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Post 20

Wednesday, December 16, 2009 - 6:14pmSanction this postReply
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This is starting to sound oddly familiar to another negative thread  Kate brought up regarding an off hand comment Rand made years ago at a Q& A session.

There is no way anyone could conclude from reading Rand's non-fiction or fiction, that this type of behaviour is even a little bit rational. It seems your friend is taking Rand's unexplored, un-expanded comment about indulging the hopeless with public funds (and that the handicapped should "stay away from children") as gospel.   

I'm thinking you pointed your friend to that recorded Q & A, and perhaps it was a mistake as she obviously cannot rationally comprehend the context.

 Rand herself wore reading glasses, couldn't (wouldn't) drive an automobile, and struggled to overcome her Russian accent all of her life.  Rand hated her accent, but I loved it.  Rand was addicted to cigarettes, too. Maybe your friend could take up smoking and develop an Eastern European accent?

Rand was put off by homosexuality, Mozart, and many visual artists. Rand had personal tastes and biases. Not all of them were rational.

I'm just laughing at the lady, if it's true, Kate. Willful blind ignorance like that is hilarious.

If you're trying to blame Rand for your friend's problems, I ain't buying. 




Post 21

Wednesday, December 16, 2009 - 7:00pmSanction this postReply
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I'm not blaming Rand for how my ex-friend interpreted a statement by Rand.

And -- as I made clear earlier in this thread -- I'd steered that ex-friend *only* to Rand's fiction (because I knew that my ex-friend enjoyed fiction and tended to avoid reading philosophy, politics, and other non-fiction writing). I did not -- as far as I recall -- even mention to my then-friend that Rand had written any non-fiction).

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Post 22

Wednesday, December 16, 2009 - 9:47pmSanction this postReply
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Kate,
Man is a tool user. The Hubble telescope and electron microscope. Machines for manipulating very large and very small objects. Eyeglasses are a trivial example of a minor tool. Your friend is being a bit dull. What is her opinion of Helen Keller? Also unworthy to be her friend I suppose. I have a co-worker who is from Cambodia. He tells me the Khmer Rouge peasant soldiers shot people wearing eyeglasses because they looked "educated".

Post 23

Thursday, December 17, 2009 - 3:01amSanction this postReply
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Mike,

You're story about the Khmer Rouge was one of those that are just so disheartening to hear - just an instantly depressing commentary on the weakness of reasoning found in some - far too many - people in the world. Strikes me sad.

Wish there were an effective way to 'inoculate' people with a core sense of respect for human life and rational values.

Couldn't sleep before, but think I'll crawl back into bed for an hour and start the day over again with (hopefully) a brighter outlook.

jt

Post 24

Thursday, December 17, 2009 - 5:05amSanction this postReply
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[My former friend] regards the wearing of eyeglasses in public as "unacceptably intruding a handicap into public view ... implicitly degrading the image of Man ...  Thrusting evidence of a visual handicap into the public view of healthy unhandicapped children and adults ...  ruinous to uncounted children's sense of life. ...
Now you know one reason that I was asking, a few months ago, about a statement by Rand on handicapped people.
Personally, I believe that we bring ourselves to our interactions with reality.  Reality rules in the final analysis, but somewhere short of that are many complicated subjects, which, before they can analyzed and understood, must first be grasped  intellectually.  I know objectively that my color vision is normal because as a pilot, I have it checked every two years (every year now that I am over 60).  Yet, I also know from common social experience that we disagree on whether an object is aquamarine or teal, dusty rose or sandstone pink.  That level of perception and identification is the basis for much disagreement.  The pyramid of complexity builds quickly.  You have no way to know easily what inside your friend was unlocked by the words of Ayn Rand.  She might not identify the elements easily. 

It is true that Ayn Rand said that people who are handicapped should not be presented to children.

Rand: [mid-sentence] "...for healthy children to use handicapped materials. I quite agree with the speaker's indignation. I think it's a monstrous thing — the whole progression of everything they're doing — to feature, or answer, or favor the incompetent, the retarded, the handicapped, including, you know, the kneeling buses and all kinds of impossible expenses. I do not think that the retarded should be ~allowed~ to come ~near~ children. Children cannot deal, and should not have to deal, with the very tragic spectacle of a handicapped human being. When they grow up, they may give it some attention, if they're interested, but it should never be presented to them in childhood, and certainly not as an example of something ~they~ have to live down to."
- Ayn Rand, The Age of Mediocrity, Q & A Ford Hall Forum, April, 1981
http://aynrandcontrahumannature.blogspot.com/2008/03/ayn-rand-quote-of-week-12308.html

 
 
But there are differences between  <everything in Ayn Rand's head> and <Objectivism>.

To me, a person's sense of life is more important than the correctness of their ideas, though that, too, is important.  You might never have noticed your former friend's implicit assumptions (sense of life) before.  Maybe you never saw her drunk.  I mean that.  We have many myths about drugs, especially alcohol, and one of them is to excuse people when they have been drinking because "they did not mean it" when they say or do hurtful things. It is the nature of alcohol to reduce inhibitions and submerge learned behaviors.  The way you are when you are drunk is the way you really are ... and Superman is a mean drunk...  So, too, with your friend and Ayn Rand. 

If she were a teenager, as many of us were, it would be appropriate to work your way through or around her misperceptions because of her immaturity and lack of worldly experience.  We live and learn.  For an adult to "suddenly" come to such views is really only the revealing of a hidden syndrome.  She really was like that all along.  You just never saw it, or just were never exposed to it.

As for "Ayn Rand versus the Handicapped," I point out that in 1981, Ayn Rand herself was far from her own peak of achievement and her spontaneous remarks -- while they, too, reveal the real person inside -- are not of the same character and quality as her earlier published essays.


Post 25

Thursday, December 17, 2009 - 7:32amSanction this postReply
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I indeed never saw my ex-friend drunk, as she doesn't drink. (Well, she never saw me drunk, either, as I very much dislike the effects of alcohol: "drinking" for me means sipping a few drops in response to a toast, which I can call "drinking" only because it isn't teetotalism.)

What she thinks of Helen Keller:
she thinks ill of Keller for several reasons --

partly because Keller was an active socialist who spent a lot of her time currying favor with FDR in order to gain White House support for educational or other goals that Keller valued (e.g., Keller led a petition to induce FDR to require all American publishers of material for the blind to use the same version of Braille instead of each publisher having its own Braille differing greatly from the Brailles of other publishers),

rather more because Keller in adulthood converted to a very mystical brand of Christianity (the Church of the New Jerusalem, a/k/a Swedenborgianism),

but mostly because my ex-friend regards Keller's career (and, even more so, she regards the way that schoolteachers, popular plays, etc., have presented Keller's life and career) as "an attempt to exalt handicaps over healthy normality ... by holding the handicapped up as examples of what to admire. If Helen Keller had merely done whatever good she did in life without being handicapped, she would not [my ex-friend believes] have been made famous ... if she had just been a healthy, normal person who had managed to improve the lot of the blind and deaf to whatever degree she was interested in doing this, she would certainly not have been thrust into the consciousness of every American schoolchild since the FDR administration."
As I said, my ex-friend admires Hawking ... but she admits that she'd admire him a lot more if he either kept his disability private or he just didn't have it. ("If Hawking's books were like Helen Keller's, books about being handicapped instead of books about actual achievements, I would not admire him no matter what he has achieved.")

About the Khmer Rouge using eyeglasses as a way to identify whom to kill off as intellectuals (apparently on the grounds that only people who spent their time reading would need, or want, eyeglasses) -- I actually mentioned that to my ex-friend, who disapproved because she disapproves of the initiation of force. ("I certainly don't support killing the handicapped; I don't even want there to be a law to keep the handicapped from being out there and assaulting our senses, I just believe that there is a right to freedom of association -- I would just like to see our culture become more aware that the handicapped are an eyesore. If the handicapped themselves could just awaken to this, and definitely if the general public could awaken, our culture's aesthetic standards would improve and we wouldn't need laws about the matter because the exercise of free choice would solve the situation. Once the handicapped themselves could see what an offense they are to others, the handicapped and their caretakers would voluntarily make the necessary choices to keep from generating offense.") !?!?!?

Post 26

Thursday, December 17, 2009 - 7:40amSanction this postReply
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Knowing that Rand (even at her worst) had a lot better sense than my ex-friend, I wish that the unknown questioner in 1981 (or someone else at the same forum) had gone on to ask Rand:

"Given your conclusion that seeing a handicapped person risks impairing a child's sense of life, how shall we preserve the sense of life of those children who themselves are handicapped?"

Post 27

Thursday, December 17, 2009 - 7:51amSanction this postReply
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I, too, "wish there were an effective way to 'inoculate' people with a core sense of respect for human life and rational values."

Does anyone know of effective (or even partially effective) means to do so?

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Post 28

Thursday, December 17, 2009 - 12:08pmSanction this postReply
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This thread is too depressing for words. I certainly hope that this person doesn't try to promulgate her views as being representative of Objectivism. If she ever gets to be an activist she'll want to send out letters to all handicapped people to beg them to stay indoors. Jeez, I wear eyeglasses, have a hearing aid and am bald. I wanna go outside and enjoy the sunshine. This is just one step below the fashion police.

Sam


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Post 29

Thursday, December 17, 2009 - 3:13pmSanction this postReply
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Kate:

Has she seen the comments on this thread? If not, maybe she should be exposed to the opinions of real Objectivists.

Sam


Post 30

Thursday, December 17, 2009 - 11:39amSanction this postReply
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Well we could start teaching kids about fallacious aruments about the time they started learning phonics. That way the children would have a sound structure to base there judgement on. In the old days of elementary school we were taught the scientific method. Hypothesis, Experiment, Conclusion. It was only later that the appeal to emotion became so popular.
As far as exposing children to Handicapped people. What about the evening news with mudslides and abuctions? Shielding children from the realities of life handicaps their developing objectivity, as would forcing them to view the gruesome.
As far as inhibitions go they appear to be a condition induce by a fear of reprisal. If one is honest does one need inhibitions? Your friend being so honest with you about her standards what is a handicap sounds like a matter of her personal taste. A definition of Honesty is being able to describe ones reality to the best of ones ability. Is your friend subjective or objective and would she know the difference?  


Post 31

Thursday, December 17, 2009 - 4:40pmSanction this postReply
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They do start teaching elementary school children about fallacies, at least in NJ public schools. They teach the difference between facts and opinions.

The statement that "global warming is bad" is a fact.

The statement that "I like vanilla ice cream" is an opinion.

Post 32

Thursday, December 17, 2009 - 5:26pmSanction this postReply
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Kate,

Why don't you send an email to your ex-friend, inviting her onto this forum? Who knows, I might enjoy interacting with her.

Ed


Post 33

Thursday, December 17, 2009 - 5:52pmSanction this postReply
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What is it with you and trolls, Ed?

Post 34

Thursday, December 17, 2009 - 6:50pmSanction this postReply
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I've tried to persuade her to come here. She rather condescendingly declined. (Oh, and she certainly didn't want to hear about Rand needing glasses.)

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Post 35

Thursday, December 17, 2009 - 6:55pmSanction this postReply
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Chicken!

If her argument has any merit, certainly it can stand up to us, right?  If her argument turns out to be true, everyone's better off.  Discovering you're mistaken is a wonderful relief.

(Edited by Teresa Summerlee Isanhart on 12/17, 6:56pm)


Post 36

Thursday, December 17, 2009 - 7:23pmSanction this postReply
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Bwahk, bwahk, bwahk!

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Post 37

Thursday, December 17, 2009 - 7:31pmSanction this postReply
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Ted,

What is it with you and trolls, Ed?
It may have something to do with me being a Taurus, which is kind of like an Aries on steroids:

"When the eldest and largest of them attempts to cross, the troll comes out to seize him but is gored by his horns and knocked into the river. From then on the bridge is safe, and all three goats are able to go to the rich fields around the summer farm in the hills."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Billy_Goats_Gruff

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 12/17, 7:32pm)


Post 38

Thursday, December 17, 2009 - 7:39pmSanction this postReply
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Okay, but please mud wrestle in Dissent if it comes to that.

Post 39

Thursday, December 17, 2009 - 9:19pmSanction this postReply
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Teresa and Ed -- your evaluation of my ex-friend's recently revealed moral/intellectual cowardice matches mine.

Ed -- I never expected that an Objectivist would find astrology valid. Do you indeed hold that position? If so, would you please let me know what led you to that position?

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