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Post 20

Wednesday, February 13, 2013 - 1:35pmSanction this postReply
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Dean, Fred won't bite, but, me... I'm venomous :-)
Fred, you make straw arguments and refer to what other people think. I look at physical evidence and think for myself.
Anyone who 'thinks' Fred doesn't think for himself... Well, just isn't thinking.

When you say a person is making "straw arguments" you need to give a quote of the part of the argument you say is 'straw' and show that Fred threw it into the argument for the purpose of knocking it down and thus avoiding an actual issue. Otherwise, running around yelling, "Straw Arguments!" is just making bald assertions and even two year olds can make those.

And, there is nothing wrong to referring to what other people think as long as there is no implication that other peoples thoughts create or prove the truth, just by their existence - e.g., social metaphysics or Argumentum ad populum or appeal to authority. None of those fit Fred's posts.
(Edited by Steve Wolfer on 2/13, 1:37pm)


Post 21

Wednesday, February 13, 2013 - 3:56pmSanction this postReply
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Steve:

I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure Dean is pulling our leg, to make a point.

regards,
Fred

Post 22

Wednesday, February 13, 2013 - 4:11pmSanction this postReply
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There was something 'molten' pouring out of the building in those videos, and the suggestion was, that was molten steel.

Was it steel?

Here is some kid melting some plastic.



Any plastic around in those offices?

Doesn't seem too hard to create a stream of molten plastic...

But if I tell you it is molten steel, then you are going to see molten steel.

But..what was it?





Post 23

Wednesday, February 13, 2013 - 4:13pmSanction this postReply
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Fred...
I am pretty sure Dean is pulling our leg, to make a point.
Really??? That would be bizarre. If so, I've completely missed it. I wonder what the point would be. Maybe his next post will be that the whole thread, and the poll, was just a joke - but I don't think so.

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Post 24

Wednesday, February 13, 2013 - 5:28pmSanction this postReply
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Honestly when I first started looking into it this weekend, I thought it was ridiculous to disbelieve the official story.

I hadn't really thought about the twin towers or looked into the evidence myself. In 2001 I was in a completely different mindset. It was my freshmen year in college. I was transitioning from my raised-as-fundamentalist-Christian-yet-secretly-a-scientist, developing from there to a capitalist scientist, and in a philosophy class I found myself to agree the most with relativism/skepticism/postmodernism. Now I kind of see that stage as a self-attempt to wipe my mind clean, so that I could rebuild. It wasn't until 3 years later that I found Objectivism through Joe Rowland's essay on faith.

Anyways, back in 2001, I had a completely different world view. I thought that the Federal Government actually did positively impact my life. I didn't even think that professional criminal groups like the "mob" existed... that that stuff was just Hollywood.

Today my perspective of the world I live in has completely changed.
- The US government is a terribly corrupt institution that is capable of operating primarily through the enforcement of usage of its fiat currency (established via stealing gold, the past leading competitor currency to fiats). Americans slave to work for the dollar, and the government workers, federal reserve, and the federal reserve's friends all get to print all the money they want to spend on whatever they want. Trades are taxed on top of it. The government has its eyes on most all financial transactions in the US, they know the financial situation of pretty much everybody (to protect? us from money laundering). Might I recommend we rename USD to USM? United States Slave Money. Is there a need for me to name all of the atrocities the US government + Federal Reserve + Banks have done? Its massive printing and spending has stolen INCREDIBLE wealth from people who earned and saved resources. In fact, I can't imagine my life could be worse if the federal government and federal reserve didn't exist... since they only harm me. They only harm me.
- The media/TV is primarily focused on entertaining the leeches who sit around and watch TV rather than live their own lives. They use 1984 double speak through and through. Quantitative easing, freedom, rights... they (the media and corrupt guests/speakers) misconstrued the meanings of words to mislead the general American population who don't have the philosophical/mental care/capacity to decipher their meanings and intentions. Now we have all sorts of government programming and advertisements... financed by USM.

They only harm me. That's what they do. The federal government + federal reserve is a protection racket. The biggest one that has ever existed. Might I rename the pair the US Protection Racket (USPR).

So now, given this new world view, whenever the USPR does something, I look for how they screwed me over. Any actions the USPR took during 9/11 to hide evidence or prevent independent investigations, I think: the USPR is hiding stuff so it can screw me over more. 9/11 was an attack on some financial buildings (part of the USPR).

So now I look at those towers falling... and I see #7 falling just like a controlled demolition. And I see the twin towers falling just like controlled demolitions too, except planes crashed into them, and the explosives went off top to bottom instead of bottom up.

America's history isn't the wondrous boy scout innocent good country. Its full of corruption. Yea, some of the people have made some awesome technological and philosophical discoveries in America. And for some time we had been the most capitalist country ever in existence. But that is changing now. I'm not sure whether this is the best place to be anymore. There are other places in the world with less powerful protection rackets, full of citizens who actually recognize that their government is a protection racket.

Post 25

Thursday, February 14, 2013 - 12:02amSanction this postReply
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A fun entertaining mock of the official 9/11 story by James Corbett (YouTube)

Post 26

Thursday, February 14, 2013 - 1:23amSanction this postReply
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The US government is a terribly corrupt institution ... They only harm me. That's what they do.
There is a penalty a person pays for focusing to exclusively on the flaws in this country, and the fact that it is going in the wrong direction.

Our lives are ends in themselves and the purpose of living is to experience life as fully as possible - to be happy. Our emotions will end up clogged with anger, disgust and despair if we can't see anything but the disasters around us.

It is helpful to step back for a historical perspective. We have more freedom now than nearly any people at any time in human history, despite the losses that have been accruing in the last 100 years or so. The long term trend since we first began walking upright is a trend towards more awareness, more knowledge, and giving more value to human life and liberty.

And geographically, even through there are a few places that are enjoying more freedom than we are, most of the globe is still suffering far, far more than we are in this respect.

And philosophically and psychologically it is possible to be happy even under political circumstances far worse than ours today.

The key question will always be, "Can I find actions to take that will result in being happy?" Those of us who are brighter than the average bear, and focus on ideas and the state of things, as a result, acquire a responsibility to our-self to balance our focus. If we focus to much on the negatives, we pay an emotional price for it.

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Post 27

Thursday, February 14, 2013 - 2:48amSanction this postReply
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If we focus to much on the negatives, we pay an emotional price for it.
An emotional price huh? And what is the price of not putting any focus whatsoever on the negatives? Dude, I just recognized the federal government and federal reserve for what it actually is: a protection racket, and that is all you have to say?

Sure, we citizens can still strive to make enjoyable lives for ourselves and our loved ones despite the USPR. But that doesn't mean that we should ignore what the USPR does. One day it would be awesome if I could live in a place where the average citizen takes responsibility of his own resources and defense, rather then giving up all money storage, evidence collection, judiciary, and executionary roles to a protection racket.

Edit: Re: emotional price: I was literally sick on Monday (from realizations of some lies I've been fed, and re-evaluating my worldview) after a friend of mine gave me a little nudge and I fell down the rabbit hole. I couldn't eat, I tried drinking some water, and I couldn't keep the sip of water down! The good news is that I haven't been assassinated yet, despite making these surely undesired posts. There's actually a good deal of people who are speaking up now. Particularly due to the sandy hook police chase into the forest and the smiling "father" getting into a sad character for the cameras. Sandy hook was so botched, its as if they actually wanted to start a civil war, no?

At least now life is getting more interesting. Being a complacent pacifist slave was extremely boring.

Technical/Website issue: I've noticed using "Preview with Spell Check" is now frequently really really slow. So now I just use "Post/Preview".
(Edited by Dean Michael Gores on 2/14, 3:07am)


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Post 28

Thursday, February 14, 2013 - 5:06amSanction this postReply
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Dean:

I'm sort of involved in an old murder invesigation from 34 year ago. I'm writing a book about it. It was the daughter of an acquaintance, never been solved.

When I talk to investigators from the time, what is clear is, they angst over their -own- imperfections; did we screw it up? Did we miss something? Did we fatfinger some key piece of evidence? Because in their line of work, they investigate humans, and they come to learn a reality: humans are imperfect -no matter where you look-.

They learn that from endlessly looking. A murder occurs in a neighborhood-- it doesn't matter what kind of neighborhood it is -- and they start looking closely at the friends and neighbors, and what they find -- everywhere -- is imperfection. Dirty dealing. Lying. Cheating. Stealing. Secrets. Infidelity. Every vice known to mankind, sprinkled liberally throughout humanity. On average, we are average.

They sift through all that, trying to find a lying, cheating, stealing, secretive murderer. They are often well camouflaged among what is the normal background noise of everyday life in a definitely imperfect world.

And then, we build corporations, and schools, and churches, and governments, all from the same stuff. But so does the rest of the world. So did the communists. So is Al Quaeda.

So when we discover that fact about America, we should at least try not to see the world in binary colors, or through the filter of our childhood beliefs. It's fucked up, and we'd like it not to be fucked up. In each potential incident, such as 9/11, there is another glaring opportunity to discover imperfection, especially where we are predisposed to find it.

But when looking, we can't give up our cold reason. Fluid dynamics is fluid dynamics. It's not just for Ascher Shapiro's amazing blackboards. It's the very -reason- those planes could fly. People actually do understand and apply the physics. And things other than steel melt in a dramatic fashion.

The WTC towers were monumental architectural achievements, gravity defying constructs of exquisite reach. Two goddamned airliners crashed into them, and indeed, the tower that got hit last but lower fell before the tower that got hit first but higher. No building is designed to withstand that kind of structural damage, and certainly not those high reach towers, stretching the envelope of what man can imperfectly do.

Going back to the investigators on that murder investigation, the following floors me; as a child, I'd think that these various departments within the same police force would work with each other, and even, with other agencies, to get the job done. No, it is pretty much like every other on average we're average enterprise. Personalities dominate, fiefdoms are defended, walls are built, and peers backstab peers. Every investigation proceeds imperfectly, using an imperfect resource: mankind.

That is all a given. Here, in the former Soviet Union, in Kennedy's Cabinet, at the Mayo Clinic, and in municipal police departments. In every neighborhood in the world, in every stinking village, in every soaring city.

Our defenses prior to 9/11 were imperfect. Our preparedness for 9/11 was imperfect. The perps execution of 9/11 was imperfect(they wanted to hit the towers lower and have them topple immediately, killing 50000+.) Our immediate response to 9/11 was imperfect. Our investigation of 9/11 after the fact has been imperfect.

None of us has a crystal ball, so I'll go with the following. You don't have to go there with me, because you might well be right. Is it more likely that the one perfect human action in all of that was a plan so subtle in detail and so perfectly executed that the WTC towers were secretly pre-wired with explosives and thermite bombs, etc., and George Bush instructed CIA operatives to sock puppet these pilots into crashing into the WTC to mask their detonation and destruction, or is it more likely that the gain on our radar is turned up way too high on this event, and we see "free fall" limits that totally ignore the speed at which pressure waves propagate in air inside that steel shell tube, etc. Air is a well known, well understood, well studied, well modeled, and well covered by both experiment and theory compressible medium. The pressure wave represented by those falling floors propagated through the balance of the building at the speed of sound, at around 1100 ft/sec. Way faster than 'free fall' speed. The resulting pressure wave was well able to blow out the windows of the floors below. The observation that the towers did not collapse like children's building blocks tumbling into each other is an indictment only of our understanding of the physics of the event. The "free fallers" just sound totally silly to me.

Because 2% of us -- maybe -- remember some of that HS physics we might not even have once taken, or we Google something on the internet and grasp enough common sense physics to try to understand the collapse of those towers as if they were our childhood towers of building blocks, one free-falling on the other, and our imperfect models of reality lead us where we are disposed to want to go anyway?

What is the name of -this- website again? Has it been a stillbirth?

regards,
Fred



Post 29

Thursday, February 14, 2013 - 5:40amSanction this postReply
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(I have to go with the engineer on this one).


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Post 30

Thursday, February 14, 2013 - 7:57amSanction this postReply
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Steve: "If we focus to much on the negatives, we pay an emotional price for it."

Dean: "An emotional price huh? And what is the price of not putting any focus whatsoever on the negatives? Dude, I just recognized the federal government and federal reserve for what it actually is: a protection racket, and that is all you have to say?"

I know this isn't the topic of the thread, but I'm just going to think aloud on it, since it's been introduced, and a nerve has been hit that goes deeper than the conspiracy topic, or is the root of it...

Thinking about the question "how does one live rationally in an irrational society", a pat answer like being told to "keep a balance" can become a bit trite and unsatisfactory. (I think of Ron Merrill's discussion, in The Ideas of Ayn Rand. Merrill discusses Nathaniel Branden's push for something beyond traditional ethics:

"It is not enough, he suggests, to develop a set of rules for action, to tell people what what they ought to do. Ethics is not complete until it provides rules or prescriptions to advise people how to be moral."

Merrill also discusses Koestler's take on the issue: "Most moralists have been inclined simply to rely on human will-power (supplemented by reward and punishment), and thus have not much to contribute. Traditionally they have been prone to assume that if the patient only understands the roots of his behavior he will change it. As Arthur Koestler pointed out in Arrival and Departure, this thoery doesn't work."

So the idea of "keeping a healthy balance" can become simplistic if it ignores the context of society and the individual. Our society may be a bit ambiguous right now, but the worst example of this "balance your focus" becoming too simplistic would be that damned Life is Beautiful movie, with its, to my mind, anyway, unsatisfactory treatment of the true horror of the concentration camps. (Romantic Realism, or fairy tale?) (Viktor Frankel's book is much more realistic, and satisfactory, in comparison.)

But to put aside extreme cases, even Rand had this struggle, as demonstrated by her detached, "in the world but not of it" depiction of Roark vs. the despair found in the apocalyptic Atlas Shrugged. (And even Roark found himself, at times, contemplating the smashing of his own hands...) In Rand's letters, she asks a young Nathaniel Branden: "How can I cure you of screaming at collectivist in political arguments when I am still suffering from the same ailment myself?"

Barbara Branden claims that this suffering went even deeper:

"The whole state of the culture suddenly appears much worse then I had ever imagined" she said. "I no longer know to whom I'm addressing myself when I write. I know longer know where are the intelligences to which I've always addressed myself. I feel paralyzed by disgust and contempt. You can fight evil, but contempt is the most terrible feeling...you feel you are fighting lice, in a vacuum. And if I feel contempt for the whole culture-if it feels like I'm living in the last days of the Roman Empire-then what sense does it make to continue writing?"

(If Rand though SHE was living through another fall of a great empire THEN, how could she have lived through the here-and-now, today? It's easy to criticize, in hindsight, but the situation/outcome was more ambiguous for her, in the moment...we know Objectivism is down on ambiguity, and it can be harder for Objectivists to deal with it...)

One can debate the accuracy of Rand's perception of the culture, and even her objectivity, having just released Atlas into a hostile environment, but her subjective experience would not be soothed by "keep a balanced focus" if it came from someone not experiencing the same outlook.
(Certainly if it came from one with an opposing philosophy who is riding the crest of a socialist wave...like Keating telling Roark how successful he is and will be, while Roark contemplates smashing his hands...)

And this brings me to my point: the benefits and hazards of going online to get answers. The benefits are that one can overcome one's own myopic or solipsistic view of the landscape, and the dangers of reification, by getting outside perspectives. The hazard is to reify the perspective of others who may or may not be just as myopic or solipsistic. (And if one's outlook, from a vantage point of comfort, is based on not wanting one's one boat rocked, well...)

Ultimately, one has to keep the larger whole. And if that whole IS, in fact, something to be rightly concerned with, beyond one's own immediate comfort?

Barbara Branden speculates on Rand's vantage point:

"One must wonder if Ayn's suffering was not in part the price she paid, granted other elements in her psyche, for her astonishing intellectual powers. Historically, it's a price that men and women of vast intelligence have often paid. Such men and women stand alone, cut off from the world by a sense of distance from other people that is not an illness and cannot be cured. With the firsthand, blinding vision of the creator, they endure the loneliness of seeing farther and more clearly than others see, of understanding what others do no understand, of achieving what others cannot achieve, of moving forward with a dedication and tenacity that others cannot grasp. They feel invisible to the world-they are invisible, as is every creative genius...Why, then, did others not grasp what was so easy to grasp? Why did they not perceive what was so patently apparent?"

When one stands on the shoulders of giants, and thinks and acts on principle, the burden of balance is much greater. And how one deals with that in the short term, as much as the long term, depends on the degree of independence vs. interdependence on has on others...




(Edited by Joe Maurone on 2/14, 8:12am)

(Edited by Joe Maurone on 2/14, 9:41am)


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Post 31

Thursday, February 14, 2013 - 8:06amSanction this postReply
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Fred: you have the patience of a saint.

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Post 32

Thursday, February 14, 2013 - 8:06amSanction this postReply
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Touching on independence vs. interdependence:

The answer to the burning question of "how to live a rational life in an irrational society" depends on the extent to which one is involved in that society, and the extent to which the rest of the world is irrational. One side of the debate, you hear people lament over their own fate being affected by irrationality, on the other, you hear admonitions to "not be a victim," to "keep balance", to focus on the positive ("things are, over eons, getting better!").

Who's right?

I can't answer that for anyone, and there's no "one-size-fits-all" answer, but the answer, I think, depends on the validity of the idea of "independence" vs. "interdependence." To the extent that one is "independent," the critics who say to "buck up" are right. To the extent that one is "interdependent", let alone "dependent", it's true that "our fates are inextricably tied together."

The question, then, is: to what extent are YOU independent or interdependent, and to what extent can any one individual be independent vs. interdependent?

Ludwig von Mises, in his tome HUMAN ACTION, claims that for a individual to progress, and society, as well, interdependence is unavoidable. Ayn Rand also wrote that man was a "social animal", and that we thrive better with a system of division of labor (under a system of free, voluntary trade, non-coercively.) But Rand's critics say that "no man is an island", and that, to borrow from Hobbes, life alone is "nasty, brutish, and short." Most examples would see that out, although Rand is on record as saying that it would be preferable for a man to live in isolation than to compromise/sacrifice his mind to live in a gilded cage (which becomes tarnished very quickly, anyway).

There is a story circulating about a family that was found in the Siberian wilderness who lived in isolation for nearly 40 years, and were unaware of even WW2. They lived very poorly, being orthodox Christians in self-exile from the Bolsheviks. They had cramped living conditions, unsanitary, on often on the brink of starvation. And that was a small family, not an individual, so there was a degree of interdependence, there.

A more hopeful case for independent living was the man in the PBS documentary Alone in the Wilderness, who moved to Alaska to be in solitude, built a cabin by hand, and survived rather well, from what we are told. But even he benefited from the outside world, with occasional supplies flown in. Even more than that, he received the skill training he needed during his life in the main world, as opposed to having to start from scratch. ("Standing on the shoulders of giants.")

(This doesn't even touch on the psychological effects of living alone...)

So yes, in some way, we all are interdependent on others, if not society as a whole, whether our own personal society and family, or the larger aggression of knowledge handed down through time. While there's no guarantee that the ideas of that society are right or good, there is enough to warrant consideration. So, to some extent, the individual IS right to say that are lives are tied together. But is that "inextricable?" Again, that's an individual case…"We" is a lime poured over men. And we have seen that one can become isolated to a degree that may be preferable to living together, when the risks outweigh the benefits. Sometimes, the balance needed may call for standing alone against the many...


(Edited by Joe Maurone on 2/14, 9:58am)


Post 33

Thursday, February 14, 2013 - 9:50amSanction this postReply
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Dean,
And what is the price of not putting any focus whatsoever on the negatives?
Did I say to not put ANY focus on the negative? Who is throwing up a strawman argument now?

You asked why I didn't have anything to say about the federal government and federal reserve... because, 1.) It wasn't the topic I was addressing, 2.) I agree, in principle, at least, with what you were saying. (Except you are using language that is over the top.)

Did I say to ignore anything that is wrong? No.

No one JUST falls down an emotional rabbit hole of this kind... they have to have been walking towards it way ahead of time and not watching where they were going.

It was just a friendly observation I was making.


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Post 34

Thursday, February 14, 2013 - 11:05amSanction this postReply
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Joe,

Excellent post! I knew in advance that it would be easy to see what I wrote as too simplistic, or to see it as failing to be rigourous enough in the moral condemnation of evil (which is how Dean appears to have taken it). But it was really more to the issue you name, "How does one live rationally in an irrational society" - and my post would be easy to take as simplistic, but I assure you, what I hold in mind, that I'm addressing as "keep a balance" is not simplistic. I'll try to make a better explanation.

You wrote:
So the idea of "keeping a healthy balance" can become simplistic if it ignores the context of society and the individual. Our society may be a bit ambiguous right now, but the worst example of this "balance your focus" becoming too simplistic would be that damned Life is Beautiful movie, with its, to my mind, anyway, unsatisfactory treatment of the true horror of the concentration camps. (Romantic Realism, or fairy tale?) (Viktor Frankel's book is much more realistic, and satisfactory, in comparison.)
I agree that to ignore the context one lives in is simplistic... actually it is more like avoidance, rationalization, repression or some other form of disconnecting from reality - of shutting down aspects of healthy consciousness. I heard Victor Frankel speak at a conference I attended back in the early 90's. And one day Branden was putting forth a concept, "strategic detachment" and used Frankel's time in the concentration camp as an example. He was saying that if a person is in a circumstance so horrible that it would be harmful to one's very self to be fully aware of it, but doesn't choose an escape by blanking out reality, what do they do? Frankel related that during his time in the camp, he imagined that he wasn't really there, but that he was actually in the future, sitting in his den, remembering being in the camp in great detail so that he could write about it. A concentration camp is a horror so great that it takes all of one's spirit to give survival a chance. Becoming demoralized would put one too close to death. Frankel did an excellent job of diminishing the emotional intensity of his situation without abandoning his reasoning faculty. Strategic detachment.
-----------

You quoted Barbara Branden:
One must wonder if Ayn's suffering was not in part the price she paid, granted other elements in her psyche, for her astonishing intellectual powers.
I have no question that what Barbara Branden said is true, but there is another aspect here that goes more directly to finishing Atlas Shrugged - another explanation for that depression. Often, doctors who are about a year into private practice fall into a depression. They worked extremely hard in their undergraduate years because of the competition to get into med school, then they had to keep working hard for another 4 years in med school, followed by a very strenuous internship and residency. The human tendency is to keep making the imagined rewards of a final success larger and larger in ones mind - mostly subconsciously - in order to maintain the motivation to stick with such a grueling schedule year after year. The result is that without realizing it, the young doctor has made becoming a doctor a greater reward than it could ever be in reality. And when he has settled into the day to day clinical practice, he finds that he is the more like a manager of a small office staff, an eight-to-five functionary who spends more time with people with the flu who sneeze on him, and dealing with hemeroids and bitchy people in general, than anything spectacular or exhilarating. The depression is the loss of a dream he hardly knew he had. I can only imagine what Rand hoped for in the responses of the leaders in their fields when they read Atlas Shrugged, but 11 years of writing must have been accompanied by an imagined response that didn't materialize.
---------------

One day in a casual conversation, Branden mentioned to some of us that what he wanted was to be able to play his consciousness like a musical instrument. He grasped that to be conscious isn't just an on-off kind of thing and he knew about the complex interplay between the consciousness and subconciousness, between reason and emotion, and that the greatest potential that exists, still mostly untapped, is in the subtle exercise of choice as we attempt to steer consciousness in ways that suit not just its primary function of accurate awareness of what exists, but also towards the best results in positive experiences, happiness, excitement.
-----------------

NLP (Neurolinguistic Programming, a school of psychology) has a number of techniques where they attempt to amplify or diminish a mental event. Say a person has something that they fear, and the fear isn't rational. How to eliminate or diminish that fear is the goal. One of the techniques is to have the person imagine a situation that evokes the fear, but as if they were seeing the event on a movie screen and they have a remote control in their hands that controls the movie. They can shrink the size of the projected image which makes it go farther from them. This is a kind intervention in one's mental habits that is intended to provide a happier life. That is what I meant when I was suggesting getting a better focus on the negatives in today's culture. Mentally shrinking them. That doesn't mean changing ones moral judgements, it doesn't mean ignoring them, it doesn't mean going all pollyanna. It means that your consciousness does TWO things... and only one of them is thinking. The other is experiencing (feeling, emotions, motivations). The balance a person needs to work for - always - is between steering our consciousness to maximize on positive longterm experiences - a happy life - by grasping what exists, but in a way that doesn't take the horrors of the outside world in to us any more than we need to.
------------------

Even if things were not getting better as time goes on, even if the irrationality of the world around us is increasing and its effect upon is growing, our goal of having the best life we can remains. And if the way we are focusing on the negatives is generating a toxic emotional state, and if there is a way to shift that focus that doesn't change the nature of our judgements or deny us a clear understanding, then why would we want to in effect hit our thumb with a hammer?
-------------------

Frankel was totally dependent on the whims of evil guards in the most irrational situation that could be imagined. But what he sought and exercised was psychological independence. That is what I have been trying to encourage. I'm not saying that any of these evils being discussed aren't evil or don't exist. I'm not advocating irrationality or any kind of pretense. I'm saying we are each the driver of our consciousness to the degree that the mechanism can be driven, and some ways of driving it will be more productive of rational goals than others. Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD)is a disorder for a reason - it makes one less functional and is part of way of psychological being that is miserable. Too intensive a focus on the negatives in our political environment is like mini-OCD.
--------------------

Harry Browne in "How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World" addressed exactly this issue of shifting focus for the purpose of being happier (and without ever calling for not judging, or blanking out). Remember his example of the fellow who goes to his porch to get the bottle of milk that is delivered each morning, as they used to do. But someone has stolen his milk. He can rant and rail over injustice, and the unfairness of it all. He can plot schemes to catch the person and extract revenge. He can start a political action group to change society and the police mechanisms so that his milk will be safe in some imagined future. Or, he can decide if he wants to shift to buying his milk in the store and eat his Wheaties that morning with water on them. The point was about this mental shift where the judgments of the world around us don't get mixed in, any more than necessary, with the actions available immediately to get from A to B in achieving a happy life. You can make a career out of political activism or only be a spectator in that battle field, but either choice can also be done with an obsessive focus that will prove toxic, or with a healthy focus that keeps one from self-infecting emotionally because of the negatives.

The greatest form of independence is internal.

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Post 35

Thursday, February 14, 2013 - 12:09pmSanction this postReply
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Thank you, Steve, and thanks for your elaboration. Well-said, in return.

Post 36

Friday, February 15, 2013 - 7:26amSanction this postReply
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A part of this belongs in the diversity of thought thread.

Let me repeat; none of us have a crystal ball. The truth of the matter isn't determined by democracy or even purely physics. Everything I said about the physics of the event could be true and not disprove Dean's belief that the event was in some ways dirty, that the government was complicit.

What we have from afar are observations, and beliefs based on those observations. And with enough diversity of thought, somewhere in all of that we might actually have it covered.

There is a danger, in evaluating exceptional events, to lean too heavily on what is 'likely.' The efficacy of diversity of thought in evaluating incomplete information -- which is what this is for all of us -- is to avoid the pitfalls of being lead astray by what is 'likely.'

If 'likely' ruled the universe, then those towers would still be standing.

regards,
Fred

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Post 37

Saturday, February 16, 2013 - 3:55amSanction this postReply
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is why love good science fiction - keeps me sane in an insane world...;-)

Post 38

Saturday, February 16, 2013 - 8:42amSanction this postReply
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Robert, I know what you're saying.

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Post 39

Saturday, February 16, 2013 - 9:46amSanction this postReply
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Belatedly, I'm chiming in with my two cents worth. I'm a structural engineer with a master's degree.

There's a lot more going on in the collapse than has been mentioned here ... and a lot more than I'll deal with. The debris falling from the upper stories on an intact floor isn't uniform in its dispersal and more force will be applied to one side of a column from a horizontal girder or truss. When this happens the column is no longer subjected to just a pure compression load but has a bending moment (i.e. torque) applied to it as well. Fred is quite correct when he says that the dynamic shock wave propagates at the speed of sound (it's much faster in steel than in air) so that the horizontal deformation in the column due to bending is felt practically instantaneously along its length. This leads to buckling at the lower portions of a column. You can decide yourself if this (partial) explanation is in accordance with the videos. Demolition experts could have a lot to add.

Just to experiment with this buckling phenomenon, take a flexible, retractable tape measure. Extend about a foot of it and press down on it. At a certain point it will buckle and can't support any load at all. Now, rotate the upper end a tad and buckling will occur at  much lower compression. The mathematical treatment of this can be seen here.

I think that the whole conspiracy thing isn't tenable for several reasons. I believe it was on 60 Minutes where I saw a video of bin Laden reminiscing about 9/11 with a cohort and expressing his surprise and delight that the attack was as successful as it was because he didn't expect that the towers would actually fall. Bin Laden had opportunity to deny involvement via Al Jazeera which was actively airing pro-terrorist propaganda at the time. Even if he wasn't involved he wished to be thought as being.

Also, I believe that there has been some speculation that there weren't any human pilots involved at all. It is well known that the "Let's roll" heroes of the plane that went down in farmland were texting their loved ones about the very real terrorists that were threatening them.

Sam


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