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Post 60

Friday, March 25, 2005 - 2:40amSanction this postReply
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I can only imagine that frustration for someone like my mom, or the Schiavo family, who do all they can against all odds.

I completely agree, it must be heartbreaking for them.

I wish Terri's husband and  family could have come together and reached an agreeable solution. 


 

(Edited by Marcus Bachler on 3/25, 2:44am)


Post 61

Friday, March 25, 2005 - 8:08amSanction this postReply
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For Rick: Yes, it is a Living Will and my executor has it as well as the lawyers who drew it up with me.

Post 62

Friday, March 25, 2005 - 8:13amSanction this postReply
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For Glenn: In that state Terri is reportedly in it makes no difference to someone whether his or her mere survival is prolonged two minutes or fifteen years. I wouldn't expect anyone to treat me to this "benefit" but if someone chose to do it and no one but that person carried the burden, I (now, when I can think about the matter clearly) wouldn't object. Why should I? Nothing but that person's investment would be involved.

Post 63

Friday, March 25, 2005 - 10:03amSanction this postReply
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Robert said:

"I suggest we get a grip on the rhetoric employed against people who disagree, and argue the issues on their merits."

and:

"That some Objectivists are falling for this naked ploy by politically active mystics is as demoralizing a spectacle as anything I've witnessed in well over 30 years association with this philosophy."

I believe the issue is "should the parents of Terri Schiavo be allowed to preserve the remnants of her life given the fact that the husband of Terri Schiavo no longer desires to preserve her life." The important facts to me are: 1. Would Terri Schiavo desire to be kept alive in her present condition? 2. What is the potential benefit to be gained by the continuation of her life or her death? 3. What is the potential harm to the continuation of her life or her death?

And by benefit or harm I mean to the individuals directly involved in this legal dispute, Michael Schiavo, Terri Schiavo, and the parents of Terri Schiavo.

I am blind to all other considerations in this dispute, including the possibilities of some group or groups using this case as propaganda to pursue some other agenda.

As to #1: This is in dispute. There is no written statement by Terri Schiavo. I believe the law should decide in favor of preservation of life if there is no written statement and the wishes of the person involved are in dispute.
As to #2: The potential benefit would be the peace of mind and quality of life of the parents and family of Terri Schiavo.
As to #3: I see no harm in the parents taking over her care.

I believe I have argued on the merits of the case. I don't believe I or any other objectivists have fallen for any ploy. If there were a written statement by Terri Schiavo I would agree that her life should end but I agree with Michael Kelly, it should be by injection and not dehydration and starvation. If Michael Schiavo and his new family faced a lifetime of impoverishment if Terri Schiavo continued to live, I would also favor ending her life, but by injection.

I would like to add: If Terry Schiavo were to become a "public burden", supported by unwilling benefactors, I would favor her death.
(Edited by Mike Erickson
on 3/25, 10:06am)


Post 64

Friday, March 25, 2005 - 10:36amSanction this postReply
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Tibor wrote: “In that state Terri is reportedly in it makes no difference to someone whether his or her mere survival is prolonged two minutes or fifteen years. I wouldn't expect anyone to treat me to this "benefit" but if someone chose to do it and no one but that person carried the burden, I (now, when I can think about the matter clearly) wouldn't object. Why should I?”

This is interesting to me for the context of each of us choosing what we would want to happen to us. I respect Tibor’s point, that he wouldn’t care if someone kept him alive because he would be incapable of even knowing that it was happening as he would already be “gone.” Again, I respect his take on this, but I see it very differently. I am furious at the thought that anyone would get away with keeping me alive in that state. Furious, as I imagine someone saying, “Jon definitely didn’t want this, but he’s “gone” now, so what’s the difference? His mom really likes seeing him at the hospice every day, what’s the harm?” Furious! (Not at Tibor, or anyone here, just at the thought of it happening to me.)

My reason is that I do not want to be a lump that my mom visits every day. That lump will not be “me”, but it will be my body and it will embody the memory of me—and it’s not for her or anyone else to cry over instead of having a life. For fifteen years I am a lump someone can’t let go of? YUK!!

Anyway, everyone will have his or her own personal reactions and wishes—there’s no correct answer.

Jon

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Post 65

Friday, March 25, 2005 - 10:52amSanction this postReply
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Without trying to step on any toes (please, no one at SOLO think that this is directed at them - it isn't), there is a fable from Fantastic Fables by Ambrose Bierce that I find pertinent. I think it illustrates quite well my argument that Terri's thriving with nourishment is an indication of her present "choice."

The Sportsman and the Squirrel
 
A SPORTSMAN who had wounded a Squirrel, which was making desperate efforts to drag itself away, ran after it with a stick, exclaiming:
 
"Poor thing! I will put it out of its misery."
 
At that moment the Squirrel stopped from exhaustion, and looking up at its enemy, said:
 
"I don't venture to doubt the sincerity of your compassion, though it comes rather late, but you seem to lack the faculty of observation. Do you not perceive by my actions that the dearest wish of my heart is to continue in my misery?"
 
At this exposure of his hypocrisy, the Sportsman was so overcome with shame and remorse that he would not strike the Squirrel, but pointing it out to his dog, walked thoughtfully away.


Just to be absolutely clear, I see the hunter's dog as an appropriate metaphor for slow starvation.

Michael


Post 66

Friday, March 25, 2005 - 2:26pmSanction this postReply
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Joe,

I just want to say that I too am moved by your brother's situation and your mother's determination to care for him.

MH



Post 67

Friday, March 25, 2005 - 3:24pmSanction this postReply
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"Again, we are not assigning guilt here. We are assessing the validity of someone having the power to order a death! That's not a natural right that requires proof of guilt to extract. It's a highly questionable privilege that requires total proof of legitimacy to maintain."

Wonderfully said, Alec.

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Post 68

Friday, March 25, 2005 - 3:40pmSanction this postReply
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Since the name-calling has ended, and since the thread on the Forum seems to have shifted here, I -- like McArthur -- have returned.

Joe, I feel tremendous sympathy for the plight of you and your mother. And I feel sympathy for Terri's parents, although their concern does seem to have turned into an obsession. I was in a not-dissimilar situation, and I know how it feels.

My mother, whom I dearly loved, fell desperately ill of kidney failure. Somewhat against her wishes, I insisted on taking her to the Cincinatti Hospital, which had pioneered the new treatment of kidney failure with dialysis. Dialysis was then in a very primitive state, but it did save her life. When we returned to Winnipeg, my mother purchased a dialysis machine and gave it to the hospital there, with the proviso that she could use it when necessary. For a year, she was on dialysis for eight hours once a week. Then, it became twice a week. Finally, the doctors told her that her condition had further deteriorated and that she now needed it three times weekly, and would have to accept the nausea and vomiting and miserable sickness that followed, for more than twenty-four hours, after each treatment.

It was then that she told my brother Sidney and me -- I returned to Winnipeg very often to spend as much time as possible with her -- that she was unwilling to continue living like this, and that she wanted to end the dialysis. She was completely aware that this was a death sentence, and that the prognosis was that she probably would not live longer than two weeks. She was calm, and rational, and understanding of the pain my brother and I, listening to her, were feeling. But she was determined.

Sidney and I consulted her doctor. He told us that the decision was ours to make: if we accepted our mother's decision, he would not require that she continue with dialysis; if we could not accept it, he would insist that she must continue. At one point I asked him: "If you had to be on dialysis three times a week, would you be willing to continue or would you prefer to die?" He was silent for a thoughtful moment, then answered that he would choose death.

My brother and I talked with each other about the decision for a long time. We concluded that her life belonged to her, not to us, and that she had the right to end it if she chose. She had the right to decide under what conditions her life was a value to her. We agreed, despite our own agony, to accept her decision.

She lived for a month. There was something she wanted to do before the end, and two weeks did not give her enough time. She called in, one by one, the members of her family, brothers and sisters, nieces and nephews, and the friends who meant the most to her. As I sat in her room listening, she told each of them, separately and specifically, what knowing them and being with them had given her and what joy she had derived from having them in her life. Each of them left her room weeping -- and exalted by the sight of her courage and love.

Of all the gifts she had given me, the greatest of all was this last terrible month when I sat at her bedside, listened as she talked with those she loved and watched her slowly fade from the exultant life that always had been hers. I had known she was a valiant and strong woman; I had known she was remarkable; I had not known the extent of it.

Now I want to tell all of you a story about Nathaniel Branden and Ayn Rand -- particularly since you are about to see Nathaniel vilified, with the publication of the book that is soon to be published and about which we have talked, more violently than he ever has been vilified.

During the period before her death, my mother, who was very fond of Nathaniel, spoke to me about him. He and I had been separated for more than a year at this time. She said, "Barbara, I would die in perfect peace except for one thing. Your separation from Nathaniel. I am so worried about you, and I so very much wish that you two were together."

Strange as this may seem, I did not know what I would say until I heard my own words. "I've been waiting for the right time to tell you. We are together again. We're convinced that we can make it. We've been talking about it for several months, and I recently moved back with him."

I could see in her face that she wasn't certain whether or not to believe me, although I had struggled to lie to her as convincingly as I could. When I left her room, I telephoned Nathaniel in New York and told him what I had said. "Would you telephone her," I asked, "and confirm my story? Can you do that for her?" He answered, "Wouldn't it be better if I came to Winnipeg and told her in person?"

He arrived the next day. Between the two of us, we convinced my mother that we were happily back together and would stay together.

When my mother had died, and I returned to New York, I told Ayn Rand what I had done, rather expecting her disapproval, although I felt not the faintest shadow of guilt about my lie. She said, "You did the right thing, Barbara. In your place, I would have done it, too."

Please remember this story when you are told, as you will be told, that Nathaniel is an unfeeling and cruel wretch. Remember it when you are told that there was little more to Ayn Rand than an obsession with moral absolutism. Remember it, as I do.

Barbara

Post 69

Friday, March 25, 2005 - 4:03pmSanction this postReply
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Barbara, thank you for your caring, and thank you for sharing that story. It does seem strange at first, but I know why you did what you did, and it really brought a tear to my eye.
For what it's worth, I won't give any credence to whatever trash is coming up about Nathaniel. Jeff Walker was wrong to write what he did, and I won't lend my ear to that kind of trash.
(Edited by Joe Maurone
on 3/25, 4:05pm)


Post 70

Friday, March 25, 2005 - 4:11pmSanction this postReply
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Barbara,

Thank you very much for posting that.

And as for the upcoming book, let me suggest that anyone who knows you and actually believes any of the crap your detractors have written in the past or in this book isn't worth bothering with :-)

MH

(Edited by Matthew Humphreys on 3/25, 4:12pm)


Post 71

Friday, March 25, 2005 - 4:21pmSanction this postReply
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Joe, Matthew, many thanks for your support. Let me say that that a few inconsistencies and errors may well be found in my book. I did my my very best to avoid them completely -- as did my editor and my copy reader -- but I have never doubted that a few may have crept in. I'm not aware of any book of which this is not so.

Barbara

Post 72

Friday, March 25, 2005 - 4:46pmSanction this postReply
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Barbara,
Given what I've seen so far, in your book and on here, you don't hesitate to state the truth.  If your evaluation is that what's about to come is a load of crap, that carries more weight than you know. 
Jason


Post 73

Friday, March 25, 2005 - 6:54pmSanction this postReply
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So, I'm sitting checking my email at 2.45 am (one of my best friends is in Kyrgystan with his wife Kymbat.) I decide to check out whats happening at solo and within a minute my eyes are wet with tears from reading your post Barbara! How am I gonna get to sleep now?

Post 74

Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 8:59amSanction this postReply
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Barbara,
Thank you for that beautifully told story about an admirable person.

One part jumped out at me as I was reading it:
He told us that the decision was ours to make: if we accepted our mother's decision, he would not require that she continue with dialysis; if we could not accept it, he would insist that she must continue.
Why was it your decision?  It sounds like your mother was of sound mind (would that my mind were that sound!), so why was it not her decision?  Is that the way it was in Canada then?  I find it appalling that her decision would not be honored.  I also consider it appalling that the burden of the decision was put on you and your brother.

Can a person today refuse medical treatment knowing that it will lead to their death?

Thanks,
Glenn


Post 75

Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 9:39amSanction this postReply
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Barbara,
Thanks for your heartfelt story. My sister died 5 weeks ago because of kidney failure after 50 years of diabetes. She too refused dialysis. I didn't know that dialysis was more negative than 3 times a week time-consuming, but obviously her doctors told her what she would have been in for. She made her decision last August.

--Brant


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Post 76

Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 10:22amSanction this postReply
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Barbara,

"I -- like McArthur -- have returned."

Whew!

When you come back - look what you do! Your post even became a separate article.

I am completely moved by your story. I have undergone a few extreme instances where time running out has caused me to indulge in this kind of white fib.

Doesn't it sound funny for me to say that I admire you for lying? In this case I do - especially as you thought you would be subject to Ayn Rand's stern disapproval - with what that would entail. What you did is a beautiful example of very deep love for a mother.

Apropos a certain "valliant" assault on your integrity about to be published - from what I have read on different sites, I would like to make a prediction.

This book will cause a little controversy - not much, but a little because it is based on Ayn Rand's journal entries. It will soon wither because of a blatant bias against you and Nathanial Branden. It will become very evident that much in Rand's journal was left out in order to present an ARI-slanted view.

It will not go down in flames with the general public - it will go out with a fart.

Then, overcoming incredible odds, an unbiased scholar (like Sciabarra maybe?) someday will be allowed to examine and compare all Ayn Rand's documents and write another similar work, letting the facts fall where they may. The public will be fascinated by the truth, as happens at times. Your and Nathanial's works will continue to sell successfully well after the hapless assault has dwindled.

The present attack might even be some free advertising.

btw - I wouldn't be too concerned with any inconsistencies in Passion. I am sure they are minor and based on the tricks memory plays over time. An errata (or even corrections) can be easily included in future editions if you so wish.

Also, I am starting to gear up into ferocious attack mode myself. Anyone who goes after my real-life heroine will have to deal with the consequences.

"It's Judgment Day for the Brandens" indeed. We'll see.

Michael



Post 77

Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 7:32pmSanction this postReply
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Jason, David, Glenn, Brant, and Michael -- many thanks for your reactions and support.

David, I didn't mean to make you cry!

Glenn, I don't believe that her doctor -- or the law -- had the power to force my mother to remain on dialysis. But if my brother and I, and her doctor, had strongly objected to her decision, we would have been putting great pressure on her to change her mind -- and she might have felt she should not go against our wishes.

Michael, I'm inclined to agree with your prediction about the forthcoming book. But I don't think it's necessarily the case that a great deal of Rand's journal is omitted in order to make the case against Nathaniel and me. This may be so, but the more relevant fact is that Rand was seeing the event and the people discussed from the point of view of a woman terribly hurt and terribly angry -- and that she had been fed a great deal of misinformation about us by certain of her more abject followers. Let me add that you are a very good man to have on my side!

Barbara

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Post 78

Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 8:35pmSanction this postReply
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Barbara,

I have a question of a rather intimate nature. I am making it in public because this whole thing is public. I think your friends and supporters would want to know. I know I do (but I am loathe to cross a certain line of insensitivity).

Do you know what is in those journal entries? Will you be hurt by things Ayn Rand could have said about you (and Nathianel)?

Seventeen years of intimate contact and sharing is a long time - and there is the added burden of keeping that stupid vow to protect her image when the whole world was crucifying you.

But don't answer if you don't want to. That will be perfectly all right.

Michael


Post 79

Monday, March 28, 2005 - 8:07amSanction this postReply
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Everyone must understand that, from a copyright standpoint, the new book cannot carry two-sided correspondence. Letters from Barbara or Nathaniel to Ayn Rand are protected under copyright law and cannot be cited without their permission and consent. In other words, you will only get Ayn Rand's correspondence or diary entries in this new book, plus whatever characterizations of the Brandens which the author decides to toss in.


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