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Friday, October 8, 2004 - 6:20pmSanction this postReply
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Thanks again for another quote, Peter. Can you provide information about who is Adam Mossoff and what is "Immanuel Kant's Gimmick?"

Post 1

Saturday, October 9, 2004 - 6:16amSanction this postReply
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The Critique is 856 pages in the first edition and 884 in the second. If Mossoff couldn't even get the number of pages correct, what chance is there that he got Kant right? Just asking.

Fred

Post 2

Saturday, October 9, 2004 - 4:31pmSanction this postReply
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"The Critique is 856 pages in the first edition and 884 in the second. If Mossoff couldn't even get the number of pages correct, what chance is there that he got Kant right?"

Well, having engaged with both Mossoff and Fred writing about Kant (and compared them both against the original) I'd say there's a better chance with the former than the latter. Tee hee.

Michelle, you asked who and where: Adam Mossoff is an ARI lecturer, and you can find his taped lecture at the Ayn Rand Bookstore. His point about Kant's gimmick  ...    


<spoiler>


... is that his system conflates the 'how' with the 'what.'


Post 3

Saturday, October 9, 2004 - 5:45pmSanction this postReply
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Here is Karl Popper's explanation of why thousands came to the funeral of Kant. "They came to show their gratitude to a teacher of the Rights of Man, of equality before the law, of world citizenship, of peace on earth, and perhaps most important, of emancipation through knowledge."

Conjecture and Refutations, p. 175

Fred

Post 4

Saturday, October 9, 2004 - 6:42pmSanction this postReply
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And here is Adam Mossoff's explanation (paraphrased) of why Rand and many Objectivists commonly describe Kant as "the most evil man in mankind's history": It is because the acceptance of his ideas and their development by those who followed him led to the destruction of human values on a massive scale.

And here is Ayn Rand's explanation, from the September 1971 The Objectivist:
 
Suppose you met a twisted, tormented young man and, trying to understand his behavior, discovered that he was brought up by a man-hating monster who worked systematically to paralyze his mind, destroy his self-confidence, obliterate his capacity for enjoyment and undercut his every attempt to escape. You would realize that nothing could be done with or for that young man and nothing could be expected of him until he was removed from the monster's influence.
Western civilization is in that young man's position. The monster is Immanuel Kant.

... Kant was opposed in his time and thereafter, but his opponents adopted a kind of [conservative] method: they conceded all his basic premises and fought him on inconsequential details. He won - by default and with their help... All the irrational twistings of contemporary philosophy are Kantian in origin. The ultimate result is the present state of the world.

... You will find that on every fundamental issue, Kant's philosophy is the exact opposite of Objectivism. You may also find it hard to believe that anyone could advocate the things Kant is advocating. If you doubt it, I suggest you look up the references given [i
n Leonard Peikoff's article 'Kant and Self-Sacrifice' which follows hers] and read the original works Do not seek to escape the subject by thinking: "Oh, Kant didn't mean it!" He did.

 
(And I did mean to quote Rand. Tee hee.)

And here's what Leonard Peikoff said in 'Fact and Value' (which well is a little poisoned, I concede - but not on this point):

Since dedication to reality is the essence of the moral and of the practical, the false qua false is precisely the intolerable. (In what form a boss should express his intolerance to his employee depends on the full context.)

Now consider the case of Kant, whom I take to be the negative counterpart of Ayn Rand. To anyone capable of understanding Kant's ideas, the first thing to say about them is: "false." But implicit in the all-embracing war on reality they represent is a second verdict: "wicked." The cause of such ideas has to be methodical, lifelong intellectual dishonesty; the effect, when they are injected into the cultural mainstream, has to be mass death. There can be no greater evasion than the open, total rejection of reality undertaken as a lifetime crusade. And only evasion on this kind of scale, evasion as the motor of an entire philosophic system, makes possible and necessary all the atrocities of our age. (For details, see The Ominous Parallels.)

Whoever understands the Critiques, yet urges "toleration" of Kant (or his ilk), or tells us to practice cognition on his ideas but not moral evaluation, has rejected self-preservation as a goal. He has rejected the principle of justice and the entire realm of moral value. He has said that man's life or death should not be a ruling concern in anyone's mind.

In the final issue of The Objectivist, Ayn Rand described Kant as "the most evil man in mankind's history." She said it knowing full well that, apart from his ideas, Kant's actions were unexceptionable, even exemplary. Like Ellsworth Toohey, he was a peaceful citizen, a witty lecturer, a popular dinner guest, a prolific writer. She said it because of what Kant wrote — and why — and what it would have to do to mankind. She held that Kant was morally much worse than any killer, including Lenin and Stalin (under whom her own family died), because it was Kant who unleashed not only Lenin and Stalin, but also Hitler and Mao and all the other disasters of our disastrous age. Without the philosophic climate Kant and his intellectual followers created, none of these disasters could have occurred; given that climate, none could have been averted.

Popper, and Popperians, just didn't know the man to whom they were "show[ing] their gratitude." They philosophically disarmed themselves; that's no reason that we who know better should do likewise.

(Edited by Peter Cresswell on 10/09, 6:43pm)


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Post 5

Saturday, October 9, 2004 - 9:32pmSanction this postReply
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Peter quotes Peikoff:

"She [Ayn Rand]held that Kant was morally much worse than any killer, including Lenin and Stalin (under whom her own family died), because it was Kant who unleashed not only Lenin and Stalin, but also Hitler and Mao and all the other disasters of our disastrous age. Without the philosophic climate Kant and his intellectual followers created, none of these disasters could have occurred; given that climate, none could have been averted."

See, this is the part of the orthodoxy's view I struggle with. I don't doubt that the standard interpretation of Kant that Peter, Tibor & others have been defending here is correct ... but to move from that interpretation to describe Kant as "the most evil man in history" is *way* out of whack. First, there's no indication that Kant had the remotest idea that the widespread acceptance & application of his ideas would lead to Soviet Russia & Nazi Germany, gulags & concentration camps. Indeed, for all his horrible "duty" ethic, he still held that each individual was an end in himself, *not* to be sacrificed for collectivist ends. Second, he didn't *force* anyone to accept his ideas, nor did he "unleash" something that was inexorable. As Objectivists who believe in free will, we must assume that those who *did* accept his ideas were free *not* to, since he most certainly wasn't around to hold a gun to their heads. Third, if you're going to go down the blame-the-philosopher-who-influenced-them route, the men who arguably *were* the most evil men in history - Hitler & Stalin - were more influenced as far as I know by Hegel & Marx (& maybe Nietzsche in Hitler's case) than by Kant.

Rand's view requires us to believe that if we took Kant out of the equation, Nazi Germany & Soviet Russia wouldn't have happened. That's absurd on its face. It also requires us to believe that he went ahead & wrote the Critique & all the rest believing & viciously hoping that they *would* lead to tyranny & concentration camps. That's absurd too.

As the one who wrote the original "Kant Can't," which Mr. Cresswell has found enormously suggestive in finding titles for his *own* articles :-), it should be apparent that I'm no apologist for the noumenal/phenomenal distinction, Kant's self-described "Copernican revolution" in epistemology, the duty ethic or anything else that one associates (if one is not Fred) with Kant; but "the most evil man in history"?? If I recall correctly, Rand/Galt said that the biggest evil was the initiation of force. Kant never initiated force against anyone. Nor did he consciously, explicitly, directly advocate such a thing. Quite the contrary - act in such a way that if everyone else emulated you, peace & harmony would be the result.

In judging someone to be evil, let alone the most evil person ever, we must have evidence of motive & intent at the very least. And there surely must have been at least *some* actual force-initiation by the person so deemed?

Linz

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Saturday, October 9, 2004 - 11:59pmSanction this postReply
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Linz, you wrote:

"In judging someone to be evil, let alone the most evil person ever, we must have evidence of motive & intent at the very least. And there surely must have been at least *some* actual force-initiation by the person so deemed?"

I fully agree with you, and I think the orthodox Objectivist view is tremendously unjust. They could have as easily -- more easily -- have chosen Plato, who explicitly advocated dictatorship, was prepared to outlaw art, and messed up epistemology as disastrously as Kant ever did. And Hegel was not exactly a benefactor of mankind.

Barbara


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Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 8:15amSanction this postReply
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Lindsay,

Hegel could not have done it without Kant. If you want to fight Hegel's ideas, you need to fight the Kantian basis of his ideas.  Kant was a turning point in the progress of Western philosophy, but the fact that he still held on to some positive enlightenment ideas makes him worse, because he knew what he was giving up.

As far as the Orthodoxy goes, I think that declaring "Kant is the most evil man in human history" is not going to undo the influence of his ideas. So it's good to see that Adam Mossoff, (who is a real-life professor of law), is offering a detailed analysis of Kant's gimmick. For an audio presentation it's also affordable, only $12.95.

Michael Newberry's analysis of Kant's views on Esthetics on this forum is another example of the type of work that can be done and I hope Michael turns it into an lecture or an article.

-- Michelle

P.S. It's also good to see that quoting Peikoff favorably is allowed on this Forum.


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Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 8:58amSanction this postReply
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Linz wrote:
>See, this is the part of the orthodoxy's view I struggle with....Rand's view requires us to believe that if we took Kant out of the equation, Nazi Germany & Soviet Russia wouldn't have happened. That's absurd on its face. It also requires us to believe that he went ahead & wrote the Critique & all the rest believing & viciously hoping that they *would* lead to tyranny & concentration camps. That's absurd too.

I think the explanation may be that rather than philosophising, she is unconsciously *novelising* - looking for a Moriarty for her narrative, rather than at the actual situation. You can take the girl out of Hollywood...

Peter wrote:
>Popper, and Popperians, just didn't know the man to whom they were "show[ing] their gratitude." They philosophically disarmed themselves; that's no reason that we who know better should do likewise.

Now that's fightin' talk...;-). I'll chime in briefly on this one.

Popper writes quite a bit about Kant. When he does, he quotes extensively, gives detailed analysis of the historical background and the particular philosophical problems Kant was trying to solve with his system, examines other thinkers' reactions and criticisms of him, and painstakingly points out where he thinks Kant failed and where he succeeded.

Nothing could stand in greater contrast with this approach than Rand's. On the basis of her writings, Nathaniel Branden's claim that she never even read Kant is perfectly credible. She writes scantily about him, (almost) never quotes, relies on obscure second-hand sources, never gives details, never explains the problems themselves nor the context - yet somehow feels that by this process she has amassed enough evidence to call him the greatest "criminal" in mankind's history!

Thus, the idea that readers of Rand could, by this same strange process, somehow come to "know better" about Kant than Popper, or readers of Popper, seems highly unlikely.

Barbara wrote:
>I think...the orthodox Objectivist view is tremendously unjust. They could have as easily -- more easily -- have chosen Plato...and Hegel....

Y'know, someone should really get around to writing a devastating, original, clearly written, witty, iconoclastic, yet exhaustively scholarly exploration of the deep roots of Marxism and Fascism in both those thinkers...;-)

- Daniel





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Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 12:22pmSanction this postReply
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Thank you Michelle,

 

And I agree with your point on Kant being the "turning point" of Western thought, at least, in the area that I am familiar with, his aesthetic thought.

 

I think Rand's view of the evil of Kant is a moral one. And by his aesthetic theory I agree with her assessment. No, I don't think he should have been strung up but I do think he should have been disposed of long ago, through rigorous philosophical argument...as Stephen Hicks and many others are doing now.

 

Michelle, I will do better than an article about Kant, Stephen and my book on Postmodern Art, should hit on Kant's key points, from a reason orientated perspective. We will place his thought as well as other postmodern thinkers and postmodern artists into a historical context. Showing that the artists have, early on, exhausted applied PM aesthetics and that without an integrated view of art their art and ideas lead nowhere, i.e. to nihilism.  Right now Postmodern artists are backtracking back to art, they are turning their backs on Nihilism and attempting to integrated Postmodernism with representational art  For example, the utterly mangled form, like the Chapmans' sculpture cast of two porno inflatable plastic life-sized dolls enjoying a "69" embrace.

 

Michael

(Edited by Newberry on 10/10, 5:46pm)


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Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 5:16pmSanction this postReply
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Post 11

Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 5:22pmSanction this postReply
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Michelle - you wrote:

"Hegel could not have done it without Kant. If you want to fight Hegel's ideas, you need to fight the Kantian basis of his ideas."

I think Hegel *could* have done it without Kant, & he certainly thought of himself as straightening Kant out rather than echoing him. But that's not my point here. As Barbara intimates, you might just as well say, "Kant could not have done it without Plato." Do we then brand Plato the most evil person in history? I don't see how *either* of them could be so demonised, for the reasons I already stated with respect to Kant.

You say, "As far as the Orthodoxy goes, I think that declaring 'Kant is the most evil man in human history' is not going to undo the influence of his ideas. So it's good to see that Adam Mossoff, (who is a real-life professor of law), is offering a detailed analysis of Kant's gimmick. For an audio presentation it's also affordable, only $12.95."

I have Mossoff's tape, & it's very good. But again I say: doesn't mean Kant was the most evil person ever. To make such a statement shows moral hysteria & a singular lack of perspective that undermines one's credibility when faulting Kant where he *should* be faulted. 

And you said: "P.S. It's also good to see that quoting Peikoff favorably is allowed on this Forum."

To pretend Peikoff didn't exist would be ... er, Peikovian. And Peikovians we ain't! :-)

Linz


Post 12

Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 8:31pmSanction this postReply
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Lindsay,

I also think it's counter-productive to invest strong emotions in denouncing Kant as the most evil man in human history.  Does it really matter who wins in this contest, Kant, Marx or Stalin?  It's much more efficient to disprove Kant's ideas calmly and dispassionately.  Still, reading briefly in the CPR one cannot avoid noticing the pathological sickness of a supreme intellect turned against itself. 

You said that Hegel could do it without Kant - I doubt it.  Hegel went further and more boldly than Kant, but he could do it because Kant undermined the enlightenment enough to make someone like Hegel possible. 

-- Michelle



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Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 12:01pmSanction this postReply
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Peter,

Thank you for Post #4. I haven't looked at that issue of the Objectivist in years. I think I will re-read it and maybe submit a "Peikoff on Kant" --I do agree with Linz and Barbara but would go further (no surprise.) Calling a thinker evil sounds too close to the idea of evil thoughts. And there are no evil thought, Christ to the contrary notwithstanding. Maybe this has something to do with my Millian approach to Kant, and other giants in the tradition. (Although I don't know if I agree with Nietzsche that we learn more from the mistakes of giants than from the truths of little men.) Kant is valuable to us Objectivists for two reasons: (1) even if he is completely wrong (whatever that might mean) we deepen our own understanding of Rand every time we defend her. That's pure Mill of course. It also separates us from that jerks who claim that Kant is the most evil man but have never read a word by Kant (Kelley's point in Contested Legacy) (2) Let assume for the moment that Kant is Rand's antipode. Well, we want to beat the absolute best from "the other side" so to speak. (NB. I don't approach philosophy that way--I see is as Adler does, a great conversation--but that's me) You wouldn't think much of a heavyweight boxer who demonstrated his prowess by beating the hell out of a 5 year old girl. You would want him to fight the best contender. If we triumph over Kant--hell that's the equivalent of the lights of New York going out in Atlas. I find little joy in beating up on mini-Kantians. This point I got from Kelley.



Fred

Post 14

Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 12:23pmSanction this postReply
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Help. I'm worried. I'm agreeing with Fred.

Send laudanum! :-)


Post 15

Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 12:41pmSanction this postReply
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Haha, I also was amused by your post Fred.

You wrote: "And there are no evil thought..."

Funny that I disagree with that. I am sure there are no evil emotions..."damn I want to kill Fred every time he posts!" Just an example...I am sure we agree that actions can be evil, i.e. killing Fred?

Now what catagory is a book I write on art instruction that systematically purposefully misleads students to dead ends...that the application of any of my suggestions theories is in fact the opposite of the stated goals of learning?

That is not the same thing as a "thought" in my head. Educational misdirection, is that an action? In any case I think there many examples of manipulation of knowledg that is actually anti-knowledge. I think that is evil. Desciptions of con-artists are good examples. Just today on the news I heard a "scientific moment" on a Christian radio station about the physical developement of flight in insects...hence "the existence of an all-knowing being who knew all about flight in the first place."
That goes somewhere in the lesser plains of Dante's Inferno.


Post 16

Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 3:24pmSanction this postReply
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"And there are no evil thought..."

Funny that I disagree with that. I am sure there are no evil emotions
It just occurred to be that the "evil thought" and "evil emotion" doctrines are designed to staunch "evil talk" (backbiting.) That and badgering.


Post 17

Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 6:40pmSanction this postReply
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Barbara,

Your objection to the demonization of Kant is noted.  And I agree.  Plato came much earlier, and he basically preached the "otherworldly" mentality that Kant would much later use.

And I'm not sure I would call them "orthodox Objectivists", but I guess that's a fine description.  From my perspective, given their relation to the evolution of Objectivism as a later entity, I would call the original Objectivists "Proto-Objectivists".


Post 18

Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 7:50pmSanction this postReply
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" Hegel went further and more boldly than Kant, but he could do it because Kant undermined the enlightenment enough to make someone like Hegel possible. "

I'm skeptical that you would need Kant to have Hegel, seeing as Hegel has a much more blatantly obvious influence in his writings-- whenever I read the man, I get the distinct impression that I'm reading someone who desperately, desperately, wants to be Plato 2.0.

Post 19

Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 5:50amSanction this postReply
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I'm skeptical that you would need Kant to have Hegel, seeing as Hegel has a much more blatantly obvious influence in his writings-- whenever I read the man, I get the distinct impression that I'm reading someone who desperately, desperately, wants to be Plato 2.0.

My point was that Kant made the intellectual milieu receptive to someone who wanted to be Plato 2.0  He infused the intellectual atmosphere with skepticism, undermining the Aristotelian foundation of the enlightenment, so it was possible for anybody to step in with any non-Aristotelian ideas. 

(Edited by Michelle Cohen on 10/13, 5:51am)


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