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Sunday, November 1, 2009 - 3:41pmSanction this postReply
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Rand's LEXICON includes the following example of sacrifice:

http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/sacrifice.html

"If a mother buys food for her hungry child rather than a hat for herself, it is not a sacrifice: she values the child higher than the hat; but it is a sacrifice to the kind of mother whose higher value is the hat, who would prefer her child to starve and feeds him only from a sense of duty."

Assume that such a mother goes shopping for a hat (taking her starving son with her, to save the expense of a babysitter). On their way to the hat shop, each time they pass a supermarket or a McDonald's, the boy asks her to buy food.
(Or it doesn't have to be food: perhaps they pass a school uniform/school supplies store and Lenscrafters, and the boy reminds his mother that he requires a new school uniform and certain school supplies for the school she has him attend, and that he hasn't had an eye exam in a year although he has daily presented her with excellent evidence that his vision is rapidly worsening. We'll assume that the boy doesn't whine for his food/eye exam/school supplies/etc., but presents his case logically.)

The mother refuses, explaining: "Yes, at one time I would have forgone a new hat and would have instead met the needs you express -- only from a sense of duty. However, that was three years ago before I learned of Ayn Rand and read her LEXICON. Thanks to Ayn Rand, I now realize that -- given the kind of woman I am -- it would actually be self-sacrificial and therefore immoral for me to continue making sacrifices by continuing to purchase goods and services for you, whom I value rather less than a hat."

QUESTIONS:

/1/
Is the woman acting morally by acting on her values and no longer sacrificing her greater value (a new hat) for a lesser (caring for her son)?

/2/
After the boy hears his mother's response, would the boy be acting morally or immorally by attempting further to persuade his mother to return to her former habit (a sacrificial habit, for her) of taking care of her son before buying another hat?


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Post 1

Sunday, November 1, 2009 - 4:44pmSanction this postReply
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(Bold is mine)

“Duty”

One of the most destructive anti-concepts in the history of moral philosophy is the term “duty.”

An anti-concept is an artificial, unnecessary and rationally unusable term designed to replace and obliterate some legitimate concept. The term “duty” obliterates more than single concepts; it is a metaphysical and psychological killer: it negates all the essentials of a rational view of life and makes them inapplicable to man’s actions . . . .

The meaning of the term “duty” is: the moral necessity to perform certain actions for no reason other than obedience to some higher authority, without regard to any personal goal, motive, desire or interest.

It is obvious that that anti-concept is a product of mysticism, not an abstraction derived from reality. In a mystic theory of ethics, “duty” stands for the notion that man must obey the dictates of a supernatural authority. Even though the anti-concept has been secularized, and the authority of God’s will has been ascribed to earthly entities, such as parents, country, State, mankind, etc., their alleged supremacy still rests on nothing but a mystic edict. Who in hell can have the right to claim that sort of submission or obedience? This is the only proper form—and locality—for the question, because nothing and no one can have such a right or claim here on earth.

The arch-advocate of “duty” is Immanuel Kant; he went so much farther than other theorists that they seem innocently benevolent by comparison. “Duty,” he holds, is the only standard of virtue; but virtue is not its own reward: if a reward is involved, it is no longer virtue. The only moral motivation, he holds, is devotion to duty for duty’s sake; only an action motivated exclusively by such devotion is a moral action . . . .

If one were to accept it, the anti-concept “duty” destroys the concept of reality: an unaccountable, supernatural power takes precedence over facts and dictates one’s actions regardless of context or consequences.

“Duty” destroys reason: it supersedes one’s knowledge and judgment, making the process of thinking and judging irrelevant to one’s actions.

“Duty” destroys values: it demands that one betray or sacrifice one’s highest values for the sake of an inexplicable command—and it transforms values into a threat to one’s moral worth, since the experience of pleasure or desire casts doubt on the moral purity of one’s motives.

“Duty” destroys love: who could want to be loved not from “inclination,” but from “duty”?

“Duty” destroys self-esteem: it leaves no self to be esteemed.

If one accepts that nightmare in the name of morality, the infernal irony is that “duty” destroys morality. A deontological (duty-centered) theory of ethics confines moral principles to a list of prescribed “duties” and leaves the rest of man’s life without any moral guidance, cutting morality off from any application to the actual problems and concerns of man’s existence. Such matters as work, career, ambition, love, friendship, pleasure, happiness, values (insofar as they are not pursued as duties) are regarded by these theories as amoral, i.e., outside the province of morality. If so, then by what standard is a man to make his daily choices, or direct the course of his life?

In a deontological theory, all personal desires are banished from the realm of morality; a personal desire has no moral significance, be it a desire to create or a desire to kill. For example, if a man is not supporting his life from duty, such a morality makes no distinction between supporting it by honest labor or by robbery. If a man wants to be honest, he deserves no moral credit; as Kant would put it, such honesty is “praiseworthy,” but without “moral import.” Only a vicious represser, who feels a profound desire to lie, cheat and steal, but forces himself to act honestly for the sake of “duty,” would receive a recognition of moral worth from Kant and his ilk.
This is the sort of theory that gives morality a bad name.

"Causality vs. Duty,"  Philosophy: Who Needs It? - Ayn Rand.

/1/
Is the woman acting morally by acting on her values and no longer sacrificing her greater value (a new hat) for a lesser (caring for her son)?


No. She isn't acting from a sense of rational value.

/2/
After the boy hears his mother's response, would the boy be acting morally or immorally by attempting further to persuade his mother to return to her former habit (a sacrificial habit, for her) of taking care of her son before buying another hat?


He would be acting rationally, thus, morally.


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Post 2

Sunday, November 1, 2009 - 4:47pmSanction this postReply
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Kate,

***********************
/1/
Is the woman acting morally by acting on her values and no longer sacrificing her greater value (a new hat) for a lesser (caring for her son)?
***********************

No. She's wrong not because of not following her values, but by not organizing them correctly. Think of a drug junkie who values a hit of cocaine more than he values his freedom -- so he robs people to get what he values (ending up in jail or dead).

He is not being moral, not because he isn't chasing values, but because he is organizing them incorrectly. Like the deranged mother in your example, his value hierarchy is, itself, immoral. In both cases, a subjective standard of value is used in stead of an objective standard. It rings with post-modern moral nihilism (existentialism).

Even the worst person in the world has at least an implicit value hierarchy (and chases values).


***********************
/2/
After the boy hears his mother's response, would the boy be acting morally or immorally by attempting further to persuade his mother to return to her former habit (a sacrificial habit, for her) of taking care of her son before buying another hat?
***********************

I'm not sure that an answer to this question is indicated, because this question is predicated on a faulty premise in question #1.

Ed

Post 3

Sunday, November 1, 2009 - 5:21pmSanction this postReply
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Okay, Ed -- suppose that the mother makes clear to her son (or that she had made clear upon first reading -- and making her derangedly partial application of -- Rand):

"From now on, the only way I will ever feed you, or take you to the eye-doctor (or other doctor), or buy your school supplies or uniforms, would be either out of duty or out of a momentary whim. (If at some moment I chance to feel like buying you eyeglasses instead of a hat -- or if I don't like the hats on sale -- I'll buy you eyeglasses. If not, not.) To get me to do something I value less than a hat, you'll have to persuade me either to change back into an altruist or to change further into a whim-worshiper, on the hope that my whims may occasionally chance to include random acts of sometimes caring for you: because I will simply not listen to any persuasion aimed at changing my hierarchy of values into a new [more rational] hierarchy that would make your care non-sacrificial by prioritizing that care above a new hat. If you want to get your needs met, you must persuade me to meet them on non-rational grounds such as duty/altruism or whim, because rational argument 'cuts no ice' with me unless it agrees with something I already like to do. Therefore, if you aim to get food, eyeglasses, etc., out of me -- for the most highly rational reasons, I will presume -- your only hope of persuading me is to use non-rational arguments. I will quite probably listen if you tell me: 'God told me to tell you to get me that eye exam, or else you will roast forever in Hell while baby demons pull all your hats apart and teethe on your eyeballs' -- but I assuredly shall NOT listen to reason, let alone to whatever physical force you might apply, because I just don't feel like it!"

To gain a rational value, then (food, eyeglasses, etc.), the kid in this tough situation must therefore resort to acting non-rationally (because he has good reason to believe that non-rational 'arguments' have better odds of working with his mother than valid arguments). Would it, in this situation, then be rational for the child to make non-rational statements (such as talking about God and Hell) in order to achieve a rational value that he cannot otherwise achieve?
(Edited by Kate Gladstone on 11/01, 5:43pm)


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Post 4

Sunday, November 1, 2009 - 5:23pmSanction this postReply
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/1/
Is the woman acting morally by acting on her values and no longer sacrificing her greater value (a new hat) for a lesser (caring for her son)?

Howsabout this:
"Concern for the welfare of those one loves is a rational part of one’s selfish interests. If a man who is passionately in love with his wife spends a fortune to cure her of a dangerous illness, it would be absurd to claim that he does it as a “sacrifice” for her sake, not his own, and that it makes no difference to him, personally and selfishly, whether she lives or dies."

Regarding the mother valuing a hat over her child's welfare:

"The rational principle of conduct is the exact opposite: always act in accordance with the hierarchy of your values, and never sacrifice a greater value to a lesser one."

"This applies to all choices, including one’s actions toward other men. It requires that one possess a defined hierarchy of rational values (values chosen and validated by a rational standard). Without such a hierarchy, neither rational conduct nor considered value judgments nor moral choices are possible.

By Objectivist standards, no, the mother WOULD be acting IMMORALLY.

Post 5

Sunday, November 1, 2009 - 6:49pmSanction this postReply
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Kate,

The theoretical in post 3 flies in the face of everything Rand wrote. When a burglar uses restraint, he isn't being "altruistic."   When an alcoholic tries to stop drinking, that isn't a form of altruism. When a wife beater attempts to control his temper, he isn't acting with altruistic motives.  For a value to have any meaning, an objective standard has to be in place to define it. 

To understand your point, explain the objective standard of the hat over the child. Then explain how Objectivism rationalizes that standard.  You'll be hard pressed.


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Post 6

Sunday, November 1, 2009 - 8:38pmSanction this postReply
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Kate,

Would it, in this situation, then be rational for the child to make non-rational statements (such as talking about God and Hell) in order to achieve a rational value that he cannot otherwise achieve?
Holy Kahmohlee, is that ever a doozy!

You know, it may be that this child -- I can't believe I'm saying this -- it may be that this child would be best served by acting totally irrational. His or her only hope is that the behavior doesn't imprint into his or her psychology past childhood. Children are pretty helpless for much of their childhood, reliant upon their parents.

They say to be careful when you do battle with monsters -- lest you, yourself, become one. Yet being a temporary "monster" may be the only way for this kid to survive to the age where independent, rational action (and the full life it promises) becomes possible.

Ed



Post 7

Sunday, November 1, 2009 - 11:54pmSanction this postReply
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Ed -- I've sanctioned you for Post 6.

You write:

... it may be that this child -- I can't believe I'm saying this -- it may be that this child would be best served by acting totally irrational. His or her only hope is that the behavior doesn't imprint into his or her psychology past childhood. ... be careful when you do battle with monsters -- lest you, yourself, become one. Yet being a temporary "monster" may be the only way for this kid to survive to the age where independent, rational action (and the full life it promises) becomes possible.

I'll go with that!
So assume that the child reaches the same conclusion --
that he must become a "temporary monster"
(acting totally irrational, e.g.,
playing the part of a mystic)
in order to have a chance of surviving long enough
to get the chance to act rationally
and thereby to have a chance of gaining
the rewards that a rational life makes possible:
rewards that will, if he attains them, come much later to him
than to some other more fortunate person
who didn't have to wait so long for a chance to act rationally.

Once the child reaches this conclusion --

that he must ignore his reason for some years,
perhaps for a decade or longer,
in order to eventually have the possibility of acting
on whatever reason he still possesses by then --

what else does he need to know and to do
(throughout the years, perhaps throughout a decade or more,
of knowingly and intentionally surviving by unreason)
in order to retain the capacity and the willingness
to act upon reason once -- at long last --
he starts to have any chance whatsoever to do that?
(Edited by Kate Gladstone on 11/01, 11:57pm)


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Post 8

Monday, November 2, 2009 - 6:47amSanction this postReply
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yet - be careful of the mask that is put on.... if worn too long, however effective it be in preserving for survival, it may be decades before it can be pulled fully from the face - and even then, residue remains to haunt...

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Post 9

Monday, November 2, 2009 - 12:33pmSanction this postReply
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Interesting and thought-provoking hypothetical, Kate. Sanctioned it.

1) I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here. However hopelessly screwed up the woman's values are from my perspective, she is acting morally from the perspective of her standards of value, but immorally from the perspective of my standards of value. That is, there is not a single, objectively definable set of values that apply to everyone, everywhere.

The value of any object or any person is subjective -- it is worth TO THE PERSON INVOLVED, AT THE TIME THEY MAKE THE DECISION, what he or she thinks it is worth. A glass of water can be worth virtually nothing, or be worth everything you have if you are dying of thirst in a desert.

One may later regret that instantaneous valuation as one's values shift or experience knocks one upside the head, but that doesn't change the subjective nature of the value at the time for the person in question.

And, since the woman places such a horrendously low value on her child, if she continues to maintain that value then perhaps the solution is to have the child be adopted by someone who puts a higher value on that particular human life.

Finally, arguably the woman is placing a higher value on her child's life than a woman who has an abortion. However much she is mistreating the child, she is not killing him or her.

2) The child would be acting morally in trying to advance his or her best interests, using whatever power of persuasion they have to change the mother's mind.

If the child can persuade the mother that it is in her enlightened self-interest to take better care of her child, that would be best. But, if that fails, perhaps the child should tell their neighbors about the situation and try to get help being put up for adoption, by grandparents or whoever.
(Edited by Jim Henshaw on 11/02, 12:50pm)


Post 10

Monday, November 2, 2009 - 12:48pmSanction this postReply
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Would it, in this situation, then be rational for the child to make non-rational statements (such as talking about God and Hell) in order to achieve a rational value that he cannot otherwise achieve?

Holy Kahmohlee, is that ever a doozy!

You know, it may be that this child -- I can't believe I'm saying this -- it may be that this child would be best served by acting totally irrational.


I would disagree that this is irrational behavior on the child's part. They would be using logic and reason to try to manipulate their mother into doing the right thing that advances their best interests.

Arguably, that statement would be immoral and hypocritical if the child didn't believe a word they were saying but lied and said they did believe these things, but it would still be rational behavior. Rationality and morality are separate, albeit usually closely related, things.

Now, if the child were to say that they personally didn't believe in either God or Hell, but rather argued that based on the mother's past beliefs, acting in the child's best interests would coincide with those past beliefs, and that based on the premise of the truthfulness of those previous beliefs of the mother it would be in her rational self-interest to help her child to avoid going to hell, that wouldn't be a lie or immoral.

In fact, if you've spent much time around Mormons (and a lot of other flavors of Christianity to some extent), you would see that their belief system results in them doing a lot of good things and embracing good values, because they want to get to the best Heaven, the Celestial Kingdom, and to get there they believe they have to do their best to be oh so nice and good and kind to everyone.

And, to Godwin the thread a bit, it is not necessarily immoral to lie to someone who is about to commit a hideous act, if that lie would prevent the hideous act from occurring. For example, it is not immoral to lie to Nazis toting recently fired guns who are asking you if you have seen any Jews in hiding, for example.

Post 11

Monday, November 2, 2009 - 1:09pmSanction this postReply
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To give a concrete, real life example of the subjectivity of the appropriate levels of child care:

My son has some Samoan friends from his football team whose parents are homeless. The homeless kids are having a rough time of things obviously, though they are not whiners or complainers. They are dealing with a bad situation as best they can, getting a few hours of sleep each night at an auntie's house or whatnot.

I don't know the parent's situation, though I do know they are LDS, so I suspect that the parents, based on the LDS Church's teachings, have had more children than they can support easily. That, in combination with tithing 10% of their income to the Church, and the Church's insistence that the mother should not go out and get a job, but should stay at home and take care of her children, could be making the difference between homelessness or not. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, I'm going to assume that the parents have the best of intentions, but have been pushed into making some difficult, hard choices based on the values taught them, but that they are in any event acting on deeply held values that to some people are laudable and to others, not so much so.

My wife, being the kind-hearted person she is, has the kids over at our house a lot, feeding them and letting them sleep over from time to time. My kids are having a huge time playing with the Samoans.

Me, being the curmudgeon that I am, grumble a bit about having our house being invaded by these interlopers, but doing much more would result in a precipitous decline in the quantity and quality of my sex life, so I mostly shut up and let it ride.

Some questions:

Were the parents of these kids acting immorally because of the foreseeable outcome of their decisions, especially if they could end the homelessness by abandoning some Church principles, such as choosing not to tithe 10% of their income or by letting the mother get a job?

And is my wife acting altruistically in funneling resources to kids who are not genetically related to her?

And am I acting immorally or altruistically in not putting a stop to what is an irritating source of marital tension that is making my life less pleasant?

Or is everyone here acting in accordance to moral values?

Post 12

Monday, November 2, 2009 - 1:25pmSanction this postReply
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Re:

be careful of the mask that is put on.... if worn too long, however effective it be in preserving for survival, it may be decades before it can be pulled fully from the face - and even then, residue remains to haunt...


I'll sanction that (as soon as I finish typing this).

Granted that "residue remains to haunt" --
once the child grows up
(with whatever psycho/spiritual "residue" remaining, that won't come off)
would the presence of such irremovable "residue" make him ineligible for Galt's Gulch
(if the place existed, and if his achievements had otherwise warranted an invitation)?

Post 13

Monday, November 2, 2009 - 2:00pmSanction this postReply
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Let me return a volley, Jim, to your "Devil's Advocate" (the best job-description that the Catholic Church ever first created, then abolished: look it up on Wikipedia) ...

Re:

And, since the woman places such a horrendously low value on her child, if she continues to maintain that value then perhaps the solution is to have the child be adopted by someone who puts a higher value on that particular human life. ... If [persuasion] fails, perhaps the child should tell ... neighbors about the situation and try to get help being put up for adoption, by grandparents or whoever

This may not always prove possible: particularly if the woman lives in a society whose laws and customs hold that everyone who has children has a right to try to raise these children as s/he sees fit.
(What if this woman inhabits a 100% libertarian society, for instance? The child's aunt or grandmother or schoolteacher offers to adopt him -- the mother and father say "No, thank you -- we are raising our boy exactly as we see fit, and no one has a right to take him away from us." Presumably a libertarian government cannot then compel an adoption to take place, particularly if the boy's parents are still alive, are keeping him [barely] alive, and agree in rejecting the offer of an adoption.)

Re:

Finally, arguably the woman is placing a higher value on her child's life than a woman who has an abortion. However much she is mistreating the child, she is not killing him or her.

One could say the same of a comprachico.
Suppose that the child's parent[s] not only mistreat the boy, but mistreat him in such a manner as to make it vastly unlikely that he will ever become independent and fully rational?

Suppose, for instance, that Mom and Dad keep the boy alive *precisely* because they get their jollies out of seeing all the fun new ways they can contrive to mind-warp him without actually ever going quite far enough to violate any law? ... (E.g., some sex-offenders, who've had or adopted children for the purpose of "fun and games," actually have spent a lot of time read up on the laws in order to find just what they can do to their own children without actually crossing some legal line.)

... or suppose they are rearing him to become, and remain, a handy terrified lifelong house-slave (in actuality, though not actually called such) and absolutely nothing more? (cases of this sort do exist -- and the kids don't always escape)

Would you (in your capacity of Devil's Advocate) argue that life under such conditions has so many advantages over death in infancy (or death _in_utero_) that we can indeed justify it by saying "Well, at least his parents haven't actually killed him"?
.

Post 14

Monday, November 2, 2009 - 2:52pmSanction this postReply
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It need not, Kate - but can, in moments of out-of-context despair, bring forth great doubts, and a sense of again being in that nether world of long ago - until the contexts come back, sometimes quickly, sometimes with great effort, but never without remembering the pains...

Post 15

Monday, November 2, 2009 - 5:01pmSanction this postReply
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Kate, I agree that it is not always possible for a minor to get out of a less than ideal situation. Sometimes the minor just has to suck it up and wait till they are capable of striking out on their own.

I think even the most libertarian society possible would set SOME limits on a parent's right to raise their child as they see fit -- the parent doesn't have the right to kill the child, to take an extreme example. But, the more libertarian a society, the more latitude they will give the parents to use the values they want.

As for the parents declining to give up a child for adoption despite not valuing the child -- that is where running away enters the equation. The child is not the parent's property, and can seek other arrangements despite not having reached the age of majority.

Our statist government in fact makes this option of leaving much harder, due to child labor laws, minimum wage laws, mandatory schooling laws, and other barriers to a child choosing to become self-sufficient in a terrible family situation.

Post 16

Monday, November 2, 2009 - 5:46pmSanction this postReply
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Running away can solve the problem -- in a society where runaways can legally work.

Of course, an abusive parent (like any other) may have a child who can't run away -- there was one legal case a few years ago where a sex-offender had "lovingly" adopted a crippled three-year-old girl, specifically so that he would have a child who conveniently could not escape his "love" and the "love" of his friends to whom he offered her as party entertainment.

This is, of course, no indictment of anything that Jim has said -- because anything that can exist in the real world (including a social or legal system) has limits to its existence and power, any social system, legal system, or other system will (it appears to me) sooner or later run into a "KOBAYASHI MARU scenario": a situation beyond the system's power to accommodate or to solve.

I don't deny that I enjoy exploring KOBAYASHI MARUs -- with the hope of finding some way to resolve them nonetheless!

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