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Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 8:26pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Jeffrey,

Is this a poem about how to write poems?

I tried to find out something about you, dude, but there's nothing there - zilch. Just your little diddly.

So with this verse we know you've now arrived.
You didn't test the waters. You just dived
While twisting sense to show how hard you've strived
To rhyme and hide that maybe you just jived.

//;-)

Michael


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Post 1

Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 8:39pmSanction this postReply
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Michael, Are you intentionally trying to be an asshole?  I quite liked the poem and thought it was very well done for its message.  Far from 'twisting sense' it actually made its message quite clear to me.   

As far as your comment about Jeffrey "testing the waters," it seems you think he's a newbie.  He's actually not, and has submittted some good stuff in the past.  Not sure how you missed that in your getting acquainted with the site, but there it is.

Jeffrey - well done.  Please keep working on your poetry.

Jason


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Post 2

Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 9:10pmSanction this postReply
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Jason,

Where is his stuff? I went to his page and it doesn't give any info at all. He is a ghost.

As to not liking his poem too much, did I miss something here? Hmmmm... wasn't HE the one who started off by dumping and saying how piss poor he thought contrived poetry was? Or does contriving a poem by twisting syntax all backwards to force-fit rhymes into it not qualify as "twisting"?

I ain't saying that he ain't got talent. But taking a poem straight out of a rhyming dictionary and posturing superiority ain't gonna get it in my book. How about images, similes, metaphors, alliteration... er... you know... things of poetry? Not just an opinion on other bad poetry.

Also, that "asshole" business. No I am not trying to be an asshole. Are you? What the fuck has gotten into you these days anyway? All of a sudden you got an attitude with me. But if you wanna start playing the dozens, hey, we can get down. Bring it on.

Back to the topic. Just because a guy puts out a few rhymes doesn't give him a special dispensation to being judged on quality and become enshrined as a sensitive genius or something. Sorry if my criteria doesn't meet yours. I have had to work like the dickens to learn this craft (I use it in both songwriting and poetry) - and it hasn't stopped.

But hey, enjoy. I think he can do A LOT better and he just might have the talent to do so if people called him out on it instead of breathlessly hanging onto some obscure poorly rhymed diddly. I think he just might be better than that. But if that thing is good enough for you (and him), like I said, enjoy.

I shoot for much better - both in myself and in others.

Michael


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Post 3

Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 9:19pmSanction this postReply
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You know, I could dissect point by point.  But it's simpler to simply say (in a simple way),

What.  A.   Dick.

Jason


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Post 4

Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 9:36pmSanction this postReply
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Am I missing something here?

Am I stepping on the toes of somebody's friend or something?

You want to know why Objectivist poetry doesn't last too long out in the real world? Because most of what you read sucks - that's why. (At least that is from what I have read so far.)

Jason, YOU may not like a call to get better, and OTHER ASPIRANTS TO POET may not like it either, but this shit has got to stop. Objectivsts have talent. They need to break out of this posturing and get down into some real art for a change.

Poetry is serious business, dude. I for one intend to fight for that. I have a few ideas up my sleeve, but that's just where they are going to stay for the time being (especially around here with this climate).

btw - And before I forget. Fuck you too.

Michael


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Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 2:47amSanction this postReply
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I have to concurr with Michael on this one.... as one who lived with a craftman poet, can say this is drivel - there are much better works to be had.......   consider, for instance, poetry of John Paul Sherman... yes, an Objectivist, from many years ago....

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Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 4:03amSanction this postReply
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I can't believe Jason.  What a fucking asshole. Not only are people not supposed to post relevant quotes counter to his friends' opinions, honestly criticizing poetry is no longer allowed either--and becoming editor suddenly makes him our lord, god and emperor.  That is bullshit. The vicious attack on Michael was uncalled for and extremely immature. Jason used to be a really nice guy, but no more. Hisssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

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Post 7

Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 6:37amSanction this postReply
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First of all, I do not know Jeffrey Lewis.  I do not know his past work.  I know this one instance and I know it is - obviously - a very purposefully simple poem.  That was its intention and in that regard it fulfilled its aim.

My objection, Michael, was to the horribly nasty post you made to begin with.  If this guy were a newcomer, is this any kind of welcome?  To criticize is one thing; to criticize snidely is quite another.  Your post had such an uncharacteristic tone to it that I was initially shocked, then offended.  That''s why I asked if you were intentionally trying to be an asshole - I meant to call attention to the fact that that's exactly how you came across.  For what its worth, I think that's uncharacteristic of you.  And also for what its worth, that was the only sentence that was personal - the rest were about the poem itself and then a 'well done' to the author.  A 'keep working' is quite a far cry from "breathlessly hanging onto" anything.

Then, your unusual rancor was turned on me for criticizing your manner.  So, I answered in kind. 

And kat - honey dear - whatever.  I never said "This isn't allowed," as if I would even have the desire were I to have the authority (I don't and I don't).  What you're saying is that if someone objects to the criticism - and manner of that criticism - of one of your friends, you're going to get all in a hissy fit.  Sorry, but your love interest isn't exempt any more than the author.  Michael has the right to criticize and be criticized.  Just as we all do. 

Jason


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Post 8

Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 7:22amSanction this postReply
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Such benevolence.

I've read some of Jeffrey Lewis poetry. Interesting stuff, especially on his website. What he is *not* is pretentious. He is trying to find his voice. *That* will be the most difficult task, and is for all of us who seek authenticity and originality. I suspect that when he strips away what he thinks he *should* write, and begins to write from that place in the basement of his soul, that he will produce great stuff.

The man has the nuts to post here for all to see. I applaud him for that. Keep writing Jeffrey. Some of what you write will indeed be crap. But when you hit the mark, people will laugh, or cry, or clip it and post it on the wall to read over and over again.

Michael you have every right to not like his work. Even to call it shit. Or just to give it a pass. But I am saddened to see you and Jason getting into a pissing match.

John

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Post 9

Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 10:11amSanction this postReply
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Let's get some things straight here.

I do not think that Jeffrey Lewis is a horrible poet - but this particular poem of his is pretty bad. (And I have a right to say that. God knows I have enough of my own bad verses.)

I do wish to see his other work to make an informed opinion. I looked. I did not find. And I was told in no uncertain terms that I have been remiss in missing what apparently does not exist. Has he posted here? Jason implied so. Has he posted other articles or content? Jason implied so. See for yourself, anybody:
As far as your comment about Jeffrey "testing the waters," it seems you think he's a newbie.  He's actually not, and has submittted some good stuff in the past.  Not sure how you missed that in your getting acquainted with the site, but there it is.
Well I asked, where is it? Click on his name and look. A big nothing. So was that just bullshit blathering, Jason, or is there a there there? And where is it? I am still asking and nobody is answering, except John Newnham, who said he has a web site. (Thanks, John, and a link would be nice if you would.)

Since this is supposed to be a discussion of poetry, I merely took most of the rest of the usable rhymes for "ived" from the rhyming dictionary and made a playful jab - a "poetic" jab I might add - at Jeffrey. I wanted to stress that he did not get across his intended effect - to me anyway, and that if you make such overuse of a resource like a rhyming dictionary (which is a wonderful resource btw, properly used), trying to find a subtle emotion comes off pompous and obscure. Overuse of rhymes is more suited to humor or when a hypnotic effect is wanted. Maybe a couple of other uses. It is not suited to a profound subtle feeling like a particular shade of distress of the heart. That is a misfire, and if you don't like that fact, there it is anyway. That fact holds true for all of us.

One thing I did not do was use any of the words he rhymed in my diddly. Not one. If he is a poet worth his salt, that detail will not be wasted on him and does not even need to be pointed out to him. I even left a nice hint that I was willing to engage in a bit of "poetic" banter with a smiley at the end of the post.

Sort of like, let's see what you've got, because this one didn't get it. I have a feeling there's something there worth finding (which is nonexistent on the parts of Solo I was able to check) and I want to draw it out.

Then I was called an asshole and a dick. Well there's real poetry for you. The SOLO standard of reasoned poetic discourse. Hat's off, Jason. Maybe you have some more enlightening comments to make poetry-wise? Other highbrow metaphors? I'm all ears.

About this snide business. I have seen so many Objectivists who do not have a sense of humor that that is not even funny. It seems that they are completely blinded by always trying to play one-upmanship all the time. There is nothing in their emotional vocabulary for being playfully prodded. Just a very thin skin. They live in a world of put-downs and sneers and - yes, I have to say the word, social competition. (Social metaphysics anyone?) So a humorous poetic retort will become "horribly nasty," "shocking" and "offensive," simply because they can't see. They look at the crowd through insecure and arrogant eyeglasses. And they think everyone is like that when those glasses are on.

That is so not me.

(I am blind! I cannot see! Assholes and dicks of the world, I cannot see! That makes you all assholes and dicks right now! Can I not see because there is no light or because my own damn eyes are shut?)

So, for the record, welcome aboard Jeffrey Lewis, if you are not already aboard. If all this personal crap has not scared you off, I, for one, would be interested in seeing what else you've got. One thing your poem did was to peek my interest enough to work out a verse or two. So that should say something. If this gave you a put-down sneering impression, then I apologize for the misunderstanding. My intent was to poke you a bit ("Hey there, dude, bring something else on"). Not to run you off or make you stop writing or posting. Especially not to show the world "how so very much superior I am to you." Somehow I think you are made of stronger stuff, though. It takes balls to post a poem anywhere.

As to being called an asshole and a dick, I don't care who you are. The only proper response to that is a sonorous fuck you too. I respect others and I will be respected. And I can get much uglier if disrespect is what is wanted.

Michael

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Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 10:22amSanction this postReply
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John, it is one thing to call a man's sincere piece of art shit figuratively via a reasoned critique; it is another thing to shit on the man.

MSK's post did that. It mocked a man who had provoked nobody. There could be no GOOD reason to do so.


Post 11

Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 11:21amSanction this postReply
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Jeffrey seems to have created a new profile.  His old one is here.

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Post 12

Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 11:45amSanction this postReply
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Thank you David:
It mocked a man who had provoked nobody.
You just eloquently illustrated my point about the emotional blindness I talked about.

Especially thank you, Jennifer. I very much appreciate that link. Now I will read. I will absorb. And I will be back.

Michael

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Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 1:55pmSanction this postReply
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Jesus Christ!  :-)

You all need to be thoroughly and irrevocably repudiated.

Ethan


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Post 14

Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 3:32pmSanction this postReply
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You have all...EVERY LAST ONE OF YOU...hurt me. So terribly, terribly hurt me. First, with the large word and large concepts, then, with the mean posts to newcomers, then with the accusation, repudiations, denigrations, exhortations.

I am SO done with the bunch of you. I am so hurt, I am wounded and hurt and injured in my feelings.

AHHHH!! Now I feel better.

I though Michael's initial post was a tad harsh, but so was the reaction to it. Benevolence requires giving people--especially other SOLOists, the benefit of the doubt, so start getting along you friggin' jackasses!

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Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 3:51pmSanction this postReply
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I am SO done with the bunch of you. I am so hurt, I am wounded and hurt and injured in my feelings.
Yeah, me too.

Good post Scott!



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Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 4:31pmSanction this postReply
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Sorry for the delay I have been locked in the Isle of wight and was unable [nay unwilling] to get connected. I was enjoying losing the wire and the wireless for a while. MSK to answer your question it is a poem about writing poems. For the most part. Basically there is a lot of crap out there. [there is also a lot of good stuff] and a lot of my work is crap. I wrote a whole book of crap that you can buy from my website www.TheHumanSoul.com. But the poem was suppose to appear simply contrived thus the title. but I also request the reader to second guess if the poem is simply contrived with the use of enjambment to focus in the line "Sift thoroughly the stitch from false wounds I’ve
fully shown" I was hoping that this would help someone to wonder if they picked up on everything that was "fully shown" there in my opinion a smoothe stitch and the IVes are not the only rhymes within the poem. however, it is getting late. The poem is suppose to shun poetry that is not from the heart and even once it is from the heart it should be well constructed. . Talk to you soon. Thanks, JML

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Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 7:45pmSanction this postReply
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There you are Jeffrey!

Just as I had imagined, you have a tougher hide than people thought (a whole book of crap? - come on, I didn't care for this particular poem but I don't think you have a whole book of crap in you, er... I hope...). Also, just as I thought, you have other work (here on Solo) that I was able to evaluate - thanks to a link Jennifer provided. It is actually quite good. I will go to your web site later on.

I have done the first reading of the Solo links and these other works of yours are being internalized so that on second and third reading, the "between the lines" can speak to me. I will get back to you on them after "digestion." (Wonderful Keats quote, by the way.) I have a feeling that we are going to have things to talk about (if you wish).

Scott. LOOLOLOLOL... Go write about Kim or something. (Pretty good stuff too, btw.)

Wait a minute! Fucking jackasses? And Ethan agreeing? And David pouting? And Jason showing off his good looks and bod on another thread? And? And? And?

And what about the others?

Dayamm! Does this mean that we can still be friends? Or is all lost in the labyrinths of dick-and-assholedomeness?

Michael


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Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 8:09pmSanction this postReply
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Or is all lost in the labyrinths of dick-and-assholedomeness?

Michael, I am SOOOO gonna' just bite my tongue on that! I could take that in so many directions.  Resisting is hard, though!  (Woops!!)


Post 19

Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 9:48pmSanction this postReply
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"start getting along you friggin' jackasses!"

I agree, Scott, and very benevolently put I might add. :-)

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