RoR: Forum

Given Linz's comment linking this article to this month's piece of s*it poll, I was tempted to fly straight off the handle. However, I actually don't disagree with much of what Derek says here, or about the specific groups and musicians he mentions. I do think though that a distinction needs to be drawn in any genre between the trash and the valuable. It is an indefensible fallacy to claim that ALL contemporary rock and metal are of the same mindless, cynical malevolent nature. As I've identified repeatedly in recent days, many of the progressive rock and progressive metal groups have definite classical and even Objectivist influences. Rush's Randian leanings are well known whereas other prog musicians have explicitly identified classical composers amongst their influences, and even shown tribute by including sections of classical pieces in their contemporary music. The work of these groups embodies much beauty and intellect.

Shouldn't those who admire the classical composers and who seek a cultural renaissance be rejoicing at these developments?

Post 1

Wednesday, October 6, 2004 - 4:40am

"Punk, Heavy Metal - call it what you will - all cater to the disaffected and the vulnerable, with teenagers their easiest prey..."

This is no truer than the statement "Classical caters to the arrogant and pompous, with uppity assholes its easiest prey."

I love classical music as well as every other genre I've ever heard insofar as it is done well. Regardless of the content of "gangsta rap" (which I happen to dislike because of its message), no one can dispute that some of the rappers in the genre have talent for what they do. Just as no rational man would say that Hitler was a great man, we can all acknowledge that he was a very talented leader and propagandist. Similarly, there is a lot of metal which is certainly garbage, but a small amount which is written, recorded, and performed with every bit as much feeling as a classical piece, and with at least as much technical merit per musician.

One of the things I personally take pride in as a musician is my ability to spontaneously create music, improvising to a beat or rhythm and feeling the life of the music, and the excitement of the moment, unsure of where the organic being will go next. There is none of that with classical music, and there are very few classical musicians who have the slightest competence (or who simply never bother) to improvise. That's not musicianship. It's no more musical than an assembly line worker who sits on autopilot all day, just doing what's in front of them. A symphony's players (for the most part) open their notes, sit their sheet music on their stand, and go on autopilot as they follow the conductor's lead. There's nothing organic about much of classical music, and I think the beauty of some modern music is that it's so much less calculated, and so much more unpredictable.

Don't get it twisted: I appreciate classical music. I'm attacking it merely for the sake of showing that there are merits of modern music which classical music can't pretend to compete with even slightly. I think the great composers of the world, past and present, have demonstrated supreme talent. Anyone who can visualize music as played by dozens of musicians, and then put pen to paper and create the music for each of them to play is amazing.

Post 2

Wednesday, October 6, 2004 - 10:47am

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(Edited by Irfan Khawaja on 10/19, 4:22pm)

Post 3

Wednesday, October 6, 2004 - 10:55am

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(Edited by Irfan Khawaja on 10/19, 4:22pm)

Post 4

Wednesday, October 6, 2004 - 11:02am

What about Air Supply? They were "monsters of rock", too, right?

Right?

Right?

Can anybody hear me?

*sniffle, whine*

Post 5

Wednesday, October 6, 2004 - 11:06am

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(Edited by Irfan Khawaja on 10/19, 4:23pm)

Post 6

Wednesday, October 6, 2004 - 11:25am

Air Supply...that got a belly laugh out of me.
Though I have to confess to liking "All Out of Love." Call me sentimental.

Post 7

Wednesday, October 6, 2004 - 11:33am

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(Edited by Irfan Khawaja on 10/19, 4:23pm)

Post 8

Wednesday, October 6, 2004 - 12:11pm

Another Belly laugh...they should replace the Atlas icons on Solo with Belly laugh icons...
Interesting observation...Though Dokken did sing "Alone Again (Without You...) But I guess the love was still there...but with all those phallic guitars (and even bigger basses!) there was no shortage of "love", as opposed to the smaller violins of Air Supply...

Post 9

Wednesday, October 6, 2004 - 1:20pm

Crawling back past the entrance of death's door back from the world's worst flu, it is, once again, music that brings me back to life. "Heil, der Sonne!"( I figure if you're going to get a cold, you might as well get as much sympathy as possible out of it).
When I was 10 years old, everyone in my class had an "I like Elvis" button. I had a decidedly homemade-looking "I love Mario" button. It was not contrariness that inspired my rebellion; it was the life-affirming-glory of Lanza versus the at-best-banality of Presley that moved me.
I see many comments above praising contemporary music from people whom I have come to respect. I want very much to find greatness in music beyond that which was written 100 years ago. I am aware of the limitations of classical music expressed very well by Jake above. I have been waiting for great music to arise from the new sense of freedom, the vast technological advances, and the explosion of imagination that has occurred in the last century.
My definition of classical music is music which gets better, not worse, each time you hear it, so I do not limit my definition of greatness to one particular school or approach. It is my sadness, not my joy, that the "classical" school of music has produced most of the music that is worth hearing again. In my opinion, rock took a decidedly improved turn with the music of the Beatles in the mid sixties, and for about 10 years showed signs of growth in imagination, if not artistry. But it always led to nothing, whenever I followed up with the promise of something new. I have heard nothing since then that has inspired me to dig deeper, but I do confess that I have not looked very hard.

Do you think I am just a nostalgic, inflexible man whose time has past when I sing the praises of Lanza and Callas? Do you doubt my sense of weariness on occasion when I pull out Rachmaninoff's Second Piano Concerto to revel in the glory of existence?
Will one of you lead me by the hand to grandeur and glory in any rock music? I guarantee that I will approach it with a fully open mind; I'll buy the CD's, listen to your explanations, and, if converted, will carry the message back to all at Solo. I do not ask this of you so that I can safely come back and say. "I told you so. This music sucks." I really, honestly want to find greatness in something new.

Post 10

Wednesday, October 6, 2004 - 5:20am

"....lyrics glorifying..."

"drugs,"
such as Coleridge's "Kublai Khan"?
(what's wrong with drugs, anyway?)

"murder,"
the Old Testament, The Libation Bearers, Medea, The Flies, The Stranger

"crime,"
Antigone, Robin Hood, Les Miserables
(what about crime defined by unjust laws?
...no further comments.)

"rough sex,"
The Fountainhead (you asked for it, brother)
(and what's wrong with rough sex?... shall I share stories?)

"rape,"
(I could be nastier)
Gone with the Wind, any random Greek myth involving Zeus

"the constant denigration of women as 'hos'(whores)"
ROTFL!!! denigration of women? Oh Goddess, where do I start? The Bible? Pythagoras? Aristotle? Augustine? Bacon? Kant? Nietzsche? Strindberg? Mencken? The term 'whores by nature' was invented by rappers?! Kiss me, Kate!
(and what's wrong with whoring?)

I am *not* saying that ugly, sloppy glorifications of shadows and border situations and poetic, careful depictions of the same are aesthetically equivalent. They are not, and it's not my purpose here to defend rap or punk, of which I at least partially agree with McGovern's critique. I merely suggest that morality is not the best judge of aesthetic quality, and that the particular morality emboded by the above list is a conservative shambles indiscrimately condemning a laundry list of social disrepectability; good, neutral, evil, and coercive alike.

And since when has art ever been "moral", anyway? Name me three works of Western literature significantly longer than "ode to a Grecian urn" that don't depend on the aesthetic experience of real or alleged evil for their power? We the Living, Anthem, and Atlas Shrugged certainly fail. A tragic prose drama, a dystopia, and a gotterdammerung! And the most interesting characters in the Fountainhead are Wynand and Dominique!

"Evil is man's greatest strength" - Nietzsche

Jeanine Ring {))(*)((}
stand forth!

Post 11

Wednesday, October 6, 2004 - 2:42pm

Although not everything said in this artice was false, much of it was. There is greatness to many contemperary musicians, especailly in the progressive rock and metal categories. Listen to Yngwie Malmsteen's Rising Force, a classically inspired rock/metal opus which displays just as much, if not more, talent and beauty than the majority of most classical musicians. Metallica are another example. Some people might not like them because they are fast or "heavy", but those who judge them without listening to them or considering what they are actually doing are acting like imbisciles. The "Black Album" is a masterpiece of rock music, just listen to the Unforgiven and Nothing Else Matters, even if you are not into fast songs, those two will blow you away. Listen to Fade to Black on the album Ride the Lightning and all of your preconceptions of metal music will be out the window. Dream Theater can inspire thought and emotion that one could not imagine could come so quickly, as well as Megadeth, their song "A Tout Le Monde" is one of the most passionate pieces of music ever written.
To simply write off all comtemporary music as garbage is a heinous act.
P.S. James, if you want to open up to more modern music, listen to the Black Album and any Dream Theater you can come across, also check out Megadeth (they don't have a great name but are a good band, but it might take you a while to understand the way Dave Mustaine sings his songs, its different)

Post 12

Wednesday, October 6, 2004 - 3:11pm

James, if you're not already familiar with it, I would highly reccomend the Rush album Hemispheres to you. The opening track on the album is a twenty minute epic combining Greek mythology with a sci-fi story, and it is very clearly an examation the mind-body dichotomy.    Here is the final lyric of the entire piece to give you a taste:

'Let the truth of love be lighted
Let the love of truth shine clear
Sensibility
Armed with sense and liberty
With the heart and mind united
in a singe perfect sphere'

Much like an opera, the piece begins with an overture that briefly introduces the major musical themes.  From there, each theme then gets developed into a separate movement, all of them connected.

Many long rock compositions suffer from moments of exessive improvisation and/or overly repetitive figures, but not this one; it is through-composed all the way. It's really an impressive feat of integration.

But will you ultimately like it? That I can't say. You might have a hard time with Geddy Lee's falsetto vocals - many people do. I personally like his singing.

(Edited by Pete on 10/06, 3:22pm)

Post 13

Wednesday, October 6, 2004 - 4:14pm

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(Edited by Irfan Khawaja on 10/19, 4:24pm)

Post 14

Wednesday, October 6, 2004 - 8:28pm

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(Edited by Irfan Khawaja on 10/19, 4:24pm)

Post 15

Wednesday, October 6, 2004 - 8:41pm

Yes, start him with Rush....I think he will be enthralled by their musical prowess and uplifting lyrics. Good choice, Irfan!

Post 16

Wednesday, October 6, 2004 - 9:44pm

Irfan, I was thinking of more of a baptism-by-fire approach when I reccomended the Hemispheres album. James already seems to have an appreciation for opera and other forms of dramatic music, and I figured it'd be best to go with the piece with the most depth. Neverless, there might be something to be said for the diversity of the shorter, more streamlined songs on the albums you mentioned. There's no such thing as a bad Rush song, after all! (Oh wait, I forgot about Tai Shan, Speed of Love, Dog Years and Rivendell - I take that back!)

Post 17

Wednesday, October 6, 2004 - 9:48pm

By the way, do you think Lindsay will allow the formation of a 'Headbanging Caterwauling' SOLO group? Seems like there's a constituency for it.

Post 18

Wednesday, October 6, 2004 - 9:53pm

Probably not a group. More likely an internment camp! : P

Post 19

Wednesday, October 6, 2004 - 10:43pm