RoR: Forum

Ed, I enjoyed your essay on Stadler.It was brief, but very well done. How about a series on the Atlas characters?

George

Post 1

Wednesday, February 9, 2005 - 6:50am

Sounds like the book will be very interesting. How about posting the list. Greenspan is the one one mentioned.

The Non-Fictional Robert Stadlers: Traitors to Liberty

Post 2

Wednesday, February 9, 2005 - 11:33am

I can't say I agree with characterizing Greenspan as a "Stadler" - although you don't explicitly say so in this article but reference others as saying that.

One thing I am still not sure of is the status of the "Gold Standard" idea in Objectivism, and this may relate vis-a-vis impressions of Greenspan. I am not sure of several things:

1. Does Objectivism support this concept?
2. I don't believe Capitalism requires it, so if it is supported, why?
3. The technical economic arguments against it are very strong. It is a commodity, and hence as variable as anything else, for one thing. In addition, we seem to have cured inflation quite nicely without using it. Some previous examples of gold not helping are Spain during the conquest of the New World, when the supply dramatically increased.

Post 3

Wednesday, February 9, 2005 - 12:04pm

Kurt,

May I suggest opening a new thread in the general forum on this topic? That might be better than starting what could be a long (though interesting) tangent on the thread of Edward's article.

Jason

Post 4

Wednesday, February 9, 2005 - 10:35am

Dear SOLOists,

the above article reminds me of a personal question. I posted about a similar issue some months ago, but the answers did not satisfy me completely. Since I was young, I was interested in mathematics, especially in pure mathematics. I would even say, that I love mathematics as Howard Roark loved architecture. My dream is to become a professor of mathematics. Unfortunately almost all universities in my country are state-owned. I don't consider myself as an objectivist, but I have some sympathies for the ideas of Ayn Rand and I see the problems arising from this fact. If I would take a job at a state-owned university, I would be dependent on a system, I view very critically. Whenever there would be a public discussion, if the state should spend more money on research, I would have to have take sides. I would have to decide me between my intellectual honesty and my wish to make a career. I believe, that in a free market society there wouldn't be many people willing to invest huge sums of money in pure mathematics. There would surely be a lot of research about applied math and there would be a need for math teachers. But both, teaching children and doing applied math, gives me some satisfaction, but not the same as pure mathematics. Another problem is, that I had to learn new things, if I wanted to change my career. Since there are better educated teachers and researchers in applied mathematics, it would lower my career chances, if I wanted to start something new. Since most actual research is very specialized, it would take some years to become good in applied math. After that, I would be 30 and my competitors would be 25. So I have to decide: Should I rely on the state or should I choose a career, which would be suboptimal in the short run? Of course, this question isn't purely theoretical. If it was purely theoretical, I would forget about my principles :-). Someday, the government will run out of money and then there won't be any jobs at state-owned universities. It is starting even today. You can read in the newspaper that the state is cutting x professor jobs there and y there. So it is very risky to hope for a government sponsored job. I'm interested to hear your thoughts.

Post 5

Wednesday, February 9, 2005 - 12:09pm

I very much enjoy your summation of the character of Robert Stadler. When I first read Atlas, it was the character of Stadler that really knocked me over. I couldn't believe how beautifully his character was drawn, or how perfectly he came to justice. I realized through this character how completely AR viewed human nature and what a great story teller she was.
I must say that I think that comparing Greenspan with Stadler would be funny, if it weren't quite so dangerous. Greenspan has consistently had some differences with Rand and consistently battled most of his life for many of her ideas. If he is an example of the worst evil in the world, the entire philosophy becomes comical.

Post 6

Wednesday, February 9, 2005 - 12:25pm

Hi Frank,

The answer you come to will have to be based on your personal philosophy. The ultimate question you are asking is, "what do you think I should do" which is in this case a question of ethics. Your philosophy is exactly what should guide you here. I'm not trying to be harsh and abusive here, but if you aren't an Objectivist, what ethical code do you subscribe to? How are you making your choices? These are the kinds of questions I would want to know before giving you my thoughts.

You may want to create a new discussion for this so as not to side-track this thread, although this is a related subject I suppose :-)

Regards,

Ethan

(Edited by Ethan Dawe on 2/09, 12:45pm)

Post 7

Wednesday, February 9, 2005 - 12:35pm

There was a thread that touched on gold and one on money, but neither explored the economic arguments regarding the "gold standard" idea, and since I am not sure of what the Objectivist argument is, or even if it exists, I guess I was looking for something more with which to begin a new thread, but I suppose a question is not so bad, either - I will set one up later I think. I also thought I needed to do more research myself, first.

Re: Fred - I am curious as to what country you live in? That can kind of put the overall situation on the map for us (both literally and figuratively).

Post 8

Wednesday, February 9, 2005 - 4:02pm

Frank,
If your feeling about Math is as strong as you stated ("as Howard Roark loved architecture"), changing it for something else would be, in my opinion, immoral. Much worse than teaching at a "state-owned" university.

When you say that the universities in your country are "state-owned", in what sense dose your government(?) own the university?

As far as I see it, university is probably the only place one can do pure math. You will teach math classes to all the science and engineering students, and do your own research the other half of the time. It is an honest and noble job. Even if your research may require some government funding, I see nothing wrong in it.

Post 9

Wednesday, February 9, 2005 - 9:56pm

This thread reminds me of the famed Chinese scientists Tsien, Hsue-shen, father of China’s ballistic missile and space program.

Tsien had an illustrious early scientific career. He was born in 1911 in China, came to the US in 1935, first studied at MIT, and then went to Caltech “to commence graduate studies on the referral of Theodore von Karman. Tsien obtained his doctorate in 1939 and would remain at CIT for twenty years, ultimately becoming the Goddard Professor and establishing a reputation as one of the leading rocket scientists in the US. During World War II he worked with the US military ballistic missile program as a designer. After the war he served in the United States Army as a Lieutenant Colonel. Tsien Hsue-shen was sent by the Army to Germany and was part of the team that examined captured German V-2 rockets.” (From Wakipedia).

Tsien left US and return to Communist China in 1955, amid McCarthy’s Red Scare. He immediately went to work as head of the Chinese missile program as soon as he arrived in China. In 1958, at the height of the “great leap forward” movement, Tsien published a short article in China Youth Daily, in which he claimed that based on scientific calculation of the solar energy, the limit of the crop production per acre (Chinese) can be as high as sixty thousands pounds. (I have a copy of this article at hand). Such a claim from the most prominent scientist in the country strongly supported Mao’s policy and contributed to the death of millions in the large-scale famine during 1959-61. He met Mao six times and tutored him personally in 1964. He was protected by the Party from all political movements including the Cultural Revolution. In 1989 he again supported the Party after the Tienamen Massacre.

Tsien is probably one of the most brilliant scientists in China, and at the same time one of the most despicable people that I’ve ever known about.

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 2/09, 10:04pm)

(Edited by Hong Zhang on 2/10, 10:42am)

Post 10

Wednesday, February 9, 2005 - 10:38pm

Frank, have you read Ayn Rand's essay, "The Question of Scholarships"? It may be relevant to what you're worried about.

Lots of Objectivists take jobs at state universities. I'd go for it.

Post 11

Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 5:59am

Frank --

I assume your country is not a dictatorship, so as a member of the faculty you will be able to express your opinions. Being in academia will give you the status and the platform to speak up and have some influence which you will not have working in private industry. The logic of math is likely to attract the type of students who can be open to Objectivist ideas. My husband was introduced to Objectivism by his math teacher, at a public High School.

Post 12

Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 8:10am

George:

Thanks!

I would not mind doing short pieces on Hank Rearden and Dagny Taggart. Maybe I will write about them in the same essay. I have always liked the idea of an older man hooking up physically and mentally with a bright and beautiful young woman!!!

:)

Maybe some other SOLOists would want to write on Francisco, Ragnar, Eddie, The Wet Nurse, Galt, Lillian Rearden, James Taggart, etc.

Katdaddy:

Some of the others that Walter Block includes in his fine essay are Milton Friedman, Friedrich Hayek, and Williamson Evers.

James:

Thank you!

Stadler is a fascinating character!

Walter Block does an excellent job of comparing Greenspan and Stadler.

Cheers!!!!

Ed

Post 13

Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 8:42am