About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadPage 0Page 1Forward one pageLast Page


Post 0

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 - 6:11amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Well said - the key indeed is "Integration", recognising that the whole is a seaming of the parts, not a battling of the parts....

Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 1

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 - 6:12amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
In his very thoughtful article, Joe wrote:

So next time someone talks about finding a balance between two approaches, take a look to see if they have an integrated standard in mind, or whether they intend to "feel their way" to a decision.

Doesn't the cardinal value of Purpose do this in the Objectivist ethics?  Stephen Covey calls this a Personal Mission Statement® but both have the same essential meaning.  The unifying statement of productive purpose gives a context to everything in a person's life.  Hence, a farmer might integrate his children into his workforce from an early age while an engineer might place them into day care.  Both have the same desired emotional payoff, storge, but have different ways of achieving that payoff based on the context of each man's life purpose.

(Edited by Luke Setzer on 3/14, 8:40am)


Post 2

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 - 12:42pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
This is an excellent article. 

If I might make a suggestion... I believe the article would benefit immensely from a few short examples of concrete ways an integration might be done - not just for the parents bringing the child into their life, but also for people integrating short-term pursuits with long-term goals.  Well done.


Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 3

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 - 12:51pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I heartily agree with the idea that integrating one's values, and not simply "balancing" them, is the key to a happy life.  One can balance a seesaw by placing a ton of gold on one side and a ton of manure on the other.  The idea of balance leads to the notion that one can cheat now, and make it up later.  Integration keeps one mindful that all actions have both short and long-term consequences.  If one's values are integrated, then they do not conflict, One can try to balance conflicting values, and fail, ever teetering, and never as serene as one would be with an integrated life.

Integration in itself implies balance, but is more than balance.  That is, one can, for a time,  balance a quarter on its edge, but a roll of quarters will balance on its end much more easily.

When our lives are truly integrated, we reap the reward not only of the passion that our values generate, but also the serenity of a life without internal conflict.  I define happiness as passionate serenity, and the integration of one's values is what makes passionate serenity possible.

Ted Keer 


Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Post 4

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 - 2:02pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I was very happy to see this topic brought up. I've been thinking about it for a while in relation to the topic of reason and emotion. I recently edited a page on Wikipedia dedicated to the Rush album HEMISPHERES, which deals with the reason/emotion dichotomy, portrayed as a battle of Apollo versus Dionysus (similar to Nietzsche's BIRTH OF TRAGEDY and Rand's own essay, "Apollo and Dionysus.") The album end with the suggestion of a "bringer of balance" between the two. A great album, I think, and ambitious, but I always found the answer of "balance" to be too simplistic, and argued for not balance, but integration. Someone edited out my "opinion" on this on the wiki page, fair enough, I suppose, if opinions don't count. But to be fair, I didn't know how to explain this, beyond the suggestion of integration alone, which is in itself glib. So I was very glad to see this topic brought up here.

Post 5

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 - 2:55pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Just remember, all living organisms of necessity have to be by their nature integrated - else they could not survive..... this includes, of course, humans.......

Post 6

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 - 8:17pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Thanks for the feedback guys.

Luke, purpose can work as a powerful means of integration.  I don't think it's enough, though.  Setting long term plans is a key way to integrate your choices over time, but what would life be like if you just focused on those goals.  You could easily make your life full of suffering to achieve something as rapidly as possible, or you might undercut the value of the achievement by leaving yourself in a bad situation.  I've written elsewhere (like in my Meaning of Life speech) that we have to view life as a process.  If you focus on a single goal and work to achieve it, you may succeed but at the cost of making that process unbearable or more difficult.  So goal directed action, or a more unified "purpose" are tools of integration, but to be successful at living, you have to integrate all of your other values.

Steve, it's a common complaint that my writing doesn't have enough concrete examples.  I work on it, but writing isn't very enjoyable to me in the first place.  So I end up writing in a style that I enjoy, which tends to focus more on the abstract ideas since I'm learning from those as well.

If you really think more concrete examples would be worthwhile, I seriously recommend that you write a related article focusing more on the "how to".  I'm sure people would find it useful.

Oh by the way, I think in a conversation we had a few weeks ago on open vs. closed systems I mentioned my thoughts here about the problem with looking for a balance.  It should make more sense now if it wasn't clear.

Ted, excellent comments.  The "passionate serenity" is an interesting idea.  Since we're on the topic of writing articles, maybe you could put your thoughts into words for our benefit.

Joe, that's a good example.  And I'm glad you found my article useful.

Another word people use for that balancing is "moderation".  They avoid the "extremes" by trying to straddle the two standards.  For instance, I think people refer to "moderates" in the Islamic world as people who straddle two standards.  The first is literal and fundamental Islam.  The other standard is Western Civilization, including libertarian politics (women's rights, retaliatory force only, objective concepts of justice), pro-reason epistemology (use of persuasion, reality focus, pro-science), etc.  So a moderate is someone who still accepts the validity of Islam, but interprets it in a loose way to be more compatible with civilization.

Robert, your post 5 is a little too strongly worded.  I find most human beings are not well integrated.  Obviously it hurts their ability to survive, but we can't say that "they could not survive".  Otherwise, we'd have to conclude that everyone is already well integrated, and so there's no point in discussing the topic.


Post 7

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 - 8:55pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
To survive as a human - is to flourish, which few do, because unlike other organisms, humans have to learn how to survive.....

Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 8

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 - 9:06pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Robert, your post didn't say that.  And it comes off as just confusing, as you're using "surviving" in a very strange way.  The "as a human" qualifier doesn't completing change the meaning of the term.  It narrows it's meaning, as qualifiers are supposed to.

If you mean that being non-integrated in life hurts you, then just say so.  But your statement suggests a life or death alternative that isn't there.  I find it distracting since it makes people focus on your non-standard use of the English language.


Post 9

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 - 9:27pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Joe, how the genetic composition of an individual do you think can influence how that persons integrates in life?
Ciro 

(Edited by Ciro D'Agostino on 3/14, 9:34pm)


Post 10

Wednesday, March 14, 2007 - 9:55pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ciro, I'm not really sure what you're getting at.  Integration in the forms I discussed in the article are conceptual methods.  There's no genetic component.  Anyone can do them.  I guess if someone was smarter they might have an easier time figuring out how to integrate, but I tend to think that's more about mental habits and tackling problems than it is about pure intelligence, whatever that might be.

If you're talking about integrating various aspects of your life, obviously there will be some difference.  Some people may abilities that are enhanced by their genes, like tall people playing basketball.  So the precise methods of integrating different values would be different for everyone, but there's no good way to generalize that.


Post 11

Thursday, March 15, 2007 - 2:18amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Joe,

I hoped you would create some examples because I'm still not clear on the principles involved. 

I am clear that this is an important issue.  Do you have a link to the "Time and Value" speech mentioned in the article?



Post 12

Thursday, March 15, 2007 - 12:56amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
i have recently joined this site,tell me how can i socialise more on this

Post 13

Thursday, March 15, 2007 - 8:07amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Rachita, join http://aynrand.meetup.com/174/ and I will make you Assistant Organizer.  This will empower you to schedule your own events at times and locations of your choosing.

In other news, I have seen over my many years the phenomenon of the deliberately short term romantic relationship.  I have long wondered about these.  Whether I attended a weekend seminar, a week long camp, a six week retreat, or some other activity, I would see people hook up and date and perhaps even fall in love knowing full well they would have to go their separate ways at the end.  This especially holds true of adolescents who cannot fully control where they live, etc.

Would someone care to comment on this phenomenon and whether it can integrate successfully into the theme of Joe's article?

In other words, are deliberate romantic flings rational despite the known, timed farewell at the end -- perhaps never to see each other again?


Post 14

Thursday, March 15, 2007 - 8:56amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
This is mostly an intellectual forum, not a place to "socialize."

Sanction: 13, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 13, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 13, No Sanction: 0
Post 15

Thursday, March 15, 2007 - 9:07amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Yes, there is no hope in treating ethics in terms of particular interests, short or long term. But there is a sense in which virtue ethics, which identifies guidelines to living, secures one's rational self-interest. Because this sense of "interest" is not cashed out in terms of distinct, particular items--this car, that insurance policy, this hug, that vacation--but in terms of a method for living--honestly, courageously, prudently, productively, generously, and so forth. The moral virtues, when diligently practiced, secure for one (even through their practice, not only by way of the results) a happy life, which is an ongoing, continuous, self-generated process. It does, of course, include benefits today, tomorrow, later, in the far future, etc. These benefits will involve pleasures, satisfactions, achievements, fulfilled hopes, adventures, and the rest, all strung out over a life time. 

Post 16

Thursday, March 15, 2007 - 9:42amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
 Because this sense of "interest" is not cashed out in terms of distinct, particular items--this car, that insurance policy, this hug, that vacation--but in terms of a method for living--honestly, courageously, prudently, productively, generously, and so forth.


I agree 100% Mr. Machan



Post 17

Thursday, March 15, 2007 - 5:04pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

Joseph,

 

What an interesting topic, and well-written, as well. I have a few comments.

 

First, you noted that balancing acts between multiple choices with separate outcomes necessarily involved “two standards” and that such a decision-making methodology necessarily prevents one from adhering to an integrated value system, since it’s a competing system. I would argue, on the other hand, that the majority of people adhere both to a unified value system and to a principle of moderation as a way of engaging their unified system with brevity, and that people break down seemingly opposing results (based on multiple options, and what you refer to as two standards) into a single unified standard—the present value of happiness—and that they do so intuitively.

 

Put simply, decisions can’t be made outside the context of a unified moral vision and a view of one’s entire life situation, encompassing both a sense of right and wrong, and of how one’s actions will benefit or hurt one in the short- and long-run. To forget one’s moral values while making a decision and to do so outside of the context of one’s life situation would require either insanity (as a temporary or permanent state, or a chemically-induced one) or amnesia. Even degenerates have a unified system of morality- intuitively speaking- the problem is that their value judgments are off—not that they lack them. What you deride as a person’s emotions is just a person’s intuitive value system speaking to them in terms that they may not think of when not decomposing values on a time-consuming, deconstructive level. Emotions are a person’s short-cut to a decision when thinking through unimportant details that may not be worth-while based on time constraints or when the judgments leading to a decision are complex, have already been undertaken, and therefore require no further intellectual reach to arrive at a conclusion. Unfortunately, some people take the emotional short-cut without recognizing the difference between the situation of the present state, and the details regarding previously thought-out states for which today’s emotions were derived from previous experiences, leading to a paradigm shift in their unified ethical system.

 

The reason why the principal of moderation comes in handy is to help guide people to the optimal state of happiness as options filter through a person’s integrated value system. A seemingly minute action with a large array of options may lead to hundreds or thousands of separate chains of events as results, all too complicated and seemingly unimportant to contemplate individually, so people design systems or “rules of thumb” such as the moderation or balancing concepts, to help guide them through such decision-making processes without losing inordinate amounts of time or mental resources, while viewing that decision through the lens of their unified value systems- since the rule of thumb is based on their value system and will usually lead to the right outcome. Of course, when people simply label concepts as moderate or extreme (you used the Muslim in your example), this argument doesn’t hold, but then we’re just talking about linguistic conventions- the misuse, and therefore the mild disintegration of language. Also, rules of thumb are just that- a convention that typically works but not in all circumstances.

 

The process that drives every sane person’s decision-making (whether thinking long-term/short-term, physical pleasure/health risks, etc.) is the present value of their happiness. So, the same amount of happiness 10 years down the line is not equivalent to the same amount today, for example, because there’s a discount rate (if we could quantify it, and it related at all to finance, we could say it may be in the area of 4-10%). We have to apply a discount rate because of the risk that we may not be around in 10 years, or because we may not have the capacity to enjoy the same thing 10 years out as much as we could today. However, to over-do it for today, while gaining minimal marginal happiness in the present, to the great detriment of 10 years from today wouldn’t make sense in the unified system of discounted happiness, so a person would be unlikely to spend his life savings on a 1-year trip around the world, to the great detriment of his retirement down the line, as an example. In your world, this person has two standards- retire well 10 years from now, or vacation in the present, and the two standards are completely incompatible. But intuitively, that person decomposes the options and determines what will bring him the greatest discounted value of happiness- so most people would probably pick the secure retirement over the grand trip. Or maybe they’d go for a five-day cruise instead. Your professional business requires maximizing net profits today and tomorrow, and discounting tomorrow's profits to the present value. That's what people do intuitively with their happiness.

 

While people don’t think about such things as discount rates (which would be intuitively higher for less risk-averse people) and discounting their future happiness to a present, and therefore comparable, value or range of values, they can intuitively grasp the concept of trade-offs, and diminishing marginal happiness with vastly increasing trade-offs near the margins. And that’s where the “trade-off” and “balancing acts” comes into play. Rather than being an alternative system to a unified system of ethics, it’s a filter through which decisions can be made more easily in the context of their unified system of ethics in a time-compressed manner. I see nothing contradictory in that.


Post 18

Thursday, March 15, 2007 - 8:02pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
While the parent believes his or her life is in conflict with their child's, and so sacrifice is necessary for one or both of them, they'll always be stuck feeling their way to the right solution, combining their decisions with guilt when they don't sacrifice, and resentful when they do.
I love how that quote gets to "the heart" of the problem. In a Phil Donahue interview (as well as in her writing), Rand talked about how a man might give up everything he owns -- if that's what is needed to save his beloved wife. He's got a cardinal value in her, with which all of his lesser values simply ... do not ... "compete."

Ed



Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 19

Thursday, March 15, 2007 - 10:09pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Scott,

I enjoyed your post and liked your explanation of discounting pleasure to a present value.  That observation is valuable in this context, but did you see the full complexity alluded to in Joseph's article?

Where you said,
"Put simply, decisions can’t be made outside the context of a unified moral vision and a view of one’s entire life situation, encompassing both a sense of right and wrong, and of how one’s actions will benefit or hurt one in the short- and long-run. To forget one’s moral values while making a decision and to do so outside of the context of one’s life situation would require either insanity (as a temporary or permanent state, or a chemically-induced one) or amnesia."
That is true in a sense, but it misses the point.  People can make mistakes while believing themselves to be acting morally and while attempting to maximize their benefits.  I took Joseph's article as addressing the processes and methods for making decisions that feel like they call for 'balance'.  Put simply, two numbers can't be added together outside of the context of number theory, but they can be added incorrectly - which is a call for method.

And at one point when discussing the discount rate of future happiness you say,
"...if we could quantify it..."
And that is one of the problems that Joseph addresses.  He says,
"...there is no rational method identified for determining how to find that balance... What you're left with is choosing based on what you feel is more important.  In other words, you're using your emotions to decide." 
So he is assuming that the person may end up using what you refer to as the filtered effects of their unified ethics.  But, because emotions aren't tools of cognition - any attempt to use them beyond quick indicators can lead to errors.  Your discount rate is an improvement but only in degree - it still carries the fatal flaw of attempting to access your "jolly meter" (as Aaron once called it on one of these threads).  If that is all there is, fine.  But if this 'integration' he refers to is a better method, I want to understand it.

Also, I didn't read the article as implying that one must always end up in that two-standards situation or that this was the only time that a person felt they needed to find a 'balance.'  

Joseph mentioned 'balance' in conjunction with incompatible goals.  He also mentioned being caught between false dichotomies.  And he has mentioned the need to approach life as a process - this most certainly changes the shape of your goals doesn't it? 

And his solution of finding an integration (like a totally different goal that subsumes the two goals that were 'needing' balance) - that is more complex as a homework assignment when your integration has to be into a process.  My mind is saying there is a lot more here but I'm still stuck trying to digest what is the whole of this subject area. 

I came away from Joseph's article with these impressions: 
  • His approach and the issues raised are very important because the integration of purpose, long-term happiness, and the issues of navigation through life's hurdles (which are spread out from short-term through long-term) is without a reasoned approach - without adequate guidelines - and often entangled with psychological concepts and issues.
  • The understanding of life as a process and the concept of integration as he used it fascinated me, but I want to hear more - more explanation and more examples.  Right now my thinking it way too fuzzy on this.


Post to this threadPage 0Page 1Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.