About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Forward one pageLast Page


Post 60

Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 4:59pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Where does one get those searchable CD's?

Post 61

Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 5:23pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

Ed,

Was it Armand Hammer? I recall Peikoff saying bad things about him in a Q&A or on his radio show.



Post 62

Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 5:47pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I vaguely recall Rand saying bad things about Armand Hammer, due to his deals in Russia, but his name is not on the CD-ROM.

Steve W.: http://www.amazon.com/Objectivism-Research-CD-Rom-Works/dp/0971178704

(Edited by Merlin Jetton on 1/28, 5:55pm)


Post 63

Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 5:48pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ok Jon L that sounds reasonable. I wouldn't agree that just having piles of cash means one is virtuous. It depends entirely on how that money was acquired.

However, to judge whether selling heroin is virtuous or not should not depend upon the income of the seller. So I would say going on about heroin sellers not making a lot of money if it is decriminalized is a red herring. I personally don't think the heroin seller would necessarily be a scumbag if heroin selling was legal. If I started to pick and choose who I call a scumbag based on the inherent danger of the product (presuming also the consumer is made aware of those dangers) I would have to consider myself a scumbag for selling alcohol in my restaurant. And I don't consider myself one.

Ted:

John, if you don't care what other people care about who will make what, then why do you ask?


That's not what I said or asked. I did not say I did not care what other people care about. I asked why do people care what other people make.

Post 64

Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 7:00pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

Whether what I said was what you asked or not you did not answer. So why do you ask why people care what people make? Do you care? If you don't, why do you ask? If you do, then why do you ask why others do?

(Edited by Ted Keer on 1/28, 7:01pm)


Post 65

Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 7:33pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
(sigh) Ted:

Whether what I said was what you asked or not you did not answer.


I did not answer because your question assumed I didn't care to understand why other people were talking about what a heroin seller would make if it were legal. Which was an incorrect assumption. My question was why do people care what other people make. Do you understand?

So why do you ask why people care what people make? Do you care? If you don't, why do you ask? If you do, then why do you ask why others do?


I asked because I didn't understand the motivation over discussing how much money a heroin seller would make should heroin be legal.

Why do care to know whether I care or not care why other people care what other people make? Do you care? If you don't, why do you ask why I care to know whether I care or not care why other people care what other people make?



(Edited by John Armaos on 1/28, 7:41pm)


Post 66

Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 8:21pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

Oh, so now you have to bring your disgusting bodily functions into it? Do you sigh like a 10 year old girl when you don't get your way in real life? (Yes, I realize that is an insult to 10 year old girls with better self control than John.) Please keep your metrosexual whining to yourself.

Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 67

Wednesday, January 28, 2009 - 9:01pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I see what you're saying, John. Your earlier explanation made sense, also. Disgusting bodily functions? How do you cope when someone burps, Ted?

Post 68

Saturday, August 29, 2009 - 9:33amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Concerning my ongoing tiff with Jon about the profits of heroin dealers ...

Thanks to this report from Luke Setzer, I can finally get out of my armchair and show Jon that I was on the right track. The important part:
Lifetime heroin use among 16-to-18-year-olds fell from 2.5% to 1.8% (although there was a slight increase in marijuana use in that age group).
Recap:
Drug decriminalization -- in just the first 5 years -- in Portugal led to almost a one-third drop in any heroin use (by age 18). Drugs that are better (or 'less bad') for you than heroin, such as marijuana, began to compete better in this more-free market. Heroin dealers in the Portugal market lost (some) revenue.

My premises were these:
1) heroin dealers are rich now, but not because they make a good product that most folks want
2) heroin dealers don't have a large market
3) heroin dealers are rich now because of artificially-inflated prices they are able to charge
4) in a free market, this artificial inflation will vanish
5) in a free market, the number of heroin suppliers will dramatically increase
6) in a free market, the information of how bad heroin can be for you will increase
7) in a free market, alternatives to heroin will increase
8) in a free market, the number of heroin users will not dramatically increase

#1 is true because most folks don't want heroin
#2 is true because of #1
#3 is true because of #2
#4 is indicated by the evidence in Portugal
#5 is not yet indicated -- let alone validated -- by the reported evidence in the link
#6 is validated by the evidence in Portugal
#7 is validated by the evidence in Portugal
#8 is validated by the evidence in Portugal

Stick that in your arm and shoot it, Jon!

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 8/29, 9:38am)


Post 69

Sunday, August 30, 2009 - 12:59amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit


“I [Ed] was on the right track”

And what track is that? I recall that my exception was to your belief that no one could stay rich in the heroin business post legalization.

What have you got toward this thesis? I don’t see anything in the latest posting.


Post 70

Sunday, August 30, 2009 - 7:02amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I'm not about to get into the middle of this, but the situation described in Portugal isn't a free market, Ed.

Post 71

Sunday, August 30, 2009 - 9:13amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jon,

I said that heroin dealing folks making billionaire fortunes now, couldn't keep doing it in a free market. If you get so pedantic as to lose the point entirely, then you'll argue that heroin dealers who get out of the business and invest in the stock market stay billionaires -- supposedly proving me wrong.

It's not the fact that they can stay rich.

That's not my point. My point is that they cannot continue staying so rich -- to the point of being billionaires -- by dealing heroin on a free market. This is because there is something wrong with heroin which would prevent such a large profit from getting made -- it wouldn't have great market value. There isn't going to be some genetic change in humans which somehow makes heroin a really good value. It's not a great value, Jon. Forward thinking producers -- by offering better alternatives for less -- would prove this.

The evidence in Portugal points to this thesis.


Ryan,

Right. That's why I said "more-free" market. In a totally free market, heroin demand would drop even more as would heroin profits -- because supply would be greater. If you simultaneously increase supply while dropping demand, you get lower prices. If you cannot lower production costs enough to make up for this deficit, then you get lower profits. That's my whole point.

Ed

Post 72

Sunday, August 30, 2009 - 11:03amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
What mechanism are you thinking would cause demand to seriously drop with decriminalization? I can only think of one, morbid, mechanism that would account for it.

Post 73

Sunday, August 30, 2009 - 12:53pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Ryan,

The mechanism is simple learning via exposure. Greater exposure to the effects of heroin would lead to reduced demand. Like altruism, the reason that heroin is thought to be "popular" or "cool" or "fun" is because folks don't normally see what it does.

If you spent time with heroin addicts then you would understand. Instead of becoming friends with a heroin addict -- in order to see what I mean -- perhaps I can recommend a movie: Requiem for a Dream.

Watch that movie once, and let me know if you feel like trying even a little bit of heroin (or recommending it to any friends or even to any of your enemies).

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 8/30, 12:58pm)


Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 5, No Sanction: 0
Post 74

Sunday, August 30, 2009 - 1:14pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Being popular or cool or fun is not an attribute confered strictly by legality. That is also not the ONLY reason that people do heroin. Some do it because it feels great for a while. I'm not saying that you're wrong regarding declining use in this scenario, but the "Everyone is doing it because its illegal" premise seems flawed.

Come on, Ed. We both know you're practically an expert on online forum debate. "I've known some guys." and "I saw this movie." aren't arguments. Besides, I think we're both on the same page regarding heroin being a really bad idea for a lot of reasons.


Post 75

Sunday, August 30, 2009 - 3:10pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I just watched Drugstore Cowboy. The cinematography is great.

Post 76

Sunday, August 30, 2009 - 5:12pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Re:

Even then, there would be problems that arise out [of] self-esteem issues.


Can you provide and discuss some examples?
Also -- do you think, as I do, that "self-esteem issues" can involve issues of having too much (because *unearned*) self-esteem, and not only issues of having too little?

Post 77

Sunday, August 30, 2009 - 5:50pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Kate,

I would be helpful if you offered some context to the quote; who wrote it, which post number it was from, etc.


Post 78

Sunday, August 30, 2009 - 6:13pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Kate,

Self-esteem is the automatic result of how one uses their consciousness. Use it correctly and self-esteem goes up, use it improperly and it goes down. Almost every conscious process has a capacity to effect the level of self-esteem even if it is minutely.

If a person acts to violate their personal integrity their self-esteem goes down. If they face reality instead of evading, it goes up. If they assume responsibility for their existence, it goes up, etc.

I've explained this to show that there is nothing here that would ever be "too much" - you can't use your consciousness too correctly. Some people mistake being overly aggressive for being appropriately assertive - they aren't the same thing. Some people mistake narcissism for self-esteem but they are nothing alike.

There can't be any such thing as "unearned self-esteem" - because it is automatic and beyond our control in that sense.

Here are the principles from an article by Branden:

1. Living Consciously:
Respect for facts; being present to what we are doing while we are doing it; seeking and being eagerly open to any information, knowledge, or feedback that bears on our interests, values, goals, and projects; seeking to understand not only the world external to self but also our inner world as well, so that we do not act out of self-blindness.

2. Self-acceptance:
The willingness to own, experience, and take responsibility for our thoughts, feelings, and actions, without evasion, denial, or disowning -- and also without self-repudiation; giving oneself permission to think one's thoughts, experience one's emotions, and look at one's actions without necessarily liking, endorsing or condoning them. If we are self-accepting, we do not experience ourselves as always "on trial," and what this leads to is non-defensiveness and willingness to hear critical feedback or different ideas without becoming hostile and adversarial.

3. Self-responsibility:
Realizing that we are the authors of our choices and actions; that each one of us is responsible for our life and well-being and for the attainment of our goals; that if we need the cooperation of other people to achieve our goals, we must offer values in exchange; and that the question is not "Who's to blame?" but always "What needs to be done?"

4. Self-assertiveness:
Being authentic in our dealings with others; treating our values and persons with decent respect in social contexts; refusing to fake the reality of who we are or what we esteem in order to avoid someone's disapproval; the willingness to stand up for ourselves and our ideas in appropriate ways in appropriate circumstances.

5. Living purposefully:
Identifying our short-term and long-term goals or purposes and the actions needed to attain them, organizing behavior in the service of those goals, monitoring action to be sure we stay on track -- and paying attention to outcome so as to recognize if and when we need to go back to the drawing-board.

6. Personal integrity:
Living with congruence between what we know, what we profess, and what we do; telling the truth, honoring our commitments, exemplifying in action the values we professes to admire; dealing with others fairly and benevolently.
------------

Self-esteem comes from those... no way to get it unearned.
Branden's article is here

(Edited by Steve Wolfer on 8/30, 6:26pm)


Post 79

Sunday, August 30, 2009 - 8:18pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Re Steve Wolfer's Post 78 --

Doubtless I gave the wrong name to the phenomenon I called (or miscalled) "unearned self-esteem." I will describe one instance of that phenomenon below, and will than ask what name you would give the phenomenon which that instance illustrates.

A 12-year-old schoolboy (we'll call him "Brad") sincerely regards himself as the smartest, strongest, best-informed, highest-achieving kid in the school -- in fact, as the smartest, strongest, best-informed, highest-achieving person anywhere -- although all the evidence suggests otherwise. (E.g., Brad can barely read or write) Because of Brad's academic and other failures, some abuse he survived at a previous school, etc. the school psychologist has prescribed that Brad's teachers and parents must "increase his self-esteem" (the psychologist's phrase, NOT mine since I've read Steve's posting!) by giving him unearned praise, unearned high grades on quizzes, homework, etc., and generally rigging things so that /a/ Brad will appear to succeed as often as possible, and /b/ Brad will learn to discount any feedback that suggests anything other than the innate and unimprovable perfection of Brad (somewhat as Lillian Rearden evilly advised calling an ugly woman beautiful).
After years of exceedingly careful (and expensive) psychoeducational manipulation, Brad sincerely (and insufferably) believes this (and glows with unearned pride in his non-existent achievements and excellences. You could say that he *thinks* he's Francisco D'Anconia, but he's not even Eddie Willers)..
We cannot, as Steve pointed out, call Brad's deluded state "too high self-esteem" -- so what shall we call his mental state? Too high ____[what?]____

(NOTE: Before you dismiss Brad as a sick fantasy -- I met him, in my professional capacity, some years ago. His psychologist had finally, in despair, canceled the "Brad-is-perfect-and-omniscient" treatment and ordered the adults in his life to start actually *teaching* him instead of worshiping him: I got the job of teaching him handwriting, which he refused to learn because he "knew" (falsely) that he performed this skill and all others to admiration. (His other teachers and tutors reported similar refusal to learn their own subjects or even to admit that the teachers and tutors knew anything whatsoever that Brad did not know. After all those years of "Brad's-the-greatest" hoopla, Brad rather understandably didn't buy -- very strongly opposed -- the sudden reversal of this policy.)

Post to this threadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.