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Thursday, May 21, 2009 - 2:07pmSanction this postReply
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It could be either. Depends on the individual involved, and what their actual motivation is for not working.

I'm "on strike" now, because with the marginal tax brackets that apply due to my wife earning well into six figures, well more than half of what I earn would be confiscated by the various levels of government. (11% marginal state income tax, 36% marginal federal income tax, social security, medicaid, General Excise Taxes when the income is spent, etc.) Damned if I'm going to spend all day working just to help grow some already ravenous governments ... I'm going to spend my time on productive pursuits that benefit my family that are not subject to taxation.

Post 1

Friday, May 22, 2009 - 11:23amSanction this postReply
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I agree with you, Jim.  Like too many polls I've seen here (and anywhere polls are done), this commits the either/or fallacy, and blatantly ignores context to boot.  That said, it does bring up an interesting thought topic.

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Post 2

Friday, May 22, 2009 - 6:33pmSanction this postReply
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Of course it depends on the context. Unless you have an established track record of producing major successes and then stopping cold, saying you are on "strike" is oddly indistinguishable from being an unproductive loser.

Post 3

Friday, May 22, 2009 - 9:19pmSanction this postReply
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John, could you please say how you REALLY feel and quit sugarcoating everything? Tired of all this diplomatic pussyfooting around ... ;o)

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Post 4

Friday, May 22, 2009 - 9:45pmSanction this postReply
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John: "Unless you have an established track record of producing major successes and then stopping cold, saying you are on "strike" is oddly indistinguishable from being an unproductive loser."

So if someone like Howard Roark was just starting his career, and hadn't yet achieved any "major successes" when the equivalent of Galt's Gulch was started up, then if he joined GG and went on strike he would be an "unproductive loser"?

Or if someone was considerably less intelligent or talented than the protagonists of Atlas Shrugged or The Fountainhead, but lived their life entirely according to Objectivist principles, then if he or she went on strike they would be an "unproductive loser"?

Glad you cleared that up before I fell into some erroneous thinking ...


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Saturday, May 23, 2009 - 12:46pmSanction this postReply
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So if someone like Howard Roark was just starting his career, and hadn't yet achieved any "major successes" when the equivalent of Galt's Gulch was started up, then if he joined GG and went on strike he would be an "unproductive loser"?


Actually, what John said was he would be indistinguishable from an unproductive loser, just as some who can read but chooses not to would be indistinguishable from an illiterate. Now, if like the residents of Galt's Gulch, Roark continued to work on his masterpieces, but just kept them to himself or shared them only with the other residents, evidence would then clearly indicate we has a genius but was on strike.

The society depicted in Atlas Shrugged was on the verge of a totalitarian dictatorship and utlimately became one. This is hardly the case now in the US. In Atlas Shrugged, to admit you were on strike would have gotten you thrown in jail or even executed as an enemy of the people.

I question first the sincerity and second the motivation of people who now claim to be on strike, in this, one of the freest nations on the planet. Motivation wise - what harm your productive wealth taken from you in taxes could do to your values in the hands of an idiotic and inefficient government pales in comparison to the good you can do toward achieving what you value as an intelligent rational motivated genius with the immense amount of wealth you could could accumulate. Sincerity wise - claiming to be 'on strike' is all to easily a self imposed psychological crutch instituted to shield ones self from the fact that one is not actually as brilliant or as able as they fancy themselves to be.



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Saturday, May 23, 2009 - 5:30pmSanction this postReply
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Michael said, "The society depicted in Atlas Shrugged was on the verge of a totalitarian dictatorship" and then, referring to modern day America, he said, "... in this, one of the freest nations on the planet."

Well, there are a great many reasons to see American today as "on the verge of totalitarian dictatorship." Obama fired the CEO of GM... if you're an Automotive exec this might be a very good time to go on strike. And I don't think I'd want to work for a bank that now belongs to the government. Some sectors of our economy are far less free than in many other countries.

Going on strike is a form of withholding the sanction of the victim. I think it is inappropriate to psychologize others and pretend to understand their motivation well enough to call them insincere, or motivated from an insecurity complex.

Who cares about "indistinguishable from"? The fact that a person is not visible as a 'genius on strike' as opposed to an "unproductive loser" is only important to those who care about appearances.

The fact is that people go on strike all of the time, not totally in an Atlas Shrugged fashion, but for purely economic or legal reasons - they get fed up with rules or interventions in an area, so they refuse to participate in that area and get into one that is more enjoyable. I know a doctor that quit his clinical practice because of rules, insurance costs. He went into research but he'll probably leave that area if more and more of the research is driven by political agendas.

The principle is good - when government makes any area more difficult and your self-interest is better served by another area - move. The net effect is to make it harder for government to survive on the backs of those they burden.

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Saturday, May 23, 2009 - 6:30pmSanction this postReply
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Well, Steve, at least we know your wife isn't paying your taxes for you.

(Edited by Ted Keer on 5/23, 8:29pm)


Post 8

Saturday, May 23, 2009 - 7:21pmSanction this postReply
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I agree that you would have to know the motivations behind going "on strike" to truly know the answer to the question at hand. However, I find it interesting that so many seem to equate being on strike to being totally unproductive. If you look at the work where the concept of going on strike was introduced with regard to Objectivism, as I'm sure we all have, not one of the strikers was unproductive while on strike. They still did what they always had, while denying the results to their ideological enemies. In this sense, the original striker is not standing in a picket line with arms crossed, he's doing his job in his garage solely because he loves it. I think it would be easy to distinguish such a person from an unproductive loser.

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Post 9

Saturday, May 23, 2009 - 7:46pmSanction this postReply
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I dislike the "I am on strike" thing.  It allows people the ability to compare themselves to John Galt but without the effort of actually doing any of the work.  It allows them to equate their imagined achievements with real ones.  If they think they could be fantastic businessmen, it's just as good as if they were.  After all, to withhold your productive greatness from the world requires that you have it in the first place.  Saying you're on strike presumes a greatness that you never needed to earn.  How convenient!

The worst is that the "I am on strike" pretense allows them to take pride in their lack of achievement.  They can view themselves as superior to all of the people out there excelling in their lives and accomplishing great things.  They can claim a moral superiority, since they are willing to not work for anything while those immoral brutes out there are living happy and successful lives.

Actually being great at what you do is a lot of work.  It's rewarding work, but it requires discipline and serious effort.  Those who haven't done it, and who find excuses for not doing it, don't know what it requires.  They simply imagine themselves being accomplished and successful.  How can the real efforts of people ever hope to compare to the fantasies of those on strike?  Of course they imagine themselves as Howard Roarks or John Galts.  It's free.  It's a false pride that costs you nothing, since you never have to deliver on the goods.

For far too long people have treated Atlas Shrugged as an excuse to not succeed in life.  It's been an excuse for Objectivists to live in poverty, take pride in it, while blaming others for not giving them an ideal world to live in.  They adopt a morality that promotes lack of success and scorns productivity. They also get to claim that they want the reverse, that they value success, but that the world is such a horrible place that they're stuck doing the opposite.

So I'll say it.  If Howard Roark decided at the beginning of the book that the government was evil and he wouldn't do anything with his life because they might benefit, he would be an unproductive loser.  He absolutely would not be the great architect he actually became.  He wouldn't have put the work and effort into.  He'd be some punk kid who got kicked out of a pretentious college and never did anything with his life.  The fact that he had the potential to eventually do something great should never be equated to actually having done something great.

And I can imagine the tax collector asking Roark "What do you think of me?"  Instead of "But I don't think of you", the on-strike Roark would say "I've devoted my life to giving you as little money as possible!". 

Not quite as inspiring.



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Saturday, May 23, 2009 - 8:20pmSanction this postReply
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Joseph,

I'd have sanctioned your post #9 twice if i could've. Also, the one thing about the recently popular expression "Going Galt" is that people seemed to associate it more with a tax strategy - finding a niche between the tax rungs. The essence of what it actually meant in the books seemed lost.

jt




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Post 11

Saturday, May 23, 2009 - 9:21pmSanction this postReply
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People are framing the "going on strike" issue in a strange way. They act as if only those of Galt-like stature can strike, and that anyone else who takes the holy "strike" word in vain is just a total loser airing obnoxious pretensions. Then, by simple logic, everyone else has to stay a serf even when they decide that they are being made into victims in their world, and are being asked to sanction their victimizers.

Doesn't anyone see how wrong it is to make striking some god-like thing reserved only for a Galt or Roark? People should remember that Galt's speech was a call to all producers to strike. Striking is refusing to go along with the level of government's imposed burden in the area they work in - it is a decision to withdraw support of a system that has reached a certain level of evil. It is a practical, selfish moral principle that everyone makes - John Galt or Joe the Plumber. It is a choice open to everyone.

Why would someone have to be a great genius to say, "I'm no longer going to provide value to this system"? That makes no sense to me.

I'm not going to argue that there aren't many people who will talk about going on strike that are ding-a-lings. I agree with the disdain that Joe expresses for those whose only accomplishments are in their minds. But why talk about them at all? Talking about them on an individual level often requires psychologizing and that isn't appropriate - and there are always going to be ding-a-lings - people that puff themselves up in pretentious ways. So what?

The part of the real world that needs to be focused on isn't Atlas Shrugged or John Galt or Howard Roark and certainly not any of the ding-a-lings - It is the concept of sanction of victim and effective rebelling and self-interest and the place of productive work in a person's life - these are tough to juggle and to apply to the political reality coming towards us. That is what we should be talking about.



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Sunday, May 24, 2009 - 5:54amSanction this postReply
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I agree with the disdain that Joe expresses for those whose only accomplishments are in their minds. But why talk about them at all?

I have to admit that I wasn't even thinking about them when I voted. 


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Post 13

Sunday, May 24, 2009 - 7:27amSanction this postReply
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Well, there are a great many reasons to see American today as "on the verge of totalitarian dictatorship." Obama fired the CEO of GM...


Well sure people might say America is on the verge of totalitarian dictatorship, and those people would be utterly stupid to express such a thing. I would say to those people that they ought to refresh their definition of totalitarian and dictatorship.


I think it is inappropriate to psychologize others and pretend to understand their motivation well enough to call them insincere, or motivated from an insecurity complex


It is equally inappropriate to suggest that having an opinion on the motivation and sincerity of others is worthless, it is proper in the moral appraisal of man to consider, or at least attempt to, their motivations and sincerity, as I am sure you do when you consider whether actions taken against you were deliberately malicious or accidentally stupid.

The Strike in Atlas Shrugged was primarily made up of the greatest minds who had a demonstrated track record of achievement and productivity who withdraw. I have not met a single objectivists claiming to be 'on strike' who has any established track record of achievement which differs significantly from their achievements when 'on strike' They have, for the most part, been people who have never accomplished anything significant, and I don't mean significant in the Francisco D'Anconia sense, but significant even to their own potential and have universally lauded their own 'striking' status in a morally superior tone. But perhaps I am unworthy of being privy to their great accomplishments...


Who cares about "indistinguishable from"? The fact that a person is not visible as a 'genius on strike' as opposed to an "unproductive loser" is only important to those who care about appearances.


I do not consider achievement vs non-achievement to be mere 'appearances' A person who lives in his mom's basement and does nothing but play video games claiming to be 'on strike' is an utter joke. It's one thing to withhold the fire of your mind from fueling the world, its entirely another thing to have no evidence of any fire in your mind.


I know a doctor that quit his clinical practice because of rules, insurance costs. He went into research but he'll probably leave that area if more and more of the research is driven by political agendas.


Interesting example, but I think it proves my point. He had an established track record of achievement in his field. But could you really say he is 'on strike'? he remains in his field and remains doing productive work fueling the same system that drove him out of his clinical practice. My questions are 1) is he an objectivist 2) does he say 2) I am on strike! 3) does he enjoy research or clinical practice more?. It's clear he withdrew the products of his efforts in response to restrictions imposed on him, but I don't think it's appropriate to call such a thing a 'strike' even though it is laudable, a striker gives nothing productive to the world and earns only his barest sustenance. It might be appropriate to call such a thing a protest, but not a strike.

My Architecture professor is perhaps an admirable example of a striker. He had a successful firm for many years, but with the recent downturn in construction had to lay off some employees and downsize his firm. A few months later he bought a newish Volvo and gave his old car to his son. His employees were furious and couldn't believe he had done such a thing after laying off a couple of employees. They all banded together and demanded he either higher them back or get raises. One of the employees he had taken under his wing and given close tutelage to, even helped him when he was having difficult person problems because he saw a brilliant architect in him. He said when that guy turned on him too, he had enough. He fired them all and closed his firm down. Today he teaches architecture and is his firms only employee.

Here we see an established track record of achievement in a field and then a withdrawal of that from the benefit of parasites that fed off him and demanded ever more blood. But he does not go around bragging about being on strike, in fact I don't think he even realized it was a Glat like strike until I suggested as such, he had read Atlas Shrugged decades before, and he continues work on projects on his own in his studio.

In the case of your Doctor friend, those who imposed restrictions on him still benefit from his productive effort. In the case of my Architecture professors, none of those who bled him benefit in any way from his productive efforts. But, perhaps, given the nature of the medical profession it would be almost impossible to achieve what my professor did without completely leaving professional medicine.

The major point though is that without that established track record of achievement, or demonstrations of your own ability that you withdraw from the world, a striker is in fact indistinguishable from an unproductive loser.

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Post 14

Sunday, May 24, 2009 - 7:30amSanction this postReply
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However, I find it interesting that so many seem to equate being on strike to being totally unproductive. ... not one of the strikers was unproductive while on strike. They still did what they always had, while denying the results to their ideological enemies. ... he's doing his job in his garage solely because he loves it. I think it would be easy to distinguish such a person from an unproductive loser.


That is exactly my point. Show me the contents of your garage or you are indistinguishable from an unproductive loser. Or, if you are reluctant to share those contents, be prepared to understand that within the context of the knowledge available to me in appraising you and your claim to be 'on strike' you are functionally indistinguishable from an unproductive loser.


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Post 15

Sunday, May 24, 2009 - 11:14amSanction this postReply
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If a guy was really on strike, why would he care what you thought? Your potential contribution to his life has been assessed as virtually nil. Thats why he's on strike.

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Post 16

Sunday, May 24, 2009 - 11:52amSanction this postReply
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Ted,

You said, "Well, Steve, at least we know your wife isn't paying your taxes for you." Well, I'm not married, but then my girlfriend could be paying my taxes... That isn't the case, and I'm not on strike, but you wouldn't know any of that. And it doesn't make any difference, because you really aren't talking about me. Doesn't matter that you said, "Steve...your...you," you were actually taking an indirect swipe at Jim. But didn't anyone notice that he put "on strike" in quotes, that he gave his reasons for not working at a high paying position, and that he stated he was engaged in "productive" activities. Why the attacks on him? And why such irrational form and harsh character for the attacks?

Ryan,

The degree to which others are concerned with appearance is as astonishing... as if going on strike were a beauty contest of sorts - and to be in that pageant one has to "appear" to be an accomplished genius before going on strike. Which then has to be done suddenly and for just the right set of reasons and at just the right time and conditions. But no mention of rational self-interest, and no mention of revoking the sanction of the victim, and no mention of withdrawing productive contributions from a system that doesn't recognize their worth. Blindness to the underlying principles or how they can be applied in other than the story-line of Atlas Shrugged. Just the judging of the contestants on their appearance and minute comparisons to John Galt or Howard Roark. Some people may have deified Rand's characters and subconsciously carried over the culture's Christian carrot of going to heaven in some kind of emotional attachment to Galt's Gulch.

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Sunday, May 24, 2009 - 12:14pmSanction this postReply
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Oh, no, Steve, that's not "an attack," we should all be so lucky as to have a wife to pay our expenses for us. Of course, she then does not have the luxury of living on principle. We can't all be egoists. Some of us have to live for others. That's something we selfish people all understand.



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Post 18

Monday, May 25, 2009 - 11:50amSanction this postReply
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If a guy was really on strike, why would he care what you thought? Your potential contribution to his life has been assessed as virtually nil. Thats why he's on strike.


A striker does not strike because he feels others make no contribution to HIS life, do you think Galt felt that Francisco, Dagny, Reardern, Hugh Axton, etc, made no valuable contributions to his life? That is rather anti-thetical to the essence of the strike. Strikers do not want OTHERs to benefit from their own work when those others are harming them or that which they value.

And if said guy was really on strike, and didn't care what I thought, then why would he go prancing around bragging about being on strike? The only logical reason would be to encourage others of similiar values to take up the same struggle. However, to be any value to me as a demonstration of the worthiness of striking, they would actually need to have some evidence of that fire in their mind they are withholding from the world, otherwise they are hardly more than a whiny brat who wants to take his ball and go home. This is why Galt, the leader of the strike, was the greatest productive genius in probably a millennium, and not starbucks employee.

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Monday, May 25, 2009 - 12:04pmSanction this postReply
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The degree to which others are concerned with appearance is as astonishing...


Steve, you say 'others' and 'appearance' but who is it you're really talking about?

'Appearance' whatever that means to you, is the only mechanism by which I have to ascertain the circumstances surrounding something which are required to make an informed judgment. I can not get inside your head and know what you are thinking. No one is talking about beauty contests or being the greatest genius in the world, YOU are putting those into the mouth of others. The degree with which you deliberately try not to understand the simplest of points is astounding.

I applauded my Architecture professor as a real tangible striker because he had demonstrated his ability and withdrew it specifically from those who were parasitically feeding off him. Had a stranger walked up to me and said he would have been a good architect but instead went on strike because someday some employees might demand he work for him at his own expense I would laugh in his face, just as he deserves to be laughed at. Striking against things that never happened in protest to achievements he never made nor had any evidence he could actually make

Various people in this thread have made numerous comments regarding the specific points you raise, yet in a vague hand waving manner you still spew 'no mention is made of this' 'no mention is made of that' lacking the implied by whom? WHO are you asserting made no mention of these things? You are arguing against an invisible position and evading every response made to points you spout, it's frankly a disgusting and dishonest manner of debate.

If you have a challenge to make against a point someone makes MAKE IT TO THAT PERSON and make it clear and unequivocal, be a man and stand behind your opinions, don't hide under the obfuscation of vagueness innuendos. Or are you on strike against intellectual objective discussions making any tangible progress? Your debating technique is more indicative of Ellsworth Toohey than anyone else and us worthy of only editorial pages of Gail Wynands latest publication.

(Edited by Michael F Dickey on 5/25, 12:06pm)


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