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Post 20

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 10:48amSanction this postReply
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Oops, I forgot one of the best ...

7)
http://www.beyondveg.com/nicholson-w/evo-creation/evo-vs-creation1a.shtml

Sorry!

Ed


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Post 21

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 6:24pmSanction this postReply
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You go girl!   You've got what it takes to succeed so don't let anyone get in your way or blow your high. 

Some unsolicited romance advice:  Don't even consider dating Dean.  He is not a good match for you at all.

Kat


Post 22

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 7:15pmSanction this postReply
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Kat, yes I agree because.

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Post 23

Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 10:42pmSanction this postReply
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I'm choosing not to engage in posts 21 & 22 out in the forum. I am available by RoR Mail but please consider that I'm not going to engage in background battles existing before I got here. Honestly, I'm more loyal to myself than anyone else, so I'm not interested in taking sides. Thank you! :)

Post 24

Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 12:37amSanction this postReply
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Trying to think of something insightful to say. Doh!
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores
on 3/16, 12:41am)


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Post 25

Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 7:31pmSanction this postReply
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Straight thinkers: Well that's why people like Demski is not taken seriously on the scientific front by his science peers. He's give up the straight thinking. It's not like scientists are some monolithic entity and we're all Borg-- there's a lot of discussing and debating amongst scientific fields. Other people, like E.O. Wilson, are attacked as well by their prominent peers. Read enough science books, and these debates will come out. Science is a process. It's not a mega-church or a mind-meld.

PhDs: It's not like it's a walk in the park to get a PhD either. But would I be *more likely* to listen to a dozen cognitive neuroscience PhDs over a dozen economists, on the subject of cognitive neuroscience? Yes, I'm more likely. Would I just swallow what those PhDs say? No, I would think on their responses ("get a second opinion"), compare, contrast, and see what other research has been done-- or do my own research.

Being a student of science I've been exposed to all kinds of attacks already on science in general, and sometimes my scientific subfield. Oftentimes I know within 20 minutes the other person hasn't done half the reading I did, and isn't even in the field at all. It sucks because if they feel quite alright dismissing me about what I'm studying (and they're not), calling names, labelling me, or attacking me without the requisite knowledge, then they have no respect for the work I'm doing, and no respect for the fact that I may learn something valuable that they might want in the future. When it gets this far, well, what would I be thinking?

I still stand by the "do not dismiss a book unless you have written one" sentences. I've lived enough to know that what may not be for me is relevant to someone else. I've lived enough to know that it *is* hard to write a book, because my mother has written two and each one took 2 years. I've lived enough to know that making a movie is hard, because for my first degree I had to write, produce, shoot, edit, and compile short videos. I've lived enough to know that making art is hard. I've lived through piano lessons to know that playing a piece is hard, much less composing a piece. I've lived through enough martial arts to know that it's grueling. I know painting is hard, I know music is hard, I know science is hard. I don't know if engineering is hard, but I'm willing to bet that it is. I don't know if architecture is hard, but you know, I have respect for it.

And what I mean, and what I think Dave Eggers means, is the reactionary dismissal of good work. A quack's work will not be good, a quack's work will not stand. Look at Freud. A scientist's work, if it is good, *will* stand. Look at Newtonian mechanics-- Galileo-- Feynman-- Francis Crick. This is the dismissal of *good* work. Not *any* work. Please, do not just react. Read, and think.

I am here to tell you that I have, a few years ago, found my way out of that thicket of comparison and relentless suspicion and judgment. And it is a nice feeling. Because, in the end, no one will ever give a shit who has kept shit "real" except the two or three people, sitting in their apartments, bitter and self-devouring, who take it upon themselves to wonder about such things. The keeping real of shit matters to some people, but it does not matter to me. It's fashion, and I don't like fashion, because fashion does not matter.

What matters is that you do good work. What matters is that you produce things that are true and will stand. What matters is that the Flaming Lips's new album is ravishing and I've listened to it a thousand times already, sometimes for days on end, and it enriches me and makes me want to save people. What matters is that it will stand forever, long after any narrow-hearted curmudgeons have forgotten their appearance on goddamn 90210. What matters is not the perception, nor the fashion, not who's up and who's down, but what someone has done and if they meant it. What matters is that you want to see and make and do, on as grand a scale as you want, regardless of what the tiny voices of tiny people say. Do not be critics, you people, I beg you. I was a critic and I wish I could take it all back because it came from a smelly and ignorant place in me, and spoke with a voice that was all rage and envy.


The whole piece here.

Post 26

Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 7:47pmSanction this postReply
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PhDs: It's not like it's a walk in the park to get a PhD either. But would I be *more likely* to listen to a dozen cognitive neuroscience PhDs over a dozen economists, on the subject of cognitive neuroscience? Yes, I'm more likely. Would I just swallow what those PhDs say? No, I would think on their responses ("get a second opinion"), compare, contrast, and see what other research has been done-- or do my own research.
Great post Jenna.  It doesn't get much more wacky, scientifically, than objectivists pontificating from their armchairs.  Remember, the grand puba herself, thought cancer was the result of faulty premises.  And she could have quoted logic chapter and verse to prove this assertion to you.


Post 27

Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 9:19pmSanction this postReply
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, the grand puba herself, thought cancer was the result of faulty premises
I have a hard time understanding how someone so rational could hold such a clearly irrational position.  I have never heard this except for a few references like this on forums, where does this come from?  Is she on record with this?

Michael F Dickey


Post 28

Friday, March 17, 2006 - 7:36amSanction this postReply
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Context, context, context - that was back in the days when not much was known about cancer and one hypothesis was almost as good as another.....  those of today seem to have little grasping just how much - in some areas - there was a dearth of knowledge on things just a half century ago....

Post 29

Friday, March 17, 2006 - 9:01amSanction this postReply
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Michael F Dickey, Meme. There you go. Thoughts, ideas, etc, information, is a form of life. The whole of Reality is a form of life. Everything that exists is life. Which parts do you want to look at? Its life. All parts of Reality meet the definition "performs self generating self sustaining action"... its just a difference in degree of performance and ability. Thought cancer is the spread of ideas that kill hundreds of thousands of people, where other life affirming thoughts do not battle and keep the ideas under control. Now, I'm talking about ideas that reproduce through communication and interaction between life forms. Anyway, I'm crazy, right? So what's the use of reading what I say? Whats the use of determining whether the relationships I communicate to you are consistent with Reality or not?

Post 30

Friday, March 17, 2006 - 9:05amSanction this postReply
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Jesus... mother of holy... how much control does Google have over what people think? Hmmm... now governments are trying to get into the search engine business. Interesting.

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Post 31

Friday, March 17, 2006 - 10:26amSanction this postReply
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Michael Dickey,

About your question on Rand's belief about cancer and premises, in The Passion of Ayn Rand (p. 383) by Barbara Branden, in discussing Rand's recovery from the lung cancer operation, there is the following quote:
From time to time in the next months, she would raise, disturbed, the question of how she could have contracted cancer; she tended to think that cancer, as well as many other illnesses, was the result of what she termed "bad premises - that is, of philosophical-psychological errors and evasions carried to their final dead end in the form of physical destruction. How could she have a malignancy, when she had no bad premises?
Although no direct source is given, over 200 people were interviewed for this biography (with tapes and/or signed statements made), including Dr. Murray Dworetzky (her family physician) and Joan and Allen Blumenthal, who helped take care of her during this time. So they were probably the sources for that statemente. I imagine that others heard Rand say this over the years.

Michael


Post 32

Friday, March 17, 2006 - 10:43amSanction this postReply
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"Remember, the grand puba herself, thought cancer was the result of faulty premises."

Jody - What is your source for this?

Post 33

Friday, March 17, 2006 - 1:18pmSanction this postReply
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Robert Malcolm said:

 

those of today seem to have little grasping just how much - in some areas - there was a dearth of knowledge on things just a half century ago

 

I think I have a pretty good grasp of the relative levels of knowledge on cancer, and it still surprises me.  As far back as 1911 a virus was identified that caused cancer in chickens.  Many viral infections in humans were clearly linked to cancer, even though the mechanisms of how the viruses caused cancer was unknown even in the 19th century.  In the early 1900’s radiation was successfully being used to treat some cancers.  Some googling says she was diagnosed in 1974, by 1974 tremendous strides in cancer had already been made, including the use of radiation, chemo therapy, and bone marrow transplants.  Nixon started the ‘War on Cancer’ in 1971.  We knew enough to know that an idea alone could not cause cancer.

 

Dean re: post 29, I have a hard time reading your posts now Dean, whats going on?  Were you high or something?  I am pretty familiar with the concept of Memes and I don’t think a meme will actually cause cancer (though of course it might not steer you away from things or behavior that could)

 

Michael Stuart Kelly said

 

Michael Dickey,

About your question on Rand's belief about cancer and premises, in The Passion of Ayn Rand (p. 383) by Barbara Branden, in discussing Rand's recovery from the lung cancer operation, there is the following quote:

From time to time in the next months, she would raise, disturbed, the question of how she could have contracted cancer; she tended to think that cancer, as well as many other illnesses, was the result of what she termed "bad premises - that is, of philosophical-psychological errors and evasions carried to their final dead end in the form of physical destruction. How could she have a malignancy, when she had no bad premises?

 

As I said, I am very surprised that Rand would think cancer would come from ‘bad premises’ but your posts clarifies things some.  It seems like that statement is a bit disengenous.  It is clear that ones attitude can play a role in their health, and make them more or less susceptible to disease, but the control is not certain.  Wouldn’t thinking such a thing on her part suggest that with no bad ideas one would live indefinitely?  The logical conclusions seem irrational but the overal concept, that attitude and convictions play a role in health (though a limited one) is very true.  Clearly diseases can have origins removed from your fundamental convictions, children who develop terminal leukemia don’t even have a chance to develop bad premises. And of course Rand did get cancer because of a bad premise, that premise being that smoking was not harmful. 

Michael F Dickey


Post 34

Friday, March 17, 2006 - 1:30pmSanction this postReply
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Jenna-

I like your clarification, it's certainly the right attitude especially for science. A layman recognizing a doctor or contractor as a fraud would be valid only based on real experience with them, not an arbitrary dismissal based on their name in a phonebook. It can be a slippery slope, and I'll risk being accused of dismissing people out-of-hand in certain cases when so many others claiming the same thing were wrong before - ESP, PK, or most commonly, religious adherents who claim you can't really be an atheist since you haven't studied their religion.

In science not dismissing people out of hand means giving even n-rays and cold fusion a fair hearing - lest we dismiss ideas and overlook the next quantum mechnanics or continental drift. Positive in general, and at least in the physical sciences I think scientists are usually pretty good about this. Reverence for Newton's work made it an uphill battle for those treating light as waves, Einstein's resistance may have delayed some acceptance of QM, and undoubtedly some other cases - but in general I don't think right ideas get ignored for long.

Perhaps it is not that way in life or social sciences though? One of the most simultaneously entertaining+frustrating things I remember from psychology classes was cognitive psych professors mocking and dismissing out-of-hand anything done by behaviorists - and behaviorists acting exactly the same way in reverse. I'm not familiar with neuroscience - is the field particularly prone to inside factionalism or outside attack?

Zealots dismissing lighting-as-electricity, germ theory or evolution automatically due to their religion might be another ballgame. Changing their views to not dismiss sound science could be possible, but I'm not sure it would be appreciably easier than changing their underlying religious ideas.


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Post 35

Friday, March 17, 2006 - 1:30pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

Rand also held that ALL emotions can be programmed (in other words, controlled in some manner) by conscious thinking. Some emotions can be programmed in her manner, but not all.

Assigning reason philosophical supremacy for human beings to understand and deal with the world is Rand's greatest legacy for mankind. And it is a grateful mankind that is starting to arise and honor her.

The underside is that she assigned reason to areas (like the subconscious, or in causing/preventing cancer) where it does not work, at least not in the manner she postulated.

Michael


Post 36

Friday, March 17, 2006 - 3:22pmSanction this postReply
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Perhaps it is not that way in life or social sciences though? One of the most simultaneously entertaining+frustrating things I remember from psychology classes was cognitive psych professors mocking and dismissing out-of-hand anything done by behaviorists - and behaviorists acting exactly the same way in reverse. I'm not familiar with neuroscience - is the field particularly prone to inside factionalism or outside attack?


This is an example of divisiveness. I'm perhaps different than some other neuroscientists in that I know that a lot of (if not all) fields has relevance to my work -- from art to psychology to pop culture-- because they are related to human brains. What is truly needed in such cases of scientists vs. scientists is integration: recognizing that behavior is interrelated with the brain/mind. These people (the psychologists and the neuroscientists) are pursuing a dichotomy to a dead end; there is the greater dichotomy of humanities vs. sciences that I hope-- as my life's dream-- to help mend. A way of life is what one *chooses* if one is (more or less) within the "normative". (I've leaving out the people who can't choose not to be abnormal here). But I would plead anyone to know that there are folks out there who don't divide, who try to integrate-- like two neuroscientists I know, who are both into psychological neuroscience. Isn't that a nice integration?

Also, in sciences it's damn hard not to get challenged at every turn by your peers. The first litany a scientist would say to another is: "How are you going to test that? Where's your evidence? What about this evidence? What makes you so sure? What about this (my) research? What other stuff have you done? (So what if you have a PhD, I have one too!)" Even Stephen Jay Gould (one of my 'heroes') had his trail of peer-reviewers (scientific critics)!

Post 37

Friday, March 17, 2006 - 4:28pmSanction this postReply
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Dean re: post 29, I have a hard time reading your posts now Dean, whats going on? Were you high or something? I am pretty familiar with the concept of Memes and I don’t think a meme will actually cause cancer (though of course it might not steer you away from things or behavior that could)
Here, I'll make my point very clear:
Cancer: One the cells in a person's body becomes incapable of controlling its reproduction rate, and then in many cases kills the body.
Meme Cancer: One of the ideas a person comes up with begins being communicated from person to person very rapidly in a society, and the people who accept the idea as true end up dying sooner because the decisions they make based on the idea are not good for their life-- it ends up killing a group of humans that had accepted the idea. For example: Jihad Islam. Its in the Koran, spread by the Koran, some people accept it, go killing infidels, and then someone else kills them to stop them.

So I don't mean that some Memes cause cancer. What I mean is that the relationship between cancer and a single human body is very similar to the relationship between a man's idea and a group of men.

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Post 38

Friday, March 17, 2006 - 4:29pmSanction this postReply
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It can be a slippery slope, and I'll risk being accused of dismissing people out-of-hand in certain cases when so many others claiming the same thing were wrong before - ESP, PK, or most commonly, religious adherents who claim you can't really be an atheist since you haven't studied their religion.


I've done that too. Sometimes, badly. And with horrid results. I know that I will try not to, but not that I will *never* do it again. I just have to know myself better and try to know what kinds of reaction that I have to things. I call that self-knowledge... maybe others call it something different. For me, self-knowledge allows me to self-rule.

Adherents & atheism: It's true that one can only study so much. I'm not pleading for omniscience. I've had the same questions asked of me about atheism; however, I've had a rather unfortunate education in theology, so I can say that I *did* study the Bible extensively [w/in the Torah]-- I've read 90% of it, and about 25% of it more than once. Shortest verse in the Bible? John 11:35, "Jesus wept". ;) I've also read a textbook on Buddhism, the Mahabharata [w/in it the Bhagavad Gita], the Tibetan book of the Dead, the Tao Te Ching, and grew up with Chinese god/goddess stories. I don't have a degree or even a major in comparative religion, but I feel comfortable knowing that I at least made an honest effort to know. Once you read enough of this stuff, you can notice a trend. Also, I'm somewhat internet savvy and I realize how powerful a tool it is to find information. The Koran and the Book of Mormon is next on my list.

As for ESP, etc.-- this is what I do: I look at evidence (like on theism), on both sides of the issue. It means reading about it on pseudoscience sites, reading peer-reviewed research articles, testing, and making as wise a judgement I can based on what I've found. This particular subject may use up only an hour or so b/c of my background; for non-scientists there are articles, books, Google Scholar, Skeptic Magazine, etc. Ultimately one must make up their own mind, no one else can choose for you, or me. Good judgement isn't *always* a snap judgement (well, ESP to me is more 'snap' than other subjects-- by dint of my education).

Reverence for Newton's work made it an uphill battle for those treating light as waves, Einstein's resistance may have delayed some acceptance of QM, and undoubtedly some other cases - but in general I don't think right ideas get ignored for long.


Newton's stuff is the first thing taught in general physics (I know this b/c I took physics last year). I think Einstein was a little 'stuck' in Newtonian mechanics (I wrote an essay summarizing his theories of relativity), but again, I'm not a physicist. Also, my philosophy of physics prof wasn't afraid to say "Einstein was wrong." and to show us why. I've had more than one physicist make a difference to me about microscopic vs. macro. It's size context. Accpetance of QM is still hard, given that it's relatively new, & currently counterintuitive, compared to Newton's Laws. But ultimately, if it hits both truth and evidence, it'll let us know by the results:

Much of modern technology operates at a scale where quantum effects are significant. Examples include the laser, the transistor, the electron microscope, and magnetic resonance imaging. The study of semiconductors led to the invention of the diode and the transistor, which are indispensable for modern electronics. Wikipedia: quantum mechanics


I can't say no to QM due to the relevance it has to MRI machinations-- what I will be using to do research on brains:

Only one in a million nuclei align themselves with the magnetic field. Yet, the vast quantity of nuclei in a small volume sum to produce a detectable change in field. Most basic explanations of NMR and MRI will say that the nuclei align parallel or anti-parallel with the static magnetic field; however, because of quantum mechanical reasons beyond the scope of this article, the nuclei are actually set off at an angle from the direction of the static magnetic field. Wikipedia: MRI technique


Rand also held that ALL emotions can be programmed (in other words, controlled in some manner) by conscious thinking.


If Rand said this, then it's an inaccurate statement-- emotions *can* be consciously directed to some extent in everyone, *but* with constraints dependent on brain physiology, neurotransmitter relevance, brain blood flow, neural networking, brain development, genetics, nutrition, pathology (if any), and/or childhood/adulthood psychological/psychiatric influence.

The underside is that she assigned reason to areas (like the subconscious, or in causing/preventing cancer) where it does not work, at least not in the manner she postulated.


I put Rand in context of what she knew and during what time period she lived. She was no cognitive neuroscientist, and it shows, even to a student of cog. neurosci.

But she did ground philosophy in a lot of fundamental levels that allow for rationality, individualism, growth, and progress; the trick is is to understand her on a "life" level rather than just at a "words" level.

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Post 39

Friday, March 17, 2006 - 5:40pmSanction this postReply
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John-
The source is PAR.  And there are other sources, such as the Blumenthals, who discuss her irrational defense of smoking, and denial that it can lead to cancer.


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