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Thursday, October 28, 2004 - 3:37amSanction this postReply
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A brilliant analysis!

I especially like your presentation of the manner in which the five basic concepts of social engineering contradict one another. And also your statement: "So-called experts fail to realize that scientific thinking seeks meaning in causes existing in the past, whereas human beings make decisions based on purposes reaching toward the future."

Barbara

Post 1

Thursday, October 28, 2004 - 7:15amSanction this postReply
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Good article Ed. A philosophy of social engineering in whatever domain it seeks to exist (education, economy etc) is doomed to fail because it denies REALITY.

But I wonder, perhaps it is nothing more than an attempt to create and/or sustain the "social engineers" as a class? (from those who write and speak about it theoretically all the way down to those who do the work of social engineering, and of course, those who solicit funding for it to exist).

This behometh has been created and it must be fed!

John

Post 2

Thursday, October 28, 2004 - 10:17amSanction this postReply
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Interesting article. I actually just started reading the FOUNDATION trilogy by Isaac Asimov, his idea of psychohistory sounds similar. (The government tries to coerce a mathematician to "predict" the future based on probabilities, though it doesn't matter if it's practical or not, the theory is that the mere suggestion (if given from a scientific viewpoint) will influence the masses to follow the predestined course. Scary! The funny thing is, it went from fiction to reality..


Psychohistory
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

For the fictional use of the term "psychohistory", see psychohistory (fictional)

Psychohistory is the study of the psychological motivations of historical events. It combines the insights of psychotherapy with the research methodology of the social sciences to understand the emotional origin of the social and political behavior of groups and nations, past and present. This field of study is considered by some to have significant differences from the mainstream fields of history and psychology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychohistory

Post 3

Thursday, October 28, 2004 - 10:35amSanction this postReply
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What we need to do is distinguish contemporary leftist social engineering from the concept of social engineering as such. Really the only essential of social engineering mentioned here is determinism: everything else is just the motives of the current advocacy of it. Lots of people, throughout history, have advocated lots of social engineering schema under myriad different theories, some more consistent than others. the contradictions of today are only of today, (which is not to say that previous social engineering projects did not have their own problems)

Post 4

Thursday, October 28, 2004 - 11:08amSanction this postReply
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Robert, are you suggesting that there are postive versions of social engineering, or just other forms?

Post 5

Thursday, October 28, 2004 - 11:27amSanction this postReply
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just that there are other forms left wholly untouched by this argument. I don't particularly like any of them myself if you're wondering.

Post 6

Thursday, October 28, 2004 - 11:37amSanction this postReply
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Cool, thanks for the clarification, Robert.

Post 7

Thursday, October 28, 2004 - 9:57amSanction this postReply
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Ed, Great Article!

I did have one question that I wanted to see if you could further explain. You stated:

"Collectivism represents nothing that exists in reality. Only individuals, with countless differences and experiences, can think and act."

With this statement I think that you are getting at the fact that Collectivism should not represent anything that exists in reality. This I agree with and your second sentence seems to strengthen just that statement. However, the sad truth is that Collectivism does represent aspects of reality right now. However, irrational it is collectivism does exist.

I know that this is nitpicky considering the rest of the article was beautiful, but i just wanted to be sure on what it is you meant by the statement.

Thanks,
JML

Post 8

Thursday, October 28, 2004 - 1:13pmSanction this postReply
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Actually, this morning, I was going to argue that there are other forms of social engineering left untouched by this argument and that not all forms of determinism rely on mechanistic denunciations of free-will or volition.  However, I noticed that Mr Younkins (or is it Dr Younkins) wrote about contemporary social engineering and egalitarianism, so I decided that there was nothing important that I disagreed with.

The prevalent use of IQ tests, from the SATs to the GREs to the ASVABs etc. for example, is arguably a form of social engineering (no it isn't run by the government, and no, ity isn't egalitarian but it is very widely used) that has tapped America (and the world) for intellectual ability more efficiently.  This has led to an American society that is seriously stratified by intellect in a variety of ways and to a degree not know in yesteryears.  Yes, IQ testing isn't centralized and used by the American government, but it does rely on a deterministic paradigm and it has efficiently created a society where people are the top of the IQ chain are almost never broke once they decide to work (in the past, work available was more of the physical variety).


Post 9

Thursday, October 28, 2004 - 8:18pmSanction this postReply
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As athiests who believe that the whole would is made up of matter; matter which is subject to the unchanging laws of nature - would it not indeed make sense that human behaviour was subject to these laws?

Or do you believe that the blobs of matter which make up the human body are somehow exempt from the laws of physics which guide all other blobs of matter?

The mind?

Do you mean the brain? That blob of grey matter?

Determinism seems the natural conclusion to draw.

And if human behaviour is deterministic (all be it very complicated) isn't it the duty of science to determine by what laws it operates?

Now (for those who can't recognise a devels advocate unless he wears a name badge) - i do not think our behaviour is deterministic. But wht isn't it?



Post 10

Friday, October 29, 2004 - 6:04amSanction this postReply
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Thank you Barbara, John, Joe and Jeff!

I am pleased that you liked my essay.

Jeff, what I was referring to was that in reality it is only the individual who thinks and has the capacity for rationality. Individuals' minds can interrelate but thinking requires a specific, unique thinker.There is no "group mind".

Cheers!

Ed


Post 11

Friday, October 29, 2004 - 7:46amSanction this postReply
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Ed, Thanks!

Post 12

Friday, October 29, 2004 - 7:46amSanction this postReply
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Martin,
"Most men have no knowledge of the nature of the functioning of a human consciousness and, consequently, no knowledge of what is or is not possible to them, what one can or cannot demand of oneself and of others, what is or is not one's fault. On the implicit premise that consciousness has no identity, men alternate between the feeling that they possess some sort of omnipotent power over their consciousness and can abuse it with impunity ("It doesn't matter, it's only in my mind")—and the feeling that they have no choice, no control, that the content of consciousness is innately predetermined, that they are victims of the impenetrable mystery inside their own skulls, prisoners of an unknowable enemy,helpless automatons driven by inexplicable emotions ("I can't help it, that's the way I am"). [Rand PWNI Pg29.]
Thanks,
JML

Post 13

Friday, October 29, 2004 - 7:47pmSanction this postReply
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Thank Jeffrey.

But your Bible quote does not actually answer my question.

Post 14

Saturday, October 30, 2004 - 1:22amSanction this postReply
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And if human behaviour is deterministic (all be it very complicated) isn't it the duty of science to determine by what laws it operates?

Oh, I think that it is obvious to a non-ideologue that human behavior is at least sometimes deterministic and the result of choice is at least sometimes predictable.  So yes, IT IS THE DUTY OF SCIENCE to find out what happens in the brain (or in the neural system in general) and what its effects on choices are.  And anyone who has read a competent work on neuroscience will see that scientists are making good progress.  Search for the Lord Reith 2003 BCC lectures and see what a prominent neuroscientist presented as strong evidence of brain's role in producing of mental states.

Post 15

Saturday, October 30, 2004 - 1:58amSanction this postReply
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Martin or Next Level,

Please do me a favor and try to open the new article just posted today. Its called, "The Sky is Falling". Try as I might I am unable to open the entire article, I keep getting an HTTP error message. This is NOT happening whenever I click on any of the other articles - I am confused by this?

George


Post 16

Saturday, October 30, 2004 - 1:49amSanction this postReply
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True Next.

But is it 'just sometimes' OR always?



Post 17

Saturday, October 30, 2004 - 2:17pmSanction this postReply
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It is certainly a passionate attack on uninformed social change, but surely begs some crucial questions. For example: it would follow logically from the proposition of freedom rooted into our inviolate right to enjoy the time we have, to enjoy most the experience only we can experience, namely our own experience of life, that the only social structure was multicultural, groups of like minded accumulated about certain ideas and enjoying the company of each other. Such is the experience, the living reality of multiculturalism, but then where is the social cohesion? I call socialised sets of ideas about which people aggregate 'social nodes', this being the core explanation of social structure and development. Living cultures are such nodes, they enable satisfaction for those at the node, but are quite unable to offer insight or assist in forging coherence, and this of all things is likely the greatest issue with which modern societies yet wrestle. The politically naive view of multiculturalism, based only on the experiential view of culture, leads into 'whose culture will dominate?' I propose we need accept and understand two levels of social nodes, the first, the typical cultural level, largely experiential, the second, what I call the pan-cultural nodes, these involve issues of centrally funded education, economics, nature and role of the firm and wealth creation, law and government, crucial infrastructure such as roads and sewage, and the like. These necessary cooperative issues are crucial if we are all to enjoy freedom. Society cooperative only in abstract, experienced in passion coherent only in intellect. Surely social engineering is making these things better and more effective, so not 'should we', but 'how do we do it better?', and I suggest that it can only be made better by better models.

Post 18

Saturday, October 30, 2004 - 10:57pmSanction this postReply
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True Next.

But is it 'just sometimes' OR always?
From the perspective of a scientist, it doesn't make a difference.  As long as there is something to investigate, keep investigating.  See my posts on Determinism in the Dissent Forum if you are interested in a longer discussion.  Hard Determinism no longer plays an important role in my philosophical worldview, but determinism as an indefeasible epistemological motivation does (especially when combined with the philosophy of reductionism).


Post 19

Monday, March 15, 2010 - 11:49pmSanction this postReply
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Determinism arises naturally from the social scientific outlook. The belief in determinism leads people to think that they have no active role to play in controlling their own futures. Utopian social scientists tend to have contempt for deliberative politics and participatory democracy and to prefer the neutral scientific manager, central planning, social engineering, and government control of the economy
 
I particularly agree with that statement and enjoyed reading the entire article. Participatary democracy has been null and void in Europe`s social engineering for nigh on 30 years.


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