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Sunday
November 7, 2004

Of Orion, Islam ... and the Contest of Ideas by Lindsay Perigo

The long & the short of this is that I have no perfect answer - but I'm always going to err on the side of the open exchange of ideas, even though I'm under no obligation to. We've all always known that upholding freedom of expression means upholding that freedom for its least attractive practitioners, as Ayn Rand once put it. (Read more...)
Discuss this Article (128 messages)

Tuesday, November 16, 2004 - 12:40pm

Marcus,

I read Byron as meaning that (American and foreign) women shouldn't buy into the hype that American men are being emasculated just by what is shown on TV. He meant that the Taliban warriors who thought they were seasoned fighters and Americans were wimps got a dose of reality from the American military machine. Nothing to do with rape.

Cheers,

Next.

(Edited by Next Level on 11/16, 12:44pm)

Tuesday, November 16, 2004 - 1:32pm

George, Byron, I am not referring to what I see in the media, though I do understand what you are saying.

I am referring, however, to what I witness on a regular basis, and to what I hear escaping from people's lips. Perhaps it is because I am in NY where leftism runs supreme, but if I were to engage the people I hear around me on every point such as national health care, the war in Iraq, stem cell research, etc., I would do nothing but debate all day long. Again, my view may be skewed.

Of course there are those who still uphold American values, and who continue to inspire many of us. However, there seem to be fewer and fewer as time goes by.

Tuesday, November 16, 2004 - 1:51pm

Marcus,

Next Level got it close, but not quite. Sorry. I forget that not everyone speaks my language. "Ladies" refers to anyone, male or female (but especially male), who has not passed through boot camp or Officer Candidate School. Nothing personal. I got called "lady" when I was in boot camp. If you read my post in that context, it will make more sense.

Tuesday, November 16, 2004 - 2:05pm

Before I am further misunderstood, I will explain that "bring it on" and "come get some", when it pertains to "ladies" (see above), is not an invitation to sex, but to a good-old-fashioned fight. Like George Scott says in the opening of "Patton", fighting is one of those quaint American past-times (at least our action movies get that part right).

Jennifer,

I think it is where you live because it is similar here in California (those damn Yoga-stretching, tofu-eating, tree-huggers). New York and California are but parts of America, not the whole, but, for better or worse, the part of America that the liberal media likes to show.

Tuesday, November 16, 2004 - 3:03pm

Joe M: "I think there is a conspiracy on TV to demasculinize the American male. Every other tv commercial has a stupid husband and a strong smart wife, or there is a group of men acting like children and the wife becomes the mother."

I've been looking at commercials to see if I can find an exception to this -- and I can't. I don't know that it's a conspiracy, but it might as well be. When, in the 1950's and later, commercials and sitcoms presented the American family as ruled by a benevolent-dictator father, living happily in the suburbs, with a scatter-brained mother who had no life apart from her family, women finally began to complain. I think men should now complain loud and long about this presentation of men-as-boobs.

Joe, you also wrote:"The woman are marrying the fat dopey husbands because the fat dopey husband knows he lucked out, and will do whatever she says..."

Now just a damn minute! What women do you think you're talking about? You're buying into the very commercials you criticize.

Tuesday, November 16, 2004 - 3:31pm

I do know an exception to the rule. USPS has this commercial where the wife is bugging the husband to go to the post office and send a package. The husband took care of it by having a postal worker come to the house to pick up the package, and he arranged it all online.

Tuesday, November 16, 2004 - 3:35pm

Byron, that's not how I understood the commercial. The wife had to remind the husband that he still had to take the package to the post office; the mailman just happened to arrive at the same time.

Barbara

Tuesday, November 16, 2004 - 3:52pm

On the contrary, he did arrange for that postman to pick up the package at that particular time. I am willing to bet a year's paycheck on that. In the commercial, the wife wanted him to drive to the post office. She was not aware that you could arrange for pick-ups over the internet. I used to sell used movies and books over E-bay and Amazon and that USPS service was quite useful to me.

Tuesday, November 16, 2004 - 4:24pm

I think men should now complain loud and long about this presentation of men-as-boobs.

I agree, but when and how will they make their voices heard over the screeches of feminists? It seems the only appropriate place for them to do so anymore is via stand-up comedy. (And even then, much of the time they portray themselves as buffoons.)

I, too, have tried to find an exception to this horrible genre of commercials, and aside from the USPS one Byron mentions, I haven't seen any.

Though I must say that the new Toyota truck commercial is somewhat of an exception -- a man spots a motorcycle for sale on the side of the road, and gets stars in his eyes. He has evidently been sent on a mission by his wife to pick up a piece of antique furniture, as it is in the back of the truck. When he pulls into his driveway with only the motorcycle in the back, she comes out of the house ranting, shouting, "Oh, that will look GREAT in the dining room. You are SUCH an a...", at which time he opens the back of the truck to showcase the desk. What does she say? She finishes the sentence with "wonderful man," but then punches him in the stomach anyway.

What really makes me curious is what is going through the minds of the men who are working on the creative teams to develop these advertising campaigns. Such teams tend to have about a 1:1 male:female ratio (from what I saw during my time in the industry), and the men are typically the ones driving the creative piece. (The women typically work on the account management side.) So are the men just clamming up? Or, heaven forbid, are they the ones creating such scenarios?

Food for thought.

Tuesday, November 16, 2004 - 7:53pm

Well, I tutor people for standardized tests and every once in a while, I make all kinds of concessions to feminism by using both "he" examples and "she" examples while teaching - you never know who is watching. I do try to get some revenge by mocking the political correctness of the passages and the correct answer choices. It's just that in the age of political correctness, you have to choose between peacefully maintaining your daily keep and fighting interest groups. It's always easy to bash men, especially WASP men, because no interest group is going to get you fired -such bashing is politically correct.

I mean, look at some of the verbiage wasted over criticisms of the cat fight Miller Lite commercials by feminists who thought that the ads were sexist (maybe they were, but so what - it wasn't a trend or anything, and beer was the advertised product). You want to fight that for every ad you make?

Tuesday, November 16, 2004 - 7:56pm

Jason - you wrote: "I love it, Linz! Indeed, many Americans seem to think that happiness is satisfying desires rather than cultivating talents, undertaking challenges, and living � not being alive � but living a life. A dose of muscular kick-ass individualism is henceforth proscribed. Let�s roll!"

Thanks for the applause. I'm assuming you mean "prEscribed" rather than "prOscribed." The latter means condemned or prohibited, which is clearly *not* what you have in mind for "a dose of muscular kick-ass individualism" - an excellent expression of an excellent concept. I hereby induct you, Jason Pappas, into my Nem Hall of Fame! :-)

Incidentally, in addition to Nathan 3 tonight I'll be posting an article by Marcus that is *very* apropos as far as *this* thread is concerned!

Linz

(Edited by Lindsay Perigo on 11/16, 8:00pm)

Tuesday, November 16, 2004 - 8:31pm

Barbara writes: "Now just a damn minute! What women do you think you're talking about? You're buying into the very commercials you criticize."

Barbara! Woah!

I was being a smartalec, and I am talking about life in the show, the show's logic, not life in...real life...(if that makes sense...). This particular remark was in regards to the trend of certain tv shows like KING OF QUEENS, etc.
(Edited by Joe Maurone on 11/16, 8:34pm)

Tuesday, November 16, 2004 - 8:58pm

I just want to provide a testament to George and Byron's posts: that my family must belong to the 270 million Americans. The most watched channel in my household is "Animal Planet", followed by "The Weather channel". ;-) We rarely watch any TV sitcoms. I like many PBS's Masterpiece theatre shows, ice skating competitions, "Judging Amy", and some bits and pieces here and there that might attract my attention. That's about all.

I used to following certain American TV shows, but life is too full for me right now. Besides I can't stand most of them anyway. They certainly don't resemble our life. But I can't deny that some women I met are quite like those on TV.

Tuesday, November 16, 2004 - 10:15pm

To Joe M:

Never mind.

Barbara

Tuesday, November 16, 2004 - 10:21pm

I was being a smartalec

Position taken, Joe.

Tuesday, November 16, 2004 - 8:38pm

I believe Rush Limbaugh said this, and the recent posts make it worth repeating:

"There is nothing more effeminate than the European male."

As for the thread's origin, I like some of Orion's posts, and I don't care if he says anything bad, I can handle it. I would like to see him continue as part of the conversation here. In fact, I even miss that blow-hard "I am, G. Stolyanov III" - he was a trip.

P.S. - How do I get a picture? I need to graduate or something?

P.P.S. - someone needs to post the quote from that MSNBC idiot Chris Matthews, who said that the "Insurgents" in Fallujah "are not bad guys" and just "disagree" with us! Unbelievable.

Tuesday, November 16, 2004 - 10:38pm

Alec, you know there are no monopolies in Objectivism...free market, baby!

Barbara, no problem. And don't mind me; I woke up cranky, I'm still cranky, and will probably be cranky tomorrow. My back hurts, my feet hurt, my legs hurt, and the Advil ain't working. I need a massage big time. Especially my feet. Took a bubble bath, feel a little better. Bah. No I don't.

Off to bed.

Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 2:01am

Byron,

Thanks for the explanation.

I thought that I must have misunderstood you, because normally I agree with your posts.

Sorry for jumping the gun (a little pun), but it was good to have that point cleared up for us "uninitiated" civilians.

Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 2:26am

Has anyone read Amusing Ourselves to Death by Neil Postman? It's about the effect the Television Age has had on the culture.

Who here remembers how different life was before political correctness took over? I first noticed it in late 70s/early 80s at around age 10. I remember thinking at the time, "People will never fall for this." Boy was I wrong.

How do you explain to the young person what has happened?

I suppose television has been the central medium for political correctness. But newspapers and skools are also rife with it. It's hard even for me to re-discover the way we communicated before political correctness became pervasive. Something priceless has been lost.

I wonder if today's nihilism isn't in part a rebellion against PC.

Byron, you hit on my idea...The "heartland" of America is very different from the media centers of New York and Los Angeles. To put it not-so-simply, The coasts tend toward subjectivism and the heartland toward intrinsicism. It's a nasty culture war between two mistaken philosophies.

Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 8:19am

Lance, you are right about the coastal divide. The philosophy of those in the media on either coast tends towards anti heroism, anti-man (*man* in the romantic/ heroic sense), and subjectivism. So, there are almost no strong men in pop media, no anti democrat jokes (only anti republican jokes), and a cynicism towards the ordinary American.

John