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Post 20

Tuesday, October 5, 2010 - 1:11pmSanction this postReply
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Gold is not a bubble yet.  When everyone you meet wants to buy gold, then it is a bubble.  It reached a bubble at the end of the period where my current advisor (Katz) suggested selling and moving into stocks, then we hit the stock bubble after that.  You need to ride the major trend.  We are still in a major commodities bull market.  Once it reaches bubble stage, assuming we don't instead have a full currency collapse, then will be a time to sell and buy cheap stocks again.

Post 21

Monday, November 8, 2010 - 7:23pmSanction this postReply
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Gold reached 1400 USD today.

Post 22

Wednesday, April 20, 2011 - 4:20amSanction this postReply
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Gold reached 1500 USD today.

Post 23

Thursday, April 21, 2011 - 8:50amSanction this postReply
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and silver is $46/oz

Post 24

Saturday, April 23, 2011 - 10:03amSanction this postReply
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Silver is still undervalued relative to gold, if the historical ratio is any indication. Historically, the ratio of silver to gold has been 15-1 to 16-1. Right now, the ratio of silver to gold is a bit over 32-1, and if you look at their respective exchange traded funds, SLV is outperforming GLD. Gold is doing well, but silver is doing better, and has a way to go before it catches up to gold; and gold has a way to go before it equals the inflation-adjusted level that it reached in 1980. In 1980, gold reached $800/ounce, which in today's dollars would be about $2,200. 1/16th of that is $137, which means that silver could conceivably triple its current value. Of course, this is all simply speculation, but it's not entirely unreasonable. :-)



Post 25

Saturday, April 23, 2011 - 12:26pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

I'm not an expert in this area, but I'd question using the historical ratios for two reasons.

First the industrial supply and demand for silver has changed with the onset of digital photography - the demand for the silver salts used with film has all but gone and I seem to remember that once was a significant component in demand for silver. And any historical comparison that includes those years where silver was used in coins to a significant degree would also be giving undue weight to silver in the ratio.

Second, I'd suspect that we have two ratios that we should examine. One that represents normal times - times where the conditions are relatively stable. The other ratio should apply to times where there are great fears of inflation or massive political upheaval. During those times Gold will, for psychological and historical reasons find its demand as a store of value, as protection, more greatly enhanced than silver.

Those observations aren't worth much since I can't follow up with any idea of what an appropriate ratio should be and thus don't know whether silver is low or high relative to gold.

Post 26

Saturday, April 23, 2011 - 1:01pmSanction this postReply
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I agree with Steve. I'm fully invested at 65% gold and 35% silver. I've been on roller coasters like this before with gold in 1980 that I bought at $171 and a stock that I bought at 25 cents and went to $8.00. There's no telling when they will peak out and collapse. The powerful forces of geo-political events and domestic policies are just too complex for anyone to evaluate. The only signal I'd pay attention to for selling is the degree of frenzy and panic in buying ... and even if it's extreme, you don't know if it will get worse and lead to 1929 Germany.

Sam


Post 27

Saturday, April 23, 2011 - 10:18pmSanction this postReply
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Steve and Sam,

Thanks for your comments. You make some good points that I had not considered. Still, silver is outperforming gold, appreciating at a much faster rate than gold is. What is your explanation? Is it just momentum buying? Or are people buying it like gold, simply as a hedge against inflation?


Post 28

Saturday, April 23, 2011 - 11:23pmSanction this postReply
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Bill,

I really don't know - no idea. I was just cautioning against relying on the old ratios. I don't know of any fundamental that might account for what is happening to silver.

Post 29

Sunday, April 24, 2011 - 7:34amSanction this postReply
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I think one possible explanation is that silver is "poor man's" gold. It's easier for a small investor to take a position with a smaller outlay. As well, there might be a psychological component. You don't have to commit yourself as much in that you won't be considered by others, or yourself, as being panicked in reacting to the current political and financial conditions ... just being prudent.

Sam


Post 30

Sunday, April 24, 2011 - 8:04amSanction this postReply
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WD: Is it just momentum buying? Or are people buying it like gold, simply as a hedge against inflation?

We say that "silver is the poor man's gold."  We are in a massive recession and have been at least for a decade, if not longer if you look at fundamentals of consumer prices or whatever measure you choose.  Corporate "downsizing" goes back to the mid-1990s.  The point is that you can buy silver in smaller units than gold with lesser margins against spot.  Walk into a coin store and buy 1 silver dime for $4 if you want.  You can't do that with gold.  So, there is that.


SW (below): Traditionally, silver is purchased by Indians as a safe haven during crisis and as a long term investment. The massive size of that market has influenced silver prices in the past.

Gold was illegal for private hoarding in India on much the same terms as the USA 1933-1976.  It is true that there is a historical preference for silver in India.  They are largely poor and so cannot afford gold.  So, there is that.  When the gold markets were legalized in India about 10 years ago, it did not greatly change the price of gold, though many expected it to.

More broadly, if I may ...

I know from my studies in numismatics that "historically" the ratio of silver to gold has been 12 to 1 for a thousand years in the Mediterranean civilizations of Greece and Rome, etc. It also fluctuated in those times.  However, as coins were not generally* money of account, it did not matter.  Gold was for export trade (or buying off barbarians); silver was for local use.  The first coins widely to carry their values were the "franc" coins of Henry III or IV of France about 1540. 

After Rome, in Western Europe, the relative values - abundances - of silver and gold fluctuated for the next 1000 years based largely on the availability from existing supplies and new mining.  The existing supplies were "plate" Roman household goods looted and hoarded by Dark Age warlords.  The mines were opened in mountains.  Hall in Schwabia was one town.  The Kremnica Mint and the Joachimsthaler ("dollar") were the result of other mines. 

Whether silver traded for gold in London or Florence or Flanders at 12 or 13 or whatever depended on supplies and demands. Broadly, silver was used across Europe, while gold was for export to the Arabs for silks and spices.  But, again, in the Islamic lands, the relative values fluctuated over time and place based on supply and demand. 

Generally, the mythic idea that the "natural" ratio of silver to gold is 16 to 1 came from England of the 16th and 17th centuries.  They passed laws trying to keep that ratio.  They wrung their hands over "bullion flows" and other mercantilist errors.  The looting of the Americas by the Spanish completely changed the reality of gold and silver.

In fact, over the course of 200 years (1600-1820) 60% of Spanish silver went directly to China (and India, etc.) where it was valued intrinsically as well as being overvalued relative to gold. At first, in Japan, in the early 1600s, gold to silver was 8 to 1 but the influx from the Americas changed that, of course.

When the Western nations went to a "gold standard" in the late 1800s, the demand for silver coin (actually coined bullion) fell.  In truth little changed: people still needed small coins. In fact, tremendous silver strikes in the USA hastened the erosion of the 16-to-1 ratio and silver was a cheap inflationary money - one of the motives for the gold standard, gold seeming more stable in natural abundance, despite "rushes" in California, the Transvaal, and New South Wales. Then, 100 years later the nations of the North Atlantic had to pay for World War II, and as we know the US stopped striking silver circulating coinage in 1964.  That created a huge inventory of available silver bullion.

Most silver today does not come from mines - though more does as stocks have been depleted over the decades.  (I think the number is like 40% right now; in 2000 it was like 10%, if I recall.)  Most silver comes as a by-product of copper mining.  We live in an electrical world -- and you cannot ring a bell with photons in glass.  Work requires copper.  ...  But we are in a Great Recession... probably have been since 2000.  You can check the copper mining figures, but the fact seems clear to me that the run-up in silver comes from:

1. Monetary inflation - paper is ever cheaper.
2. Consumption of silver bullion: even with 2% silver solder, our circuit boards are voracious consumers.
3. Drop off in primary mining of copper.

I read a lot of numismatic chatter and many silver bulls expect to profit from a perceived inefficiency in the "natural ratio" of gold to silver.  I don't buy it.

*Generally.  The Roman denarius (literally "tenner") was originally a 12: worth 12 one-pound bars of bronze, but winning wars to conquer Italy, defeat Carthage and get involved in Hellenistic dynastic struggles forced a revaluation downward. Some few Roman denarius series have an X on them, so show ten.  Also, among the Greeks until the 300s BCE, bronze was not used and little silver coins were common.  It was hard to tell 1/3 of a drachmon from 1/4 of a drachmon. Usually the designs were widely different.  One town Kolophon put letters TH and TE to denote "third" and "fourth." These are exceptions.  Generally, coins passed by count (tale) or weight.

(Edited by Michael E. Marotta on 4/24, 8:21am)


Post 31

Sunday, April 24, 2011 - 8:14amSanction this postReply
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Bill,

You could check to see if there is a lot of activity in silver in India. Traditionally, silver is purchased by Indians as a safe haven during crisis and as a long term investment. The massive size of that market has influenced silver prices in the past. There have been occasions where that major overhang has brought about market down-turns... has it gone the other way? Are Indians buying lots of silver? What has been going on with the Rupee? Is there some kind of multiplier effect of our dollar's depreciation in India? Just some thoughts. More than likely silver's run-up it is just investor's perceptions of a ratio to gold kind of thing.

Post 32

Sunday, April 24, 2011 - 8:56amSanction this postReply
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I have been reading articles on gold and silver and economics since 2008 now.  Finally starting to profit greatly from that.  A few things about silver now.  Silver will probably remain largely and industrial metal, as most silver is "used up" unlike gold, and its greatest value now is in industrial applications.  That said, the supply has been diminished and demand increases.  On top of that, more investment demand is being added, plus the remaining stores of silver that governments once had are entirely gone.  Ultimately, silver will be valued primarily as an industrial metal, but that could still sustain a fairly high value in and of itself.  For a monetary metal, that will ultimately be gold.  The 15-16 to 1 ratio is the estimate of the ratio of silver to gold available in mineral deposits, which may or may not mean that will or should reflect the price - most likely not. 

I recommend this website for a description of what is called "freegold" = http://fofoa.blogspot.com/  I think the arguments are compelling.  I also read most of the articles on www.goldseek.com but they vary in quality.


Post 33

Sunday, April 24, 2011 - 10:09amSanction this postReply
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The fundamentals that Kurt mentions, the industrial uses and the absence of more free silver (silver is now a byproduct of copper mining) are true, but they don't seem to be in play now - except in the minds of investors. At least that is the way that I see it.

If it was industrial use that drives the current supply/demand/price equation then the sharp downturn in production caused by the recession would have created a sharp downturn in silver prices. But instead we have this massive increase in prices. I can only see that as related to getting away from the perceived risks of investing in any of the types of investments that generate income as interest or dividends and/or fleeing from paper money. Either massive amounts of money fled conventional investments because of fears they were not safe, or the price is directly a reflection of inflation and/or inflation fears.

If it relates to an accurate estimation of inflation then the price should remain stable. If it contains the element of panic, or is more crisis oriented than inflation oriented, the price could come down. (I think that regardless of any short-term price movements, the inflation is more likely being underestimated than over.)

Post 34

Sunday, April 24, 2011 - 10:37pmSanction this postReply
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IMO, if any individual hopes out "out-research" the big players in this whole mess they're in for a hard and futile struggle. The big money boys can spend millions of $ getting facts and figures together to try to predict what the performance and limits of the two metals. I doubt that that approach will be effective, though — it's fraught with too much intrigue and psychology for anyone to analyse. Several months ago I read where an unidentified individual bought $100 million in physical gold. This one instance is in itself miniscule but it is the kind of thing that can screw up any prediction if it becomes widespread. Back in 1980-'81 did anyone ever even conceive that two individuals (the Hunt brothers) would try to corner the silver market? Of course not, but they tried and drove the price to $50. The list of possible scenarios can be virtually endless and the player can think that his decision is rational but the "black swans" can appear anywhere or any time.

Again, IMO, trust in any particular strategy can be helpful, though, in allowing a person to detach himself emotionally from the inevitable chaos. That can be important, particularly if he has a large position.

Sam



Post 35

Monday, April 25, 2011 - 1:50pmSanction this postReply
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Not the same situation Sam for too many reasons to list here - also, the majority of people are dead wrong again and again (see MSM predictions about the bubble, the stock market - wrong every time) - also, if you believe in the freegold theory, the ultimate destruction of the current debt system of fiat money is inevitable, and gold - physical gold - will be what you MUST have. I am planning on turning my first major profit on silver into more physical. The trend is something you can get right, and is often missed by the big $ guys chasing short term trades and who believe in the CW.

Then there are the ones that run the rigged system like JP Morgue and GS, who make money no matter what because they own the system.

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Post 36

Thursday, April 28, 2011 - 6:35amSanction this postReply
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If you weren't aware, there is a closed-end fund -- Central Fund of Canada -- that holds both gold and silver with a slightly lower expense ratio than the etf's GLD and SLV.

You can find it on Yahoo Finance, but the above link has more info about it.


Post 37

Thursday, April 28, 2011 - 1:37pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks. I'll keep it in mind but for US investors there's always the currency conversion costs (in and out).

Sam


Post 38

Monday, July 18, 2011 - 7:27pmSanction this postReply
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Gold reached 1600 USD today.

Post 39

Thursday, August 4, 2011 - 6:51pmSanction this postReply
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Here we go again. This is exactly what a lot of libertarians (and a lot who weren't) went through in the late 70s under the spell of Harry Browne and his imitators. Inflation finally peaked at eleven or twelve percent (not the several thousand that was supposed to be one hundred percent inevitable) before blowing itself off, and those who got in at the top of the market (which is really what this thread is advocating) got badly burned


At the time this post of advising against investing in gold was written by Peter, I pondered investing some of my money into gold which was at the time priced at 1300 dollars. He admonished everyone here for their amateur speculation, and not wanting to be presumptuous to give professional investment advice (yet gave advice to stay away from precious metal investments), he advised to diversity with professional help. Today gold is 1650 so that would have been a 25+% return on my investment. But I decided that I might get burned if I bought at a price that was too high, and instead I invested in the stock market on the advice of a professional, and we had a 500 point drop in the S&P today.

I've learned my lesson.




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