RoR: Forum

Ciro asked:

can an ex pimp or criminal become an objectivist hero?

Can they? Yes. But not by pretending or hiding what they did in the past, or by expecting everyone to forget what they did.

Can a prostitute become an heroine?

See above.

What Rand would answer to such question?

What would Ciro say? What would Ethan say? What is your point?

Ethan

Post 41

Monday, January 30, 2006 - 12:27pm

I got it! I am on the wrong thread. I will tirelessly pursue sensual perfection but I have never been into pain or suffering�freak that I am, even if I am at my limit lifting weights�there is a kind of exalted pleasure there�right, right there at the very limit this side of actually doing damage.

So yes, I have to be on the wrong thread. I was thinking like JJ, that pushing the boundaries of a creative enterprise is something pleasurable.

So I have got it all wrong, thinking that heroism had something to do with creating for the pleasure of creating, albeit on a very high level of functioning. Silly me.

Its objectivist-valued-rationally-enlightened hedonism! That is the thread for me!

Now the trick is to find anyone who is willing join me and forgo the staid view of the tragic but successful hero...for the successful enlightened hero! Where pain is a thing of the past and joy and accomplishment is the neo-objectivist standard of nobility.

Michael

Post 42

Monday, January 30, 2006 - 5:25pm

Best of luck, Michael!

Post 43

Monday, January 30, 2006 - 6:21pm

hahahaha, it won't have anything to do with luck! Hong, that is how we earn things in life, now do you think rising to the challenge is adversarial?

Post 44

Monday, January 30, 2006 - 8:17pm

Yes. Otherwise it would not be called a challenge, is it?

Obviously we have a very different view on this. Or perhaps I should say we have different approaches. I am not enlightening at all. Actually I am the opposite: I am usually very grim. I'd tell youngsters how hard it is to do science, how mind-numbingly boring are those menial experiments that they have to repeat over and over again, and how frustrated they will often get when things don't work out, and that they will have no life, no family, no friends except people they know from the lab, and absolutely no fun at all for 99% of the time. My hope is that I'd scare off most people who want to be in it for the wrong reason. If some of them understand what I mean and still want to do it, their chance of making it in the end will be much better. I am extremely impatient dealing with students who are not prepared at all.

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 1/31, 7:53am)

Post 45

Monday, January 30, 2006 - 8:30pm

I don't know Hong, we're pretty damn close...and look at you. You have a life, family, and friends!!!

My attitude towards young artists is if their attitude is not, "give me art or give me death(!)" they wont make it as an artist. Hahahahah, close no?

Task masters! Thats what we are. Smack, smack, smack!

(Edited by Newberry on 1/30, 8:31pm)

Post 46

Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 2:28am

Just wanted to say that I think this is a great article, and a hugely important topic. I'll be discussing ideas related to this in my speech at TOC's summer seminar this year.

For now, I want to say that I emphatically agree with JJ and Newberry.

I don't want to get bogged down in a debate, especially since I don't want to steal my own thunder, but here's some questions to ponder:

Which is the ethics that upholds successful living as the moral idea? Which is the ethics that measures moral worth by the improvement in one's life?

Which is the ethics that focuses on hardship and suffering? Which is the ethics that measures moral worth by how much pain has been endured?

And then, which of the visions of heroism offered in this thread correspond to each of these ethical systems? Are there premises that need to be checked?

Post 47

Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 8:08am

This isn't really a response to Hong's post, but her post reminded me of something. Richard Feynman's essay/speech "What Is Science?" which I read in "The Pleasure of Finding Things Out" is magnificent. He tells how his father, who was a salesman, said from the time Feynman was in the womb that he would be a scientist and then systematically cultivated his interest in the world so that there was no other calling for him. Feynman relates how he looked into a first grade science book and it showed several pictures of a dog, a toy, and a motorcycle (or something like that) and asked what makes it move? The intended response is "energy" and he discusses the problems of relating science to children in this way. He contrasts it with the way his father would have taught him, which is observation, taking things apart, figuring them out. I think we *are* teaching children that science, math, the arts are hard, in the way it is being presented to them.

Post 48

Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 8:25am

Now for more of a response. I do think that extraordinary achievements require the setting of goals, require ambition, and require the discipline to work toward those goals and ambitions. However, I don't agree that it necesssarily requires "doing stuff you don't like." Unless you are counting everyday minutia like getting out of bed when you could easily sleep a couple more hours, getting a parking space far away from your destination and having to walk through the rain, etc. As far as my work, I don't think any of it has been unpleasant. I loved every moment of my initial preparation, 7 years of university seemed to end in no time. I loved the research I was doing. I love teaching. I love writing. There was no point where I felt I had to persevere through something I hated to reach my ultimate goals...I have stayed relatively "in the present" throughout my journey and have enjoyed what I was doing at the time, not only considering them a means to an end. This is not to say that I have never been tired, never thought a task tedious, but I wouldn't characterise that as the way I felt about my work as a whole at any time.

Post 49

Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 9:42am

Hi Ashley,
What you described sounds simply super. However, do you consider yourself a hero or heroic?

Post 50

Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 9:51am

Michael kindly offered:
"...and look at you. You have a life, family, and friends!!! "

Most importantly I have a understanding and supporting husband (who is from the lab, by the way). And I am not a hero.

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 1/31, 10:04am)

Post 51

Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 12:15pm

Modesty is not a virtue, Hong - nor is boastfulness its alternative...;-)

Post 52

Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 12:18pm

"Modesty is not a virtue, Hong"

Being realistic and objective is.

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 1/31, 12:24pm)

Post 53

Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 4:05pm

Just a thought.

It is not actually going through hardships that defines a hero. Anybody can suffer. A hero is a person who has a glorious vision that he transforms into reality. His willingness to go through hardships if necessary for his vision to become real is one thing that makes him a hero, but that doesn't mean that he has to suffer. Since when does Objectivism worship suffering?

I find having a glorious vision has nothing at all to do with hardship on a fundamental level. Hardship is merely a price you have to pay to do wonderful, productive things in life, but not always.

Producers are heroes. And so are others who transform the world according to the ideals they hold. Sometimes they fight. Sometimes they suffer. Sometimes they don't. They're all still heroes.

Michael
(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 1/31, 7:55pm)

Post 54

Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 7:01pm

>What you described sounds simply super. However, do you consider yourself a hero or heroic?

I consider myself heroic, yes. But right now only a small group of people I have affected directly believe that I am a hero. At some point, I think I will be recognized as a hero by a more widespread audience, and then I am sure I will be asked if it was a painful struggle. And I will think back to this time in my life and say no.

Post 55

Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 8:16pm

Hey Ashley,

Can I get you to tout your own horn? I have always known you to vivacious, mentally wicked, supportive (in actions!), and refreshing open about your inner world. Please talk a little about what a hero means to you and, if you like, about how you have been true to that.

Michael

Post 56

Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 2:31am

JJ,

I'm always interested in this topic and so thanks for the article. It's a difficult concept.

The characters in Victor Hugo's novels resonate for me as heroes. They demonstrate the power of volition. Their naked souls hang in the balance of the choices they make. Rand is right to call Hugo's characters "giants". That's the perfect word.

Some of us look for and find that quality in our own neighborhoods. No one would say, "I embrace the awesome power of volition with every breath I take," but rather they would demonstrate that through their actions. And we have to observe them over a period of years to understand where they're coming from (and to confirm that they are committed to living this way).

At this point I'm not willing to claim anything like a clear definition of what a hero is. But I do notice them from time to time. They tend to be obsessed (in love with) with their work. The tend to be considered a bit strange by the others in the neighborhood. They tend to be consistently willing to guide others who appear genuinely interested in learning. And they tend to inspire a lot of people.

Heroism might be a simple matter of accepting that we are in control of our own lives. To never stray from that responsibility and to never doubt that we are capable of doing it well.

(Edited by Lance Moore on 2/01, 3:07am)

Post 57

Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 4:20am

Hi Michael:

I will. I am off to school just now but the next time I sit down here I will.

Ash

Post 58

Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 8:15am

I think there is a hero for every cause. The meaning of hero is not a universal meaning.
A hero is a person who lives his life just and behind the ethical believes of a society.
A Hero in America for instance, could easy be considered a scoundrel in Africa.
Heroes are people who fight for causes that will push humanity forward.
When humans will reach perfection , heroism will chase to exist.
CD

Post 59

Wednesday, February 1, 2006 - 8:59am