to the “antiquated” notion of absolute truth.
 
"Fuzzy logic", as applied to computers, is a type of heuristic reasoning -- a way of getting an approximately correct answer given insufficient data to have a perfect answer.  If someone tries to extrapolate this technology as proof that there must be one way of understanding the universe, then they're going beyond what it means.
 
An example of fuzzy logic would be a computer calculating that a certain value was somewhere in the vicinity of 0.99989765301, and then acting as if the answer was 1.0, in order to prevent the machine from locking up due to the uncertainty.  A human example of fuzzy logic was when I met my future wife through a personals ad, and it turned out that I had to make a decision shortly after meeting her whether to pack up and move to a different state with her.  I had really imperfect info to go on to make a major life decision, but I had to make a decision, and my life changed drastically as a result.
 
I hate to keep beating this drum, but Objectivism seems like certain religious groups, where they're so committed to something that has to be The Absolute Truth according to their philosophy, that they feel threatened by any data or technology or theory that even implies that maybe, just maybe, they might be a wee bit mistaken.




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Post 39

Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 4:10pmSanction this postReply
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Fletcher writes:

If you actually read Dennis’ post #30, instead of responding in a knee-jerk fashion to the presence of Peikoff’s name, you would see that Dennis (and Peikoff) are not criticizing Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle, per se, but the conclusions Heisenberg, and others responsible for the Copenhagen interpretation, drew from it. Heisenberg, et al. concluded that a particle cannot have, simultaneously, a precise position and a precise momentum. They were making an ontological claim, not just an epistemic claim. This is what Peikoff and Harriman criticize, and they are right to do so. There is no empirical result that requires this conclusion; it comes from the Copenhagen interpretation of the formalism of quantum mechanics, which is not the only game in town.

I reply:

Compton's experiment and Milikan's experiment verify Einstein's findings on the effect of E.M. radiation (i.e. photons) on electrons (and other particles). Short wave light does -in fact- kick the living shit out of small particles and makes it impossible to find out where they were going before being observed.

Heisenberg Uncertainty is a fact about what happens, not just about what is or might be known. And it is not logically bound to the Copenhagen Interpretation. The Heisenberg Principle is true in any interpretation of quantum theory (but not including the De Broigle Bohm version; that is something else entirely). If you shine an energetic enough light on a small massive particle you disrupt its previous motion.

Working physicists use a mathematical formalism to do quantum physics. They do not invoke interpretations. The mathematics IS the theory, not some interpretation. Nowadays the Copenhagen interpretation is not taken all that seriously. Decoherence is preferred these days.

Bob Kolker


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