RoR: Forum

""what is there to stop a person from achieving your heroic best?"

Perhaps they heeded to the advice of Master Newberry that one doesn't have to overcome adversary or experience pain to achieve a heroic deed? "

HA!!

Don't expect Hong to not catch every nuance!

Hong,

Thanks, Happy Chinese New Year to you too!

Mike E.

Post 21

Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 3:18pm

I also empathetically but whole-heartedly disagree with this:

�If an artist does not enjoy all the trial and errors, and mistakes that might even cost months of labor�I would simply think that art is not for them.�

Nobody, no artist, scientist, or any creator would enjoy �all the trial and errors, and mistakes that might even cost months of labor�, or even years of labors. Oh, don�t I know it. It is the progress, and especially the end results when you finally got it, that you truly enjoy. You must have had that blissful moment(s) when in the end everything come together; that you could be in cloud nine for days and everything you had done before has been worth it. You then tend to forget all those painful, or even excruciating and agonizing moments that you�ve gone through in order to get there.

For anybody to achieve anything extraordinary, they have to have the discipline, and have to do something they don�t like. Call it whatever you want, hard working, great exertion, pain in the neck, or suffering. But I�ve never seen a single person who does ONLY the things that he liked or enjoyed, and really achieved anything.

Heroes are those who unwaveringly hold on to their vision, who are wise enough to know what it takes to realize their vision, who are courageous enough to rise to the challenges, and are resolved and strong enough to carry it through.

There is actually something I detected in general American culture that people always like to sugarcoat everything. Why you guys are so afraid of words such as �suffering� or �pain�. If you think that any real life hero has not �suffered�, then you don�t know them well enough. And that'll always be my advice to young people.

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 1/29, 5:44am)

Post 22

Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 6:36pm

Oh, one more thing about what Michael wrote here,
"If an artist does not enjoy all the trial and errors, and mistakes that might even cost months of labor�I would simply think that art is not for them."

If this sort of "enjoyment" is what you meant when you talked about exaltation and joy, then, indeed, you have my deepest sympathy

Post 23

Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 6:40pm

"If an artist does not enjoy all the trial and errors, and mistakes that might even cost months of labor�I would simply think that art is not for them."

Sounds more like someone doing art without thinking, like driving blindly without knowing where or how to get wherever...

Post 24

Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 7:17pm

I heard someone say once that everyone has at least 1000 bad drawings in them until they get to the good ones. I think most people around 250, then again at 540 and so forth probably do get a little discouraged when the improvements don't seem visible. If you're that close to your work you never seem to get any better and that's pretty depressing at times. And it should be. Honestly, who wants to do horrible work?

If the work means anything to you, you get past that and go on to 541 and just keep feeding information in and getting your hands under control until it does get better.

---Landon

Post 25

Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 7:38pm

Hi Mike E.,
Thanks for the well wishes. For many years, this is the first time that the Chinese New Year's Day (tomorrow) falls on a weekend. Just had dinner with a family of friends. I think this year is the year of dog....

Post 26

Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 9:37pm

Wow, my first argument with Hong! She wrote:
Nobody, no artist, scientist, or any creator would enjoy "all the trial and errors, and mistakes that might even cost months of labor", or even years of labors. Oh, don�t I know it. It is the progress, and especially the end results when you finally got it, that you truly enjoy. You must have had that blissful moment(s) when in the end everything come together; that you could be in cloud nine for days and everything you had done before has been worth it. You then tend to forget all those painful, or even excruciating and agonizing moments that you�ve gone through in order to get there.

Hahaha, perhaps I am a freak. I am happy to be a lone freak. Anyone who pushes the envelope, tries things out, takes calculated risks...and finds out whether it works or not...I think that is profoundly fun even if it doesn�t work for the painting�perhaps we are talking about two different things. My aim and standard is the resolution of the work�but I love the process on a moment by moment basis.

Post 27

Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 9:58pm

JJ,

I have been finding difficulty communicating a creative hero, as you and I apparently see it. Do you think the word "hero" brings with it the connotation of soldier or defender?

Anyway I liked your article. And it got me thinking about it.

I liked George defending defenders and firemen, yep without the police and army there would be no "utopia" to live in! And without producers there would be little to protect.

And I love that Hong has moments of being on cloud nine with successful completed projects!

Michael

Post 28

Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 10:02pm

Robert: "Sounds more like someone doing art without thinking, like driving blindly without knowing where or how to get wherever..."

Exactly like an abstract expressionist, oh...but you meant me...right.

Post 29

Saturday, January 28, 2006 - 10:17pm

Michael N: �perhaps we are talking about two different things.

There's no "perhaps" about it, you two are not talking about the same thing.

George

Post 30

Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 12:48am

Michael,

Thanks. I'm glad that the point of my article resonates with you. I'm actually surprised that so many people are having difficulty with it considering that I spent the whole article discussing the differences between a traditional hero and an Objectivist hero.

In the conventional altruistic sense, heroism is evaluated based on hardship. The world in turn needs to be comprised of conflicts and emergency situations for heroic opportunities. The possibility of heroism diminishes as the world becomes a better place, which is plain ridiculous. An Objectivist hero does not celebrate cost, and does not thrive on misery. He is goal-oriented, purpose-driven and earns his worth. He takes on projects because he sees the net benefit. He does not work against himself by working toward a world where his abilities are increasingly obsolete. You've made these points very well in your posts but they couldn't get across for some reason.

In the conventional sense, heroic qualities like courage and integrity are tested in adverse situations. Those situations allow the qualities to shine, but they are not what created the heroic qualities. As Objectivists, we should be able to recognize heroic qualities outside the context of a conflicted world. We value heroic qualities because they benefit our lives in general.

JJ

Post 31

Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 2:48am

JJ,

"In the conventional sense, heroic qualities like courage and integrity are tested in adverse situations. Those situations allow the qualities to shine, but they are not what created the heroic qualities. As Objectivists, we should be able to recognize heroic qualities outside the context of a conflicted world. We value heroic qualities because they benefit our lives in general.
"

What I recognize as heroic is where a person retains the ability to act in situations out of the ordinary. It is not an accident that this happens with only a select few people because it is a result of foresight. There will always be unexpected occurrences and "conflicts" in life, this is part of reality, even in a thoroughly "objectivist" world. These unexpected events are anticipated by a small minority of people. They already know how they will react because they have planned for it. When they are acting in these situations I believe they are in a state of intense focus. Not in it for "kicks". This is not to say that the actions that people take under ordinary circumstances are not important. Virtually all creative and productive enterprises take place in normal situations. But to act when everyone else is frozen, not having anticipated an unexpected situation, that is heroic.

"Fail to prepare, prepare to fail".
-Al Dacascos

Here is the connection between our two seemingly different definitions of hero. Heroism is the discipline to have foresight, to prepare, to plan to succeed regardless of circumstance.

Note: Edited to correct some sleep induced grammatical errors.

(Edited by Mike Erickson
on 1/29, 10:36am)

Post 32

Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 3:24am

I named no names, but described what the statement implied...... but if the shoe fits ------

Post 33

Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 7:09am

"...I think that is profoundly fun even if it doesn�t work for the painting..."

Oh, come on, Michael, don't tell me that it was profoundly fun when you had to slash that big canvas of yours after years of working on it!

Post 34

Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 8:08am

Hong: Oh, come on, Michael, don't tell me that it was profoundly fun when you had to slash that big canvas of yours after years of working on it!

Yes, it was terrible sad for me, to have not something work, and I tried everything to find the key for that particular work. I worked on that over 7 years along with 3 other major paintings. One part of me is filled with tremendous pride that I exhausted every avenue, gave it my all, and destroyed it when I knew it I couldn�t make it work. One part terribly sad.

But Hong, that will never change how much joy and fun I had painting it. I found out about new ways of doing something, I made one gigantic mistake that I will never make again, I learned that. There is no way, no way I could work on anything for much longer than a few days if I am not enjoying doing the work. I had the same with this painting.

I have gotten tremendous value from all my relationships..., hang on, making an analogy here, one of the relationships ended with my partner feeling that their years spent with me had be a waste, because the relationship ended. I have never felt that kind of feeling for love or for art.

Michael

Post 35

Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 8:17am

Robert: I named no names, but described what the statement implied...... but if the shoe fits ------

I don't mind you naming names, in fact, I prefer it. And none of this wishy-washy innuendo stuff. Go for it man.

Post 36

Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 2:05pm

It would be difficult for me to reconcile the person who gave such a parallel-to-my-own-thinking lecture in the summer of 2001 TOC seminar week with one who does not think before putting anything to canvas - even tho it seems to appear at times such is the case, at least in comments... since appearance can be deceiving, it is a quest to understanding the seemingly discrepancy, not an attempt at denegrating anyone.

Post 37

Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 3:23pm

Ok, Robert. Thanks for the compliment about my lecture.

You mention reconciling discrepancies in your understanding of what I post, lecture, and, I assume, my work.

Perhaps this might help you a bit. I stand my every millimeter of paint on my canvases; I lecture ok, but I am sincere, same could be said of my articles; but my posts are a mixture of being wicked, having fun, being frank when I feel like it, hopefully some might say I have one or two insights�and I know its in the public domain�but if I were you I wouldn�t trust my posts to be the definitive word�I liken posts to having wine and dinner with friends. In that context I want to see their hair down, to see their enjoyment in life come out.

You wrote: "...who does not think before putting anything to canvas..."

Damn, I am no Platonist!

Thinking is all well and good but I don�t have an exact answer in my head 2,500 moves down the road in a painting.

Michael

Post 38

Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 4:43pm

JJ: What about Objectivist heroes? They are normal people who made themselves exceptional. Their heroic acts are possible due to years of purposeful hardwork and continuous self-improvement, independent of circumstances
JJ, can an ex pimp or criminal become an objectivist hero? Can a prostitute become an heroine? What Rand would answer to such question?
Ciro.

Post 39

Sunday, January 29, 2006 - 4:43pm