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Post 80

Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 12:49pmSanction this postReply
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Well, Brant, we're just going to have to disagree.

I had no intention to smuggle anything anywhere.

The cognitive abstraction in my "Turning" article was called "act" and it had nothing to do with sanctioning self-sacrifice as an ideal, nor appeasement, nor any other form of altruism. I think I stated that pretty explicitly too. Did you miss it?

If you can show me any of the quotes I asked for from Casey and Linz from my own writings, I will gladly withdraw any statement whatsoever that says that Rand endorsed altruism, etc.

My present article is NOT a form of rationalization of the previous one. It is a further clarification in order to state my intentions (admittedly in development) and try to get across that the mishmash grandstand Linz made of it has nothing in common with what I was getting at.

I essentially wrote an article against knee-jerks - and boy did knees jerk! I was trying to get at why knees jerk and this whole affair has become one giant example of my thesis. Frankly, I couldn't have done it better myself.

One thing has become apparent, though. This is not the place to discuss ideas like what I wrote about. It is a place to bicker about them. Most of the people who have written me about this have not been convinced by my detractors. Let me repeat that. THEY HAVE NOT BEEN CONVINCED BY REASON. The noise level has been so high that they merely don't want the hassle. Sone completely agree with me and others partially so. But all agree on one thing: what has been represented by my detractors has nothing at all to do with what I wrote.

So if the purpose with all this acrimony is to convince, it has been woefully lacking in many cases (and I have the e-mails to prove it).

My detractors seem to have great difficulty in addressing my ideas without completely falsifying them - or simply ignoring them and saying I said other stuff. How on earth bickering like that on an Internet forum is going to change anything anywhere is beyond me.

I don't mind being wrong when I am (see the correction Rick Pasotto made), but I don't like it when people engage in mischaracterization of my ideas - for whatever motive.

Michael

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 11/13, 1:05pm)


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Post 81

Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 12:52pmSanction this postReply
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Lance,

I will give it to you in four words:

Fanatics blank out reality.

The rest is technical.

Michael


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Post 82

Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 1:28pmSanction this postReply
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Michael, Turning is a way to get inside of Objectivism and rot it. You are an enemy of Objectivism; the worst kind. I have focused and particular disagreements with James Valliant and Casey Fahy, but they are incredibly clean compared to what you are doing here, which you continue to deny. You are sticking knives into Objectivism while kissing it on the lips. I am disgusted, completely and unalterably disgusted. If I owned SOLO I'd kick you out. I'd rather have William Buckley posting here. What is a newbie to think about an article like Turning? It's much worse than anything the Brandens are alleged to have done to the reputation of Ayn Rand by the ARI crowd save the audience is much smaller. Most enemies of Objectivism come at it head on or stupidly, they don't have the brains and knowledge to do what you have done and continue to do. You can prove me wrong by repudiating Turning and starting over with your original, innocent intent, if that's what it was. Fat chance.

--Brant


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Post 83

Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 1:40pmSanction this postReply
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Jeepers.  Why is it so hard for people to understand Michael's perspective here?  The cheek turning article never endorsed altruism, appeasement or anything of the sort.  He was simply attempting to illustrate how completely different values may appear the same on the surface.  So much got read into it that was not there.

The smoke-free comment was merely pointing out that the author had not even acknowledged the other side's perspective at all.  You cannot engage in a rational argument without trying to hear what the other guy's issues are.  To ignore the other side is an example of blank-out. 

Acknowledgement is not the same as endorsement. 

Michael is not trying to sneak some crazy Bible thumping agenda into Solo.   He has been an Objectivist for over 35 years and he is certainly not the enemy.  Stop this crap of trying to make him into a strawman.  Has KASS simply turned into an acronym for Kicking Ass of Someone Similar?  Sad indeed.

Kat




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Post 84

Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 2:35pmSanction this postReply
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This thread just keeps getting stranger and stranger; it's like a Twilight Zone episode for philosophy students.  Michael may not be the most succinct writer on the planet, but he speaks english, does the whole say what ya mean, mean what ya say thing.  The very notion of the guy "smuggling" altruism into Oism is contextually absurd, if not arbitrary--the context being Michael Stuart Kelly, the man, the atheist, the Ayn Rand afficionado of 35 years and counting, the newly promoted SOLO Psychology Leader and a guy who really never said all those things he claims he never said!  What, are we to believe that he's some kind of sleeper cell for the International Christian Conspiracy newly activated to--to what, exactly?  I'm asking.

I was thinking of posting after Linz attached that specious subtitle, but when Michael accepted the decision, rushing to his defense lost its urgency.  Now, a week later, the anti-MSK crowd continues to slander his article.  But it all started with Linz's invidious labelling of Michael's article, "A Personal View."  It still pisses me off to see Linz “handling” MSK like a newbie (doesn't bode well for us actual newbies around here).  First he blithely published the ARI woman’s underhanded personal swipe against Michael in the Daily Linz, and now he disingenuously marginalizes Michael’s contribution to this board. 

 

Does anyone, anyone at all, see Linz’s day late damage-control of MSK’s article odd after his near total non-interference with the Reed/Pastema shit storm, for example?  I realize this is an article and that embarrassing mess was just a flame war, but singling out Michael for what amounts to public humiliation seems a bit, well, “personal.” 

 

“A Personal View?”  This website is dedicated to perhaps the most individualistic philosophy the world has ever seen--so at first glance, “a personal view” is simply redundant--whose else’s would it be?  So, what distinction is Linz's subtitle really making?  If something is labeled distinctly personal it cannot be said to be objective, can it?   There's a word around here for the distinctly personal: it begins with an “S.” 

 

Ah, a subjective view then.  In that context, calling Michael's article “personal” is just a weasely way of saying “wrong.”  But the title “Understanding Is and Ought - the Wrong View” doesn’t sound nearly so fair-minded, does it (even though Michael’s ideas would still be “intact” in the body of the article)?  It’s still not shutting Michael up, just changing the context; marginalizing his view into irrelevancy.  

 

What is the title of a piece, if not the most immediate context the reader has?  

 

Linz creates a context where Michael’s article is to be dismissed as non-objective, or simply, meaningless; not rational enough, i.e.: irrational.  Why not come right out and rename the article “Understanding Is and Ought - a Subjectivist View?”

 

Seriously, do individuals need Linz’s pernicious subtitle, or can we think for ourselves?  Isn’t the very foundation of Objectivism that rationality is available to us all?  Shouldn’t we be expected to exercise rationality in evaluating any article or post we read on SOLOHQ?   

 

That Objectivism cannot be expressed with equal validity by rational minds as mildly incompatible as Linz’s and MSK’s does not bode well for winning the hearts and minds of an entire world. 

 

As to MSK’s point in both of his latest articles, it seems simple enough and engagingly expressed.  To my mind he’s in the business of rehabilitating disreputable concepts.  He manages even to bring one of the most disreputable altruist catch phrases in history to heel.  A sizable contingent on this website seems vehemently opposed to the very idea, even though Ayn Rand enacted a similar and celebrated reclamation of the word “selfish.”  To my mind, Michael’s is the most reasonable, passionately engaged, genuinely challenging and playful intellect on this forum--which is not to say that other folks don’t outstrip him in one or another category fairly regularly--some folks here would seem to have a much firmer grasp on “the party line” (thank you, Jody), and Rich is funnier (gotta admit)--but Michael’s contributions to this site consistently integrate the whole package and that to me is the essence of Sense Of Life Objectivism.  Or should be.

 

-Kevin


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Post 85

Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 3:14pmSanction this postReply
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"He manages even to bring one of the most disreputable altruist catch phrases in history to heel."

One of the most interesting things to me about what Michael is trying to do has to do with the fact that ordinary people will go to extraordinary lengths to try to integrate what they are taught growing up into a workable philosophy for living their lives. Concepts like altruism and "turn the other cheek" definitely do not mean the same thing to any two different people. Try going up to some strapping guy walking out of church on sunday and slap him across the face. After he knocks you on your ass you might say "Hey, weren't you supposed to turn the other cheek?" Taking a slap from some random asshole isn't what HE interprets as "turn the other cheek". Accepting some unavoidable setback from GOD [ie: natural disaster] may be what he means by turning the other cheek. Objectivists, if they are going to be taken seriously can't take their own "Rational" definitions of these words, call them evil and tell the people they are trying to convince that that's what THEY mean too [implying they are evil.]

So, taking a risk and trying to explore the other possible interpretations of these words [perhaps some may be perfectly rational?] certainly doesn't suggest that Michael is trying to do something BAD like rot objectivism from the inside out. Absurd suggestion. It also might attract some new people to exploring objectivism, which is what the GOAL of solo is, isn't it?

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Post 86

Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 3:14pmSanction this postReply
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"Seriously, do individuals need Linz’s pernicious subtitle, or can we think for ourselves?"

Yeah, we DO need the subtitle -- because this ain't Objectivism. And nobody, including you, should be able to sloppily call it that without being called on it. This TOC stuff sure gets completely out of hand mighty fast, doesn't it?


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Post 87

Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 3:27pmSanction this postReply
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Mike,

No doubt, people bring any manner of interpretations to organized religions. It's mysticism, after all. Whatever they want is what it ultimately is for them.

Historically, around the time the earliest portions of the New Testament were written, the Roman Civil War was taking place, and submission to Roman authority is prominent in the Romanized version of Judaism that we call Christianity. Render unto Caesar...

So in its historical context this is what the dictum meant to say -- submit.  And then there is the subjective application of modern Christians.

What it has to do with Objectivism, including taking some surface resemblance and promoting it to a conceptual status, is quite beyond me and strikes me as positively wrong.


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Post 88

Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 4:03pmSanction this postReply
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"What it has to do with Objectivism.."

Perhaps trying to make a connection with a few of the 99.9% of humans who are NOT objectivists but who are decent, hardworking, perhaps brilliant, and completely rational except for that one thing, an objective basis for their ethical sense. And perhaps move a step closer towards a saner world.

Not a world with just a few insular people who call themselves objectivists and the rest of the world evil. Ayn Rand respected the potential of ordinary people. On the first page of Atlas Shrugged, the bum who Eddie Willars tossed a dime to "..the eyes were intelligent". You don't connect with people by calling them evil. You can't even try to understand where peoples thoughts are if you first call them evil. You have to find common ground. This is what Michael is trying to make a beginning to do.

[Thanks Joe M. getting me started on another reading of Atlas Shrugged]

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Post 89

Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 4:05pmSanction this postReply
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Michael M.

My reference to MSK puttin gdown his Branden books was a play on Linz saying:

Must have read some Rand as a break from Branden
Ethan


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Post 90

Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 4:08pmSanction this postReply
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Mike,

Good people don't have to be flattered into accepting the truth.


Post 91

Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 4:09pmSanction this postReply
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Casey,

I didn't promote anything to a conceptual status. I dissected it. The conceptual status was already there. The ingrained knee-jerk conceptual status is what everybody is hollering about.

Even you say "... people bring any manner of interpretations to organized religions. It's mysticism, after all."

And then you go on to explain what it really is.

Dayaamm!

Cognitive and normative stuff flying all over the place at whim...

Michael


btw - Thank you folk for chiming in. I didn't ask for it and I don't want you to get caught in the crossfire here. Dealing with blind prejudice can get very ugly.



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Post 92

Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 4:13pmSanction this postReply
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MSK,

You are rapidly becoming the "Frappe" button on the intellectual debate machine.


Post 93

Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 4:15pmSanction this postReply
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Casey,

Er... ever come up with any of those quotes?

Saying is one thing. Proving is another...

Michael


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Post 94

Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 4:18pmSanction this postReply
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To comment on most of the comments directed at MSK and his last two articles, I'd just like to say that rarely have I seen a strawman so beaten up. It's like the wizard of Oz in here. Michael knows that I don't agree with him on everything he says, but he also knows I can disagree with him without resorting to strawmen. Perhaps these last two articles aren't as clear as they could be, and perhaps he's very stubbornly loyal to the Brandens, but please people. He's never one to back down from a debate, and that's won him some admiration, and a hell of a lot of enemies apparently. Maybe if they all chant on about and beat up the strawman view of what he's written, they'll silence him. I'm especially touched by Brant's labelling him as the worst enemy of Objectivism. I'm still laughing about that. I know that some of you have been involved in politics, and it's showing, it's really showing. If I wanted to read arguemnts like these, I'd turn on the news and listen to the same droll BS from the two idiot political parties in the states.

Ethan


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Post 95

Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 4:26pmSanction this postReply
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Ethan says,

"Perhaps these last two articles aren't as clear as they could be, and perhaps he's very stubbornly loyal to the Brandens, but please people. He's never one to back down from a debate, and that's won him some admiration, and a hell of a lot of enemies apparently. Maybe if they all chant on about and beat up the strawman view of what he's written, they'll silence him."

Well, Ethan, WHAT DID MSK WRITE?

What's the "real" version as opposed to the scarecrow?

Can we have it in a sentence or two, as I believe another has requested, as well?

What is the point, Michael? Distinguished entirely from the points you have disavowed making, what is the point that you did make? Can you sum something up in one sentence? CAN YOU? It would be an excellent exercise, not just for you, I assure you. Focus on one point that is essential to comparing Christ's dictum of turning the other cheek to Objectivism. Just one. What is it?


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Post 96

Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 4:29pmSanction this postReply
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One statement, Casey? That's easy.

I did it above.

Fanatics blank out reality.

Even Objectivist fanatics.

(oops... that was two statements...)

Michael


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Post 97

Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 4:38pmSanction this postReply
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Casey,

At this moment I'm not going to take up your time with my comments on Michael's articles. I've already made some in the other thread. I'm far more interested in hearing you answer Michael's question. As Vlad Taltos' grandfather always said "Don't get distracted by the shadows; focus on the target."

I see what's going on.

Oh yes.

Ethan


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Post 98

Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 4:46pmSanction this postReply
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Casey,

"Good people don't have to be flattered into accepting the truth."

Are you sure about this? If a person's self esteem is as important to them as I think it is flattery will work far better than insults. I wasn't implying flattery anyway, but respect for humans in general. The concepts that come so easily to you are completely foreign to most people who are not philosophy majors or academics. To do a dogbert dismissal of them [Bah! {wave of hand}] like you do does nothing to further anyone's understanding of objectivism. If you say "Why should I care?", I say, what are we here [on SOLO] for?

Here's what pisses me off: I've been an objectivist for perhaps 39 years... I CAN'T TALK TO ANYONE ABOUT WHAT I BELIEVE AND WHY I BELIEVE IT!!!!! Except for an occasional aside about reading AYN RAND I cannot get any further. People are completely turned off by words like "metaphysical" and "epistomology" and "cognitive", let alone "altruism is evil". I'm not talking about bad people but good people, people I respect. I can talk in general terms about over regulation and the benefits of capitalism and how socialism demotivates people but that's as far as I get. Not that I have much opportunity, at work you're supposed to be working. At home, my wife Karen thinks I worry excessively about things I will never be able to do anything about. So I say, let Michael have his say and try to work out whatever he's trying to work out. He may be a lot smarter than a lot of you give him credit for. I am interested in what he has to say.

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Post 99

Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 4:46pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks for proving my point: Q.E.D.

You're more interested in scoring people points than being right about reality. OK.

But that ain't Objectivism. Sorry if that makes you feel socially rejected. But Objectivism isn't about social acceptance and unconditional validation. Of course, Christianity offers that, for a price...

But Objectivism has the price of honesty. Calling me a "fanatic" is dishonest chicanery. As an exit strategy, it's deplorable.

I knew you would say that you did it "above" and would avoid capsuling your point. This is revolting, Michael.

Why revolting? Because you waste OUR time. You will not submit to the necessities of our minds in making your arguments. You will not boil down the essence of your statement for the digestion of others even while taking them on a wild goose chase of narrative ambiguity. As someone who professes to value communication, shame on you. This is garbage. 


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