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Post 40

Thursday, June 2, 2005 - 1:10amSanction this postReply
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Andre,

Disclaimer: I find you, on balance, to be a great asset to SOLOHQ. I find your intentions to be noble. You have a certain straightforwardness that is certainly beneficent and complimentary to other contributors here ...

... but I, like Michael, have to take you to task here:

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"I've never yet seen a discussion forum which didn't describe itself, and sincerely believe itself, to be extremely tolerant and open to dissent."
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True, but irrelevant. The definition of a "justified forum" already contains aspects of tolerance. Intolerance of opposing views--entails the lewd contradictory concept of a non-forum; ie. indoctrinatory dogmatism. This view has no cognitive ground to stand on (and, therefore, no morally prescriptive status).


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"I've never yet seen a forum where someone was improperly banned, and a mob of its members didn't immediately, enthusiastically chime in that such a banning was proper and just, and that the individual should have been banned long ago."
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Andre, when you say "improperly banned," then you have already committed a beg-the-question fallacy. The concept of "improperly" already implies objective recognition of a mistake--a mistake that begs for rationalization. In other words, you (if your criticism is to be taken sincerely) must state your argument for an "improper banning" first--and only then may you proceed toward moral judgment of the banning, per se.


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"I've never yet seen a forum where such bannings weren't occasions for assiduous sycophancy by mediocrities to the banning authorities."
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Andre, you bring up a great point about group-think (collectivism), but your mere appeal to personal experience limits the moral (prescription-bearing) weight of your words. In effect you are saying that, because others have faulted before, then SOLOHQ can't be right in this particular instance (ie. because errors have occurred before--rational solution, in this context, is impossible).

Again, I appreciate your candor and insight--I just feel that your words here were more reactionary (rightfully against collectivism) and less contextually-absolute, or less objectively-beneficent, to put a fine point on it.

Ed






Post 41

Saturday, June 4, 2005 - 7:46pmSanction this postReply
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I wouldn't normally direct folk to a hostile site, but an eloquent footnote to this thread can be found at:

http://theautonomist.com/autonomist/articles7/homo2.html

This is classic rationalism, worse even than Regi's ignorant essays on the subject. But more, it bespeaks a tragedy & a hope. Master Stolyarov is evidently much younger than we realised. The hope is that he'll outgrow the ridiculous, comic-arrogant persona he has adopted; the tragedy is that he adopted it in the first place ... while regarding it as Objectivist.

Linz

Post 42

Saturday, June 4, 2005 - 9:27pmSanction this postReply
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Linz,

I did follow your link to Stoly's homo diatribe. It was hard to read past this:

"The philosopher Reginald Firehammer... contends that deliberate “repression” of desires to have intercourse is not at all improper, but rather a necessity for moral conduct."

But I did struggle through to the end.

He didn't actually SAY god punishes homosexual behavior.....

But:

"Thus, if reason proves that homosexuality is indeed self-destructive, it is morally incumbent upon the practitioners to repress the desire to engage in such conduct. "

Now, there's a "Sense of Life" for you. You homos just wrap barbed wire around your bodies under your clothes and go stand in a corner.

One thing that baffled me was his argument about homosexuals and guilt. Why would a homosexual feel guilty about enjoying sex and and heterosexual not feel guilty? He's stating this as a given. How does he know anyway? Pure crap. The whole thing is about the weakest rationalization I've ever read.

Post 43

Saturday, June 4, 2005 - 9:48pmSanction this postReply
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Actually, I strongly urge everyone to read this essay as an object lesson in rationalism—deduction devoid of induction (more accurately in this case, in defiance ofinduction)—and the appallingly twisted views it can lead to. In a sense, Stoly is more admirable than Regi, in that he honestly, unabashedly advocates what Regi merely skirted dishonestly around: abstinence & repression. He states quite brazenly that for a gay to *act on* his inclinations is immoral. (Not to act on them in a promiscuous, indiscriminate, unsafe, mindless way, mark you, but to act on them *at all*!) Regi went back & forth on that like a flea in a fart. But these are simply quibbles about degrees of awfulness. I shudder to think of these travesties going out in the name of a philosophy for living on earth.

Linz

Post 44

Saturday, June 4, 2005 - 9:57pmSanction this postReply
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Linz,

I tried to read that thing, but I gave up the first time and just threw in the towel once again. I did try though. The guy simply bores me to tears.

Solo is harshly criticized and severely blamed on that site for moderating and banning posters, but I think back then you guys came close to suffering dire consequences from practicing Sanction of the Victim (due to trying to be too fair). I made a semi-comic scenario in another thread I want to repeat in this context:

You set up a discussion forum to advance Objectivist ideas. You make it open to all, however you publicly mention that the purpose is to discuss Objectivism. A poster starts posting many, many articles, poems, posts, etc., vastly more than any ten posters combined, claiming to be an Objectivist - even quoting Ayn Rand, but holding that only sex in monogamous marriage is moral and homosexuality is immoral, defending government prohibition of euthanasia as moral, and various other positions contrary to Objectivism. You let him continue without saying anything. Your site dies a painful but boring death.

One more victim sanctioned out of its misery...
Michael



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Post 45

Saturday, June 4, 2005 - 10:31pmSanction this postReply
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Michael - we've already relitigated whether we were too lenient/too tough etc.. As always, hindsight is a wonderful thing, as is an armchair when one is not the referee or a protagonist. Somewhere, in response to one of these blow-ups I wrote a piece musing about the impossibility of exercising even a modicum of moderation, let alone the prerogative of banning, to everyone's satisfaction. I'll see if I can dig it out, since it was before your time. In the meantime, on the basis of "Know thine enemy" I suggest persevering with that essay. You VILL read effry last vert off it unt you vill learn from it!

(Actually, note that he's dropped "filosofer" etc?!)

Post 46

Sunday, June 5, 2005 - 3:57amSanction this postReply
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Here's the post/article I referred to. I was being attacked at the time for being too lenient with Orion Reasoner. Note that in the discussion thread, I stated my view that Orion (not his real name) was mentally ill. His current posts on the Firehammer site show conclusively that this is so.

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Of Orion, Islam ... and the Contest of Ideas
by Lindsay Perigo


With respect to my reluctance to ban Orion Reasoner from SOLOHQ because of his apparent advocacy of the proactive extermination of all Muslims, Barbara Branden wrote:

"If Orion had advocated killing all blacks, or killing all homosexuals, would you still say that the issue is freedom of speech, or would you say that you would not give him a platform on which to advocate such a monstrosity?"

The question drops the context in which Orion did this (or appeared to do it). If blacks or gays had attacked the Twin Towers, & if certain of their spokesman had gloated about it & threatened more, & if that threat were being daily made good in *other* countries, & someone who in most other respects had an unimpeachable record on this forum suddenly started saying, "Don't you see?! They're *all* in on it, & if we don't eliminate *all* of them they'll eliminate us," I'd say the person was paranoid & delusional & I'd try to make him see sense, rather than condemn & ban him. I don't think Orion is bad; I think he's grossly over-wrought. I'd like to lead him to understand that he's *not* alone in his contempt for Islam, nor in his exhortations to the West to hunt down & destroy the vermin terrorists as aggressively as possible (as well as fighting an unabashed propaganda war that refused to countenance the lethal fiction that any part of Islam is benign). I'd like to have the opportunity to persuade him that *there* we must stop, that the fact that the religion is vicious doesn't mean that every Muslim is vicious, that most are like the majority of people of all religions (all of which are also vicious), who really just want to live their lives in peace. I would remind him that at minimum, Objectivism requires that we do not initiate force against people because of their ideas.

Our ultimate battle is in the field of ideas. Truth to tell, we have to fight some of Bush's ideas just as vehemently as Islamic ones. My support for him in the recent election was contextual. Now that he's safely back, & can do all the things James mentions in his article here tonight, those of us who value reason & freedom must focus on precisely those things that stopped many of us from supporting him *at all*. The most important thing, contextually, this election was not to surrender the White House to a Saddamite. Kerry *was* a Saddamite - "wrong war, wrong place, wrong time." He was/is a piece of putrid excrement. To contemplate him rouses me to heights of loathing that would make even Orion blush. Thankfully, Kerry lost. Bush won. Not just the White House, but Congress. He can get on & do the good part of his agenda unimpeded. *We* must support him in that, while trying to stop him doing the bad part. This is not a tangent; its relevance to this discussion is - if Dubya were on this Forum pushing the bad part, we wouldn't say, "You're evil, begone!" since we recognise him as good, but misguided on those matters. We'd try to win him over. At this point, I'm still prepared to treat Orion the same way. (Moot, of course, since he's removed himself.)

This is separate from the issue Mr. Bisno addresses on this thread, at least implicitly, which is the case of someone quite consciously, conscientiously evil. Even in those cases, I think I'd be prepared to hear the person out & let a contest ensue ... to the point where it was clear that he'd lost. Then I'd boot his ass to the moon. The closest to this that has actually occurred was the case of Stolyarov, whose appalling totalitarian agenda kinda crept up on us, then got well & truly trounced. Even then, we merely placed him under moderation, & he finally skulked away of his own accord.

The long & the short of this is that I have no perfect answer - but I'm always going to err on the side of the open exchange of ideas, even though I'm under no obligation to. We've all always known that upholding freedom of expression means upholding that freedom for its least attractive practitioners, as Ayn Rand once put it. Occasionally one of these might show up on SOLOHQ. It won't kill us to engage him, for as long as it suits our selfish purposes.

And I don't put Orion in that category.

Linz






 

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Post 47

Monday, June 6, 2005 - 4:26pmSanction this postReply
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OK Linz,

I read Stoly's article in greater depth. (yawn.) Actually I skimmed over some of his "facts." His basic tripod premise, that homosexuality is chosen, that it is physically harmful and that it is morally harmful, is so boneheaded that the positions do not need refutation.

But on the first premise, I have a personal story to relate and an homage I would like to pay.
I have always shunned overbroad categories on issues like homosexuality. I never think just "gay." I always think, which type of gay? Some homosexuals are innately homo from birth and some choose later from life's experiences (especially traumas). I believe that others simply try it and like it - I have known some men and women in the porn industry in Brazil who claimed that. (No, I never did porn, although I did dub some professionally at one time.) Of the innate type, I sincerely believe that just as some people are born tall and others short, some left-handed and some right, it is not only possible to be born with an "inclination" toward homosexuality, it is also possible for a woman's spirit to be born into a man's body and vice versa. I have known such people. So much for Stoly's first premise. But still, I would like to illustrate.

I had a close Brazilian friend, Vicente Cechelero, now deceased, who I believe was a woman born into a man's body. (I have always had very talented and intelligent gay people around me all my life, although I am not gay.) He was a brilliant poet. His first book of poetry (Só Matéria do Mundo) won every prestigious prize that Brazil offers its artists, including the Olavo Bilac prize of the Brazilian Academy of Literature. In Brazil, this is more or less equivalent to winning the Pulitzer prize.

One poem I liked so much that he dedicated it to me (among several others), Deitei-me na Casa de Prometeu (I Laid Down in the House of Prometheus). Another poem, Está Morrendo uma Língua (A Language is Dying), starts with the dying of the language human beings use use to communicate, then with the act of communication itself between human beings, then with communication between humans and the very reality they live in, illustrating massive destruction by the image of a phallic mushroom cloud from an atomic bomb ripping open the anus of God. Despite the almost comical aspect of this image stated in this context, in the poem it was extremely powerful, conveying the horror of what happens when man abandons the world to those who would kill his spirit. Now who but a male homosexual could come up with an image like that?

I never did get him into the works of Ayn Rand, though I tried. He was always more interested in Brazilian and Portuguese authors. He was more intimate with the Portuguese language than any other Brazilian I knew.

Vicente was always troubled about his homosexual nature and told me several stories about his infancy. His father's name was Delírio, which in Portuguese means something more akin to "ecstasy" than "delirium." Nonetheless, that is one hell of a name for anyone's father, even in Brazil.

One day, when he was six years old, his father was sleeping on a hammock in the country. Vicente had been thinking about breasts from watching his mother breast-feed one of his siblings. Then he saw his father sleeping. His rationale was that if you put you mouth on your mother's breast as a baby, what about your father, from where life itself springs? (Most learn the birds and the bees very early in Brazil.) So, while his father was sleeping, he unzipped his father's pants and started fooling around with his penis. His father, coming out of sleep to that kind of pleasure, looked down and saw to his horror that it was his son. There was no discussion. He went and got his revolver and took out after Vicente, who's mother had to hide him to keep him from being shot - literally. Other family members had to take him in because his own father would have nothing to do with him for years after that.

Now how on earth is a six year old going to rationally choose something like what Vicente did?

In the end, after a tortured life of constant doubts and guilt and some brilliant poetry, Vicente died because of his inner conflict about his homosexuality. He was never effeminate. He dressed like a normal hetero man. But he was a woman inside. This manifested itself in his need to seduce mostly married men and he was strictly passive.

He once told me that he had introduced making love to men to somewhere about 800 married men after I, rather tastelessly in my own fashion, asked him how many cherries he had popped. (Incidentally, that included about 7 or 8 Protestant preachers.) I believed him because I saw him change boyfriends constantly. Most were first-time married men I presume, because the ones he introduced me to were somewhat embarrassed to be talking to me in his presence and they did not behave as normal Brazilian gay men do.

Finally, trying to get the female inside him out onto his body, he started taking hormone injections to increase his butt size and grow female-size breasts. His heart did not withstand the strain and he died of a heart attack while still in his forties.

(Note to the curious. Actually Vicente told me much of this - and more - trying to get into my own pants. I believe that for a long time he was in love with me. But I loved him like a brother and I wasn't going for it anyway. He always used to brag to his friends that I was his "healthy" friendship side.)

How I so wish that something like Solo had been around when Vicente was alive. I sincerely believe that it would have been a lifesaver to him and he would still be among us. He craved being accepted on a nonsexual basis and being appreciated intellectually by others who were intelligent and talented and didn't always put sexuality in first place. In Brazil, there is nothing like Solo I am aware of.

Anyway, to sum up, Stoly is more full of shit than a Christmas turkey. Most queers don't choose to be queers. Vicente's life is empirical proof to me, as if that were needed.

And as for Vicente, I really miss him. A lot.

Michael


Post 48

Monday, June 6, 2005 - 9:57pmSanction this postReply
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Michael, I don't think you intend the following quote to have a mystical tinge, but it does:

it is also possible for a woman's spirit to be born into a man's body
I thought about this issue when the Jeanine Ring fiasco was underway.  My own view is that transgenderism is a psychological condition, irreversible perhaps, which in some cases can only be alleviated by the person undergoing an artificial procedure of some kind to give them characteristics of the opposite sex for their peace of mind.  Just as some people sincerely believe that they are being controlled by aliens, and are otherwise often decent and intelligent people, so can someone believe that they are a gender that they are not.  My heart goes out to these people, because I know they struggle deeply with these issues.  If I ever personally met someone who had undergone such a change, I would treat them as the gender they wished to be seen as.   


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Post 49

Monday, June 6, 2005 - 11:26pmSanction this postReply
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Pete,

I appreciate you sentiments about respecting people with this condition. I consider someone like Vicente sort of like a midget, giant, person with 6 toes or whatever. Some might call this a freak, but I don't. I call it exceptional. Nature's variety principle. Chance becoming manifest. For as much as a biological species will have certain norms, there will always be exceptions.

I find the term "psychological problem" to be a euphemism and derogatory. What we are addressing is so more than that. A person with a "psychological problem" for me is someone like Stoly. He is someone who needs to seriously think through his misunderstood arbitrary premises and undergo therapy to loosen up.

People like Vicente have a biological condition. A woman's spirit was born into a man's body. That might cause a "psychological problem," but the root is not psychological. It is biological. And it is not a problem. It is a condition. (As a matter of fact, it was Vicente who taught me that - and he was always quite adamant about it.)

Your mystic comment on spirit should be thought about with a great deal of care. I was not using the word in the Christian sense. There is definitely a male "mindset," "spirit," "soul," "character," or whatever else you want to call it, just as there is a female one.

In the culture here in the USA that I encountered on coming back, I found a lot of doublethink due to political correctness. A is not A, if you will. A man cannot think and act like a male without being called sexist. You can't call a black person black without being thought of as a racist. The list goes on and on. So the easy way out is to pretend that these differences do not exist. But facts don't go away just because you don't talk about them or think about them anymore.

A consciousness is a part of a newborn, but it is undeveloped. So is undeveloped "maleness" and "femaleness." The mind-brain part of this is what I mean by "spirit." I think the idea of a sexless consciousness that grows genitals as it gets older a robotic and not an organic concept. In a newborn, the genitals are there waiting to grow just as much as a sexual consciousness is.

Thus an undeveloped "female consciousness" (since you don't like the "s" word) will develop into an adult female personality - biologically and not just psychologically. Even if the person is a paralytic. If this female consciousness is trapped into a male body by an accident of nature, there will be a conflict of the body developing one way and the sexual identity developing in another, not because of any "psychological problem," but because of normal biological growth.

I see nothing really to pity here, either. A person with this condition accepts his/her birthright and makes the best of it - just like we all do with our own limitations. I need glasses, for example. Gotta deal with it. Life's a bitch sometimes.

If anyone should be pitied, it should be those short-sighted prudish knuckleheads like Stoly writing half-assed articles on things they know absolutely know nothing about and proudly flaunting their own ignorance as being "rational."

Michael


Post 50

Tuesday, June 7, 2005 - 4:09amSanction this postReply
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And as for Jeanine, she has gone thru such a physiological changing, and for the past month or so has been healing....  in truth, one is what one makes oneself to be.....

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Post 51

Tuesday, June 7, 2005 - 7:34amSanction this postReply
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Michael wrote:

"If anyone should be pitied, it should be those short-sighted prudish knuckleheads like Stoly writing half-assed articles on things they know absolutely know nothing about and proudly flaunting their own ignorance as being 'rational.'"

Very well said. They are moral pygmies who would embarrass the crassest Christian fundamentalist with the boorish bigotry of their ignorance. They are the the sexual Ku Klux Klanners who would insist on cat-calling a transgender person "Mr" precisely because of the pain they knew that would cause, and not rest till they'd drummed her out. We've had our share of them—God knows what brought them here. I don't "pity" them however—I hold them in contempt for their wilful contribution to human suffering. It's good that they've all repaired to the phascist swamp, where they can buzz around like mosquitoes with malaria for their own inverted edification.

Linz



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