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Post 40

Monday, April 28, 2008 - 10:52amSanction this postReply
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Ed,

Your first three truths, or rights, derive from the more fundamental right of the right to life.  The right to life means the right to own one's own life, and thus to use it as one chooses.  This in turn implies 1) the right to be free, since clearly one can use one's own life as one chooses only if one is free, 2) the right to the product of one's labor since this labor is the time and energy of one's life, and in turn the right to property since this time and energy of one's life is used in its creation and 3) the right to Eudaimonia, since if one owns one's life, one is free to choose one's pursuits.  These first three truths are actually the first three corollaries of the right to life on the way to laws of lower level of abstraction.  Therefore, there is actually one starting truth and the hierarchy must be formed from it, else other rights can not be properly derived.
I wrote,

However, it could be applied to the displacement of a person by force by writing it as "it shall be unlawful to require a person to mover more than a distance of ten feet under the threat of force" thus creating a law forbidding kidnapping, etc.
And you responded,     
This one is probably premature, as it could be used in order to prevent police from disbanding a rights-violating riot in the streets . . .
True.  This should be amended as " . . . of initiating the use of force . . . "  The first application should be amended in this way also. 
    
I wrote,  
 . . . however to help ensure the logical consistency of the legal code it would also seem that the most general political principles should also be included.
And you responded,
. . . I don't see any kind of a problem with balancing these 2 things . . .
I did not imply these two are exclusive, but complimentary, and showed both necessary to complete the full hierarchy of objective laws.
Given that all laws must be derived from the right to life through its application to circumstances of progressively lower levels of abstraction, until the level of existential concretes is reached, the problem of writing objective laws becomes the identification in the context of the current social system all those existential situations in which the right to life may be violated.  Since this would require the listing of a prohibitive number of laws, some level of generality in the legal code must be retained.  This point of generality will be determined by balancing the need for specificity against the burden of expanding the number of laws.  This is the governing principle to be followed in this derivation, and would be the standard by which the application of Aristotle's rational choice theory and Pareto Optimality would be applied, in that more laws are less choice worthy and make the society worse off by complicating the legal code beyond tractability, and less laws are more choice worthy and leave society better off by simplifying the legal code to easy application. 
(And of course the use of Aristotle's rational choice theory in the derivation of rights themselves from the right to life is superfluous since it is already implied by the condition of logical consistency with the right to life, since only those laws which were consistent with the fundamental right to life would be choice worthy, and any which were not would not be, and Pareto Optimality is superfluous here also since no law consistent with the right to life could make anyone worse off and any law inconsistent with it would.) 

I think this lays down the complete recipe for derivation.  What do you say?

Bob


Post 41

Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 11:56amSanction this postReply
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Just as after thought on the application of  this method. 
Since this method of writing objective laws must be applied in the context of a given existing society, it will create a correct result for that given society only at the time when it is applied.  Since the society will evolve with time it will be necessary to update the legal code periodically by reapplying this method.  For example, prior to the invention of the telephone, privacy laws needed only to protect against peeping toms, eavesdropping outside someone' door, etc. but after its invention addition laws would be necessary to prevent wiretapping, etc.  Also, the nature of a society may vary from one geographical point to another, thus requiring different laws within different regions, this given rise to the need for jurisdictions.  Thus, this method may need to be applied independently to different regions within the society. 


Post 42

Friday, May 2, 2008 - 3:25pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

I'll have to continue the discovery of objective rights, justice, and rule of law with you -- when I get some free time.

Just not now ...

Ed

Post 43

Saturday, May 3, 2008 - 10:55amSanction this postReply
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Robert,

These first three truths are actually the first three corollaries of the right to life on the way to laws of lower level of abstraction.  Therefore, there is actually one starting truth and the hierarchy must be formed from it, else other rights can not be properly derived.
Had I called the truths axioms, yes. They are corollaries of a more fundamental fact. I figured that simply because they are demonstrably true -- that we can start with them and move ahead with policy-making. Complete metaphysical formalization of this endeavor would include the right to life as you say. I didn't think we needed that much statement of the obvious, though.

I wrote,  

 . . . however to help ensure the logical consistency of the legal code it would also seem that the most general political principles should also be included.
And you responded,

. . . I don't see any kind of a problem with balancing these 2 things . . .
I did not imply these two are exclusive, but complimentary, and showed both necessary to complete the full hierarchy of objective laws.
Fair enough.

... the problem of writing objective laws becomes the identification in the context of the current social system all those existential situations in which the right to life may be violated.  Since this would require the listing of a prohibitive number of laws, some level of generality in the legal code must be retained. 
Good enough (for our purpose here).

This is the governing principle to be followed in this derivation, and would be the standard by which the application of Aristotle's rational choice theory and Pareto Optimality would be applied, in that more laws are less choice worthy and make the society worse off by complicating the legal code beyond tractability, and less laws are more choice worthy and leave society better off by simplifying the legal code to easy application.
Outstanding application.

(And of course the use of Aristotle's rational choice theory in the derivation of rights themselves from the right to life is superfluous since it is already implied by the condition of logical consistency with the right to life, since only those laws which were consistent with the fundamental right to life would be choice worthy, and any which were not would not be, and Pareto Optimality is superfluous here also since no law consistent with the right to life could make anyone worse off and any law inconsistent with it would.) 

I think this lays down the complete recipe for derivation.  What do you say?
I'm a yeah-sayer!

Ed


Post 44

Saturday, May 3, 2008 - 10:59amSanction this postReply
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Robert,

Since the society will evolve with time it will be necessary to update the legal code periodically by reapplying this method.  For example, prior to the invention of the telephone, privacy laws needed only to protect against peeping toms, eavesdropping outside someone' door, etc. but after its invention addition laws would be necessary to prevent wiretapping, etc.  

Also, the nature of a society may vary from one geographical point to another, thus requiring different laws within different regions, this given rise to the need for jurisdictions.  Thus, this method may need to be applied independently to different regions within the society.
I'm a little wary of the intentional legal pluralization here. Folks are different and, like Bentham (or was it Mill?) said, they should be free to experiment with different lifestyles. But it seems that you are already over-concretizing the thing -- even after you made the case it had to be kept pretty general and abstract.

Do you see why I'd say that?

Ed


Post 45

Monday, May 5, 2008 - 3:21pmSanction this postReply
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Mmmm ... not really.  The application of this principle to a given geographical region and time would control only those things unique to that region and time, ie. speed limits on highways, legal drinking age, etc. and would not exclude the choice of any given lifestyle which was consistent with the principles of individual rights upon which the legal code would be based.  Clearly, any lifestyle which was inconsistent with the principles of individual rights should be excluded, since it would violate rights.  This "pluralization" as you call it is a necessary consequence of the variation of the circumstances under which the principles of individual rights would be applied, since as these more general principles are brought down to the existential level, the specific circumstances present at specific times and places will become relevant to the application.  This is illustrated in my example of the invention of the telephone.   

Considering the notion of using corollaries of the right to life as starting points for the derivation of the objective legal code, such as the three truths you have selected, it would be possible to make this work, but only on the condition that the selected corollaries completely span the range of all possible rights, ie. that there is no right which can be derived from the right to life that can not also and equivalently be derived from the three truths, or some combination of them.  If you want to approach the problem in this manner, you must first show that this condition is met.  Rather than complicate the derivation of the objective legal code with this problem, I would suggest that it would be more efficiently created by simply starting with the right to life.  

(Edited by Robert E. Milenberg on 5/05, 3:38pm)


Post 46

Monday, May 5, 2008 - 3:34pmSanction this postReply
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Thinking about this a little further, it seems that Aristotle's theory of rational choice and the Pareto Optimality principle are actually applications of the virtue of selfishness.  This must be true since selfishness requires a value hierarchy and the stipulation that no value at a high position is ever traded for one at a lower position, and Aristotle's theory of rational choice requires the selection of superior choices over inferior ones and Pareto Optimality condition requires that no law should be passed that makes society worse clearly require a range of choices, which may in turn be assembled into a hierarchy, and stipulate the same condition.  Thus, the optimization of the generality and specificity of the objective legal code may be carried out through the direct application of the virtue of selfishness.  Let us use this virtue to optimize the legal code so as to reference only pure Objectivist notions, and thus keep the notions of these aliens out.
(Edited by Robert E. Milenberg on 5/05, 3:36pm)

(Edited by Robert E. Milenberg on 5/05, 3:44pm)


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