[an error occurred while processing this directive]
About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Forward one pageLast Page


Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 20

Monday, June 27, 2005 - 3:25pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Michael,

This is truly the most powerfully written and powerfully personal article I've ever read on SOLO. You had me captivated from beginning to eye moistening end. Thank you so much for sharing this with us. I look forward eagerly to your future contributions.

P.S. Jennifer Iannolo, do you see what you're missing. Get back here, girl!




Sanction: 13, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 13, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 13, No Sanction: 0
Post 21

Monday, June 27, 2005 - 3:28pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Vernon writes:

>And to top it off, I have yet to be able to get my life together enough to move out of my parents' house.

and:

>I came to realize that both my parents, beneath their showy veneers of love, had always been in truth, envious, hateful closet communists who twistedly fear and loathe achievement and real happiness, and constantly work to sabotage anything that strives to live beyond a grey mediocrity.

If your story is true, I suggest getting a nine-to-five job and renting a room.

(Edited by David M. Brown on 6/27, 3:30pm)




Sanction: 14, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 14, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 14, No Sanction: 0
Post 22

Monday, June 27, 2005 - 2:52pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
num++,

I'm glad you asked... Because yes, there were certain signs along the way.

1) Watch their taste in popular culture... I can't stress this enough.  If their taste in books, music, movies, whatever revolves around the final, thematic notion that "anything goes", then avoid that person -- not like the plague -- but as a plague.

As an example, during the time that she and I were together, my favorite movie of the summer was Forrest Gump.  Now, while this might not necessarily be an officially-sanctioned Objectivist movie, I think it definitely beats hers:  Pulp Fiction... a cosmetically slick and stylish piece of cinematic cancer that held nihilism and sadism up as virtues for life.

2) I think it was Robert Ingersoll who said something to the effect that "adversity does not reveal a person's true character... even the very worst people will do right when they have to.  If you want to know a person's true character, give them power."

To this end, I once bought she and I, a matching set of those little, digital Tomagatchi toys, which she said she wanted very badly.  She and I were apart for a week afterwards, and after that week I met back up with her, and the conversation came around as to how long her simulated little creature had lived.  Keep in mind, this was an instance of having total power... simulated, total power over a simulated, "living" digital creature.

Mine lived for about a week or so... During that time, I attentively "fed" it, showed it affection, cleaned up its bodily waste, put it to bed, and disciplined it when it felt like being nasty and mischievous for the sheer hell of it.

And how long did she report that hers lived?  With great amusement, she reported that hers lived for maybe two days.  During that time, she took great delight in reporting to me that she starved it, beat it randomly, deprived it of sleep, let its bodily waste accumulate, and ignored its need for affection.

On some level, this creeped me out a bit, and I quickly dismissed it as just a warped sense of humor, and that, of course, she would naturally be able to know the difference between that sort of callous disregard in a simulated game and when dealing with real people.

But of course, she didn't.  Because on some level -- and Ayn Rand has alluded to this -- how you treat anything, is how you really treat everything.

The point of the second example is:  give her some safe form of power, and see how they wield their power.

3) Look like hell for a person who presents important contradictions in their life... then rebuke that person utterly, with a minimum of drama and conflict.

4) Watch out for disparities in objectivity between you and them.

5) Watch out for people who have been through trauma, and who have never had a chance to yet re-establish their sense of power.  They will not be able to resist the conscious or subconscious temptation to lull you into vulnerably depending on them, so that they can have you in a position to treat you as they have been treated. 

This is not to say that you can't attempt to help people who have been traumatized; just understand that the quickest and easiest way for an impotized(?) person to get a sense of power, is to sadistically abuse anything or anyone that is capable of showing a reaction to abuse.

And those are my best tips.




Post 23

Monday, June 27, 2005 - 2:59pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Michael,

Well, apparently I was a late bloomer.  What can I say?  I didn't want to be... I would have avoided it if I could.  In all honesty, I feel that I tried very often in vain over the years, to overcome the sabotaging effects of my sneaky and malicious father, and his lifelong spin doctor, my mother.

They raised me to not be able to have any sort of alternative frame of reference, if that makes any sense. 

Therefore, I had no conceptual immune system in place for all these things... I logically assumed that it was normal, and I was faulty somehow.

But now that the full and dismal horror has been revealed to me at last, and after my utter devastation, I find myself so unable to trust anything anymore, that I'm in a constant state of hypervigilance.  If I don't find a suitable person that I can actually trust, I'm sort of honestly resigned to developing cancer or something, from the immune system suppression that constant hypervigilance brings.




Sanction: 7, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 7, No Sanction: 0
Post 24

Monday, June 27, 2005 - 3:33pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Michael,

Powerfully moving article! Maybe this will motivate me to revisit my feelings around my wonderful father's death when I was age nine. Articles like these give people like me the courage to face their inner demons and come to a new level of self-understanding. Thank you for the wonderful gift you've given us in chronicling this struggle and triumph!

Jim




Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 25

Monday, June 27, 2005 - 5:32pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Michael,

This was a great account of learning from one's experiences and moving on.  You have a good sense of life and I'm glad you've been able to move past them (in the important sense at least).

---Landon




Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 26

Monday, June 27, 2005 - 6:33pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Wow,

I can't thank you enough for writing this, I'm just getting started out and a big question for me is "how do I avoid the mistakes?" I know I'm going to hit some but if I can miss the more important ones, I'll be all right. And this article helped a lot.

I've always said betrayal is an unforgivable sin and a spouse doesn't have to sleep with another person to do it. Patience can be a virtue but fortunately I learned long ago that there also needs to be a line in the sand, a point of no return.

I also decided a long time ago that I would only hook up with an American girl. Some of my best friends are foreigners but I honestly don't understand them a lot of the time. Behaviors, attitudes, and the such are just different. It isn't overcomeable but marriage is too important not to be absolutly sure. I know American norms, behaviors, attitudes, customs, etc so I can make a much better picture of them over a foreigner.



Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Post 27

Monday, June 27, 2005 - 8:18pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I just "stumbled" upon this and ..what can I say? Before reading this, I discover that I barely knew you at all!. I thank you for setting me straight (so to speak) about the man you are and journey that brought you here.
I have followed a similar path in my evolution as an Objectivist as you have, and I don't think I have heard anyone say just what Barbara did with "Passion" for Ayn Rand and Objectivism as simply and clearly as you do here.



Sanction: 24, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 24, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 24, No Sanction: 0
Post 28

Monday, June 27, 2005 - 9:24pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I just did a horrible thing - not one I intend to repeat in the future. But I just shamelessly went through the whole lot of you and bonked those who said that I touched them by my article. I am so overwhelmed that I didn't know how else to express my gratitude.

Here's a comment or two for all of you:

Kitten
– You first (as is proper).

You are Number Only. Sole. My highest value. The woman who really does fit my whole life and spirit like a glove. I love you. Purrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr…

Linz
– I want to put credit where credit is due. You are the one who saw potential in a story I told you and asked me to do the article. You corrected a horribly misspelled word and you were the one who suggested to italicize the last line (that’s the artist for you). But most of all, you did Solo. I consider myself to be a Solo success story and I am very proud of that.

For those who have not heard it, I will repeat it here - ON SOLO I came out publicly as an Objectivist, I realized a lifelong dream of talking to Barbara Branden, I met the woman I love and I am accumulating a body of work that will serve me well in future projects. There’s a lot more too. I find all of this eminently worth fighting for and that is why I have fought so hard to keep Solo strong. Thank you so much, Linz (and deep thanks to Joe and Jeff for Solo by extension).

Barbara
- What can I say? I read your post and my ears turned red. Good God! Now I have to live up to that in your eyes? (looking around - Where'd that damn whiskey bottle go to?) (Just kidding – dayaam!! Stop thinking so loud!!!)

Seriously speaking. Your presence and friendship honor me more than I ever expected in life. Now I believe you can begin to understand some of the impact your book had on me (believe it or not, there’s a bit more). I would like to give here a quote from my "coming out as an Objectivist" post – the one to you here on Solo on February 17, 2005:

"In your case, specifically, I consider you as a for-real heroine in life. Only a heroine could have kept her peace all those years to honor a pledge of secrecy that should not have been required of anyone. And only a heroine could have broken it the way you did."

Thank you from the depths of my heart, mind and soul.

Ruth
– I might pass on that story of yours (maybe not). Still, once in a lifetime is enough! Btw – I most certainly was a victim. I also reacted poorly. Both are facts – and I had to learn them and make peace with them the hard way. Both hurt a lot back then too. (No longer and no self-pity.) Thank you for reading my article.

Matthew
– I’ve been accused of a lot in life, but never stunning! Dayaamm! Thank you.

John Newnham
– As usual, your words mean a so very much to me. Let me disclose publicly that I asked you to revise an un-released article of mine a while back, and you did so brilliantly. I hope your comments showed here. Thank you. (Now how about you. Huh? Huh? Huh? You know I love your work.)

Luke
– You have turned into quite a sidekick. Thank you. I like you. I once predicted that we would become lifelong friends. I see that starting to come to pass.

Sharon
– Thank you very much. Yes, I am relieved to leave all that behind, but there was a whole lot more first! Dayaamm! And who said I was finished? //;-)

Derek
– I am in full agreement that I would not have produced a piece like this on any other forum than Solo. I have seen several posters state that I am inspiring them to write similar accounts – and you have no idea of how that brings joy to me. This, to me, is one of the things Solo is all about – taking the covers off embarrassment and hidden misery and embracing life to the fullest. Thank you most deeply for your kind words and appreciation.

Michael Marotta
– Sanctioned right back at you. (wink)

Sarah House
– Thank you so very much. You know I think you represent the finest spirit a person can have around here – and, hell, you’re not even an Objectivist! Solo needs more like you. Shine on, girl.

Marcus Bachelor
– Thank you for the kind words. (It’s been a while since I have heard "bravo.") Yes, I survived. But I don’t ever want to go though that again.

Robert Winefield
– Thank you. I am particularly pleased that you and others hone in on what I wanted to convey in the article – the spirit that is needed to recover from being targeted, and just not the trouble itself.

Mike Erickson
– What you said, that I affected your life, is one of the highest praises that any author can ever expect. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I somehow feel that when we finally meet, we are going to be good friends. Over time, whenever I have seen a post of yours, I have always checked it out. We think a great deal alike.

Jeffrey Lewis
– Thank you. I’ll be seeing you down at the poetry café. (Sorry I have been absent. I have been a bit swamped, but I will be there shortly.)

Vernon Redwine
– Let it all out, man. Get all the poison out. I know exactly where you are at. It’s always a new story and it’s always the same old story. Did you decide to do it online like that, or were you not able to keep it in anymore? Since you did it that way, I also would like to make a comment about this in public.

I want to tell you something – something really precious – but please take this from one who lost ten years of his life when he found himself where you are now, and at about the same age. Someone who knows. I see you, man.

It ALL hurts right now. Every bit of it, and it is OK to hurt. Let it out like you are doing.

But there are two hurts. One is from the crucifixion. Nails and starvation hurt. Bad.

The other is from the self-pity that comes on without being called. It doesn’t want to go away either – but you have to make it. Otherwise it will take you down. The only way I know how to do this by yourself is through introspection to identify which is which. You don’t have to be ashamed of it. It’s OK to feel self-pity. There is nothing immoral in that. We all do at one time or another. It’s not OK to ignore it. The price is way too high.

Let the hurt run, then analyze. Then let it run some more, then analyze. Find people who have been there and talk to them. Share not only the pain, but the solutions. You have a long road to go, but I can assure you, it is possible to get out of where you are at and be happy. And you will find some of your dreams along the way. Don’t ever let the self-pity keep you reaching for a star – at least one second each day if you can’t do more. Just one second. Just one. It will grow…

num++
- No articles in the works right now on how to detect hidden malice, but that is not a bad idea. I have always found 20-20 hindsight to be very perceptive in my life . //;-) Thank you muchly (grrrkkk!) for your appreciation.

Michael Dickey
– Thank you for your kind words and comments. I have grappled with some of the doubts you raised and, as I mentioned in the article, have inverted the rigidity-tolerance over time over many values. This has served me well.

Andrew Bates
– What a great pleasure! Thank you! When are you going to take a picture in that Hooters t-shirt that all those pretty girls signed for you?

Bob Palin
– What another great pleasure! I am so glad you identified – I’m very, very touched. And yes, there is a wonderful sense of life around here and I intend to bask in it and foster it as much as I can. It is a shame some miss out because of misunderstandings. From one basker-fosterer to another (what a joyous sense of life you have) – thank you very much.

David Brown
– I cheated with you and bonked you anyway because of your e-mail. You are a marvelous person and thank you very much. Of course, your advice to that troubled soul is absolutely correct in order to help start getting over the self-pity. What is hard right now (I believe, at least, from what I read) is that there is nothing but huge waves of pain and confusion. Still, a little independence will go a long way for him to get on with the healing.

James Heaps-Nelson
– Thank you deeply. As I mentioned above, affecting the life of another human being is the greatest tribute any writer can hope for. I appreciate that more than you can know.

Landon Erp
– Thank you very much. I am pleased you liked my article.

Clarence Hardy
– I am going to drown in all the gushes! LOL… If only choosing a woman were as simple as nationality! It isn’t. Be careful with requirements and paranoia too. I fell off into the trap of being so skeptical and demanding that I spent long stretches of needless loneliness. Everyone needs you to cut them some slack. That is part of what friendship and love are about. The rub for me has been to find the right point.

James Kilbourne
– Thank you so much, my friend. I have wanted to be noticed by you for some time (you’re never supposed to say that are you?). I am very glad you could learn a bit of who I am. (There’s more.) Anybody who brings happiness into Barbara’s life like you do with your friendship has my full, almost unconditional, admiration and respect.

Whew! I hope I didn’t miss anyone (if I did, please Solo mail me and complain). I will get the ones who come after this post later. I don’t intend to leave anyone out.

I’m touched by all of you. Once again, thank you all from deep within my heart.

Michael

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 6/27, 10:31pm)

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 6/27, 11:42pm)




Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 29

Monday, June 27, 2005 - 11:18pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Michael, I am astonished at your courage in your life and sharing your story with us. I want to tell you a secret: Living is transcendence and the more there is the more you have lived. You didn't waste any part of your life--lemons into lemonade. Pain is hell, but passionless blandness is you might as well be dead or not have lived at all.

--Brant




Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 30

Monday, June 27, 2005 - 11:19pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I have the pleasure of being able to spend most of my time with generally good people.  They have their faults, and some are better than others, but so far as I know, none are vicious.  Or blatantly hypocritical.  Or evil.

So it can be shocking, to the point of fury and tears, to be confronted with stories of people doing horrible things -- real people, not just villains in books, who are doing their darndest to destroy the lives of others.  Especially when their target is an admirable, heroic individual.

But it's important to be reminded that evil does exist.  And even better to see the hero triumph in the end.  Thank you so much for so eloquently and unflinchingly showing us both.




Sanction: 20, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 20, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 20, No Sanction: 0
Post 31

Monday, June 27, 2005 - 11:30pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Michael,

     Having recently discovered that the one whom I considered my highest value did not consider me his, this article could not have come at a more perfect time. After a day or so of being depressed (he really and truly was the one with whom I thought I reached the pinnacle of happiness) I read this... and I was floored. It truly moved me to tears. It made me happy because I know that there is something better than that which I have had these last 2 years... and if that is true, than it's going to be damn good.

I am so glad that you and Kat found each other. You're both just incredible. I too wish that Jennifer and Jason, et. al. could read this piece... maybe they will. It's just so great. I am still churning from my recent break up... it is a loss; we have shared so much together these last years, and we had many plans. But there are men like MSK in the world... this fact makes my day much brighter!

Long live the NEMS! ;o)

~Nicki Theberge




Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 32

Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 3:56amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Michael,

From the past we can only learn (hey: that's a pretty good thing!.)

Your courage empowers you to act in the present and face future.

Best wishes,

Joel Català

(Edited by Joel Català on 6/28, 9:32am)




Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 33

Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 9:55amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Michael,

I thought you might get a kick out of this link, for good or ill:

http://www.humiliatingwives.com





Post 34

Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 10:13amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
er..... excuse me.  That was rather inappropriate.



Post 35

Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 11:13amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Inappropriate to what agenda?



Post 36

Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 11:17amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
It is a testament to your power with words and your honesty Michael, that this story touched so many of us in deeply personal ways.


regards
John



Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 37

Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 12:33pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
LOLOLOLOL...

Vernon, who the hell are you? Are you someone else hiding behind a name? Your story is starting to not hold water, dude. Getting fishy.

Maybe I should start guessing?

LOLOLOLOL...

Michael




Sanction: 24, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 24, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 24, No Sanction: 0
Post 38

Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 3:12pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Michael, I admire the integrity (including the courage and confidence) shown in your wonderful article. You are a great role model for those of us who want to see others and be seen by others as ~real~ people who have had problems and have worked hard to rise above them.

I have my own story, relating to similarly agonizing ordeals from second marriage. Some day, when I have more time to do a proper, thoughtful job on it, I will write up and post this horror story, with particular focus on how my own naivete and breaches in Objectivist ethics got me into the mess I was in for 13 long years, and how sealing those breaches and outgrowing my naivete got me back out.

In the meantime, I'll simply say that my third marriage is going strong after 15 wonderful years, and that if I had had the sense to do the right thing when I first met my present wife (1969), we both each have avoided a 20-year detour into two disastrous prior marriages.

And kudos to Michael for starting the ball rolling. You are a true psycho-epistemological hero, which is the most basic kind. :-)

REB




Sanction: 9, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 9, No Sanction: 0
Post 39

Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 3:40pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Vernon, Michael and I don't see eye to eye on a lot of things but I think your "link" is not only inappropriate but down right insulting.

I hope its your attempt at "humor" because it seems to me your trying to throw a question in to his story. And it really makes your  story questionable.




Post to this threadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Forward one pageLast Page
[an error occurred while processing this directive]


User ID Password or create a free account.