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Sunday, October 30, 2005 - 4:58pmSanction this postReply
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Is benevolence the basis for the assumption of innocence unless proven guilty? The benevolence I refer to is the treatment of unevaluated people as rational. (I would cite where I first saw that conception on this site, but have forgotten who explained it thus.)

Or, is the basis before the level of rational action, an epistemological assumption? One might say that assumption of guilt is a conclusion before its time or evidence.

While I realize that both might be cited, which is the stronger basis?


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Post 1

Sunday, October 30, 2005 - 5:56pmSanction this postReply
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Nicolas, I think that it's not so much a matter of benevolence as it's based on the idea that the burden of proof is on the one making the claim.

Post 2

Sunday, October 30, 2005 - 6:00pmSanction this postReply
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You nailed it Joe.

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Post 3

Sunday, October 30, 2005 - 6:40pmSanction this postReply
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I don't assume anything. I treat a person as if they are innocent until I know they are guilty.

What is the alternative? Treat people guilty even if you don't know if they are guilty? That's ridiculous.

Guilty of what?

Post 4

Thursday, November 3, 2005 - 1:25pmSanction this postReply
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The assumption of innocence proceeds from the epistemological principle that one cannot prove a negative, i.e. that one cannot prove that something does not exist or some event did not occur.  Only positives may be proven, thus the prosecutor must prove that the accused DID commit the crime.  Here is why.

What is proof? It is evidence, data, facts, which indicate that something exists or happened. That which does not exist, will not give rise to any evidence, it will not manifest itself in reality in any manner whatsoever. That which does not exist will not create any effects or traces on reality at all. Thus, there can never be evidence of non-existence.
 
Likewise, an event that did not take place will not give rise to any facts and will not create any manifestations that may be cited as proof.  One might be able to prove an alibi, but even then, all one has done is proven a positive: you have proven where you were at a certain time.



Nor does the lack of evidence of non-existence constitute proof of the existence of something. An absence cannot be cited as evidence of a presence. A lack of information cannot be cited as information about something elsle. An absence of facts cannot be interpreted as proof of the existence of anything.

These are all the reasons why one cannot prove a negative, and why, as Joe said, the burden of proof rests on the positive assertion.


To concretize this further, try to imagine what would be required to prove that you are not a murderer.  Can you prove where you have been every moment of your adult life, i.e. can you provide an alibi for all of that time? Can you prove you have never had access to something that could be used as a murder weapon, like a gun or a knife or a baseball bat or a car? Can you prove that you have never had a motive for murder, that you have never had a moment of hatred for another person?

Of course not. So, would we justified in reaching any conclusion about the fact that you cannot prove you are not a murderer, i.e. that you cannot prove a negative? No. We can draw no conclusion whatsoever.

 

This is also why the assertion offered by religious people that "You can't prove god does not exist" is irrelevant.



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Post 5

Friday, November 4, 2005 - 9:24amSanction this postReply
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Michael Smith wrote, "An absence cannot be cited as evidence of a presence. A lack of information cannot be cited as information about something else. An absence of facts cannot be interpreted as proof of the existence of anything."

I agree with this. But I'd like to raise a point that is sometimes overlooked in discussions of this sort. Suppose the prosecution presents evidence sufficient to warrant a conclusion that the accused is guilty, and the defense presents no counter-evidence - no challenge to the prosecution's case. In that event, we are justified in concluding that the accused is guilty, because there is no reason to doubt the evidence presented by the prosecution.

But suppose the defense does present counter-evidence - does present material that challenges the prosecution's case and thus creates a reasonable doubt as to the defendant's guilt. In that case, we are no longer justified in concluding that the defendant is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

In the first case, we are justified in concluding that the defendant is guilty, because of the absence of any evidence that he is innocent. All the evidence supports his conviction and none contradicts it. In the second case, we are no longer justified in concluding that the defendant is guilty, because of the presence of information that challenges the evidence presented by the prosecution.

To be sure, the absence of evidence presented by the defense is not evidence for the prosecution; the prosecution must have independent evidence that the accused is guilty. But the absence of evidence against the prosecution's case can make a difference in whether or not it is reasonable to conclude that the defendant is innocent or guilty.

A short while ago, when I was participating on Diana Hsieh's blog, an issue arose concerning a notorious essay by Chris Wolf entitled "My Dinner with Andy," in which the author criticized Andrew Bernstein's conduct as rude and boorish during a dinner party to which Wolf had invited him. Wolf's comments were dismissed out of hand by the other participants on the blog as unworthy of serious consideration, because they did not fit the positive impression that the posters there had of Mr. Bernstein. I said that I saw no reason to doubt Wolf's comments, since it is extremely unlikely that he would publicize them on his blog, if they were an obvious fabrication. After all, I said, there were many other people at the dinner who could easily have exposed his remarks as false and malicious. And since none had done so, I argued that there were no grounds on which to dismiss his story. I noted that the incident occurred many years ago, and that it was reasonable to think that Mr. Bernstein's conduct could well have improved since then. Or it may have been that he simply had a bad day and that his rude conduct was uncharacteristic. But I didn't see how we were justified in concluding that Wolf's essay was a deliberate fabrication without any evidence from the other dinner guests disputing his story.

Unfortunately, my comments were not well received and I was told by the moderator, Ms. Hsieh, that any further comments I made on this subject would be deleted from her blog. She then accused me of violating the onus of proof principle - of demanding proof of a negative - because I had said that I was willing to accept Wolf's comments at face value in the absence of contradictory statements from others who had witnessed the event. She argued that the mere fact that others had not contradicted him did not prove that what he said was true - that the absence of evidence against something is not evidence for it - because the other dinner guests could simply have had no interest in challenging his remarks (very unlikely, if the remarks were clearly false), or they may not have been aware of the essay that he posted (also very unlikely!). She then argued that based on comments Wolf had made in other contexts, he was not to be believed, because the man is, to quote her, "a raving lunatic." One wonders if she had evidence sufficient to support that allegation.

Of course, the important point here, and the one that I was defending, is not that the absence of evidence against something is evidence for it, but that the absence of evidence against something could very well mean that the evidence for it is sufficient to conclude that it's true.

- Bill


Post 6

Sunday, November 6, 2005 - 6:40amSanction this postReply
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Thank you, William Dwyer.  That story was a perfect vignette to explain the problem. 

When the sheriff hauls you before the assizes and says you did this and that, he is presenting evidence.  His word is accepted as good and he may have physical evidence and other witnesses.  The assumption is that you would not be here if you had not been caught red-handed.  Therefore, the burden of proof is on the accused.

America has a different history.  We distrust the king's men.  So, we make them prove their case to a series of juries and courts.  The sheriff has to go to a prosecutor first.  The prosecutor then calls a grand jury.  The finding of the grand jury goes to a judge.  A trial is held before a petite jury.  The jury finds facts.  The judge rules on the law. 

Continuing, in ancient Athens, voting was public at first and then became secret.  In America, the colonist voted in public at first -- stand up and be counted; stand up for what you believe in.  Then, like our criminal cousins in Australia, we adopted the secret ballot.

Innocent until proved guilty is a check on the power of the government to prosecute the innocent or guilty alike.  We prefer the margin of safety, but there is no metaphysical reason for it.


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Post 7

Sunday, November 6, 2005 - 9:11amSanction this postReply
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Michael Marotta wrote, "When the sheriff hauls you before the assizes and says you did this and that, he is presenting evidence. His word is accepted as good and he may have physical evidence and other witnesses. The assumption is that you would not be here if you had not been caught red-handed. Therefore, the burden of proof is on the accused."

No. The assumption is not that you would not be there unless you had been caught red-handed. You may not have been caught red-handed. You may be there, simply because you are a likely suspect. And even if you were caught red-handed, the veracity of those who claim to have witnessed your crime must be established by an independent tribunal. Granted, the police must have some evidence in order to arrest you, but it does not follow that if you are arrested, they must already have enough evidence to convict you of the crime, such that the burden of proof then shifts to you. If your case goes to trial, it is presumed that your guilt still needs to be established beyond a reasonable doubt. If enough evidence is presented by the prosecution to warrant a conviction, then and only then does the burden of proof shift to the defense to impugn the reliability of that evidence. If not enough evidence is presented by the prosecution to warrant a conviction, then the defendant is free to walk; he need say nothing, for the prosecution's burden of proof has not been met.

- Bill

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Post 8

Sunday, November 6, 2005 - 10:55amSanction this postReply
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William,

That is the theory. In practice, the suspect is detained under conditions designed to extort a plea-bargain, whether he is guilty or not. His reputation is systematically destroyed by police and prosecutors, who are exempt from criminal sanctions on falsehood - it is a crime for an otherwise innocent person to lie to a government employee, but it is not a crime for police and prosecutors to lie about a subject, sorry, citizen of the State, to the courts and the public and the press. The "public familiarity" that the suspect acquires from official defamation makes him a "public figure," which in practice raises the threshold of evidence, for actionable libel and slander, to a level that no private "public figure" is ever able to meet. The suspect's assets can be seized, so that he can neither afford to hire a private attorney nor be represented by the (usually inexperienced and underfunded) "public defenders." There is no actual commitment to objectivity on the part of public investigators, who are openly advanced and rewarded for contributing evidence favorable to the prosecution. The judge presiding over the trial is nearly always a former prosecutor who still regards himself as a member of the team. If you are innocent and caught in that machine, you had better have solid, objective evidence of your innocence, or else more money to hire more lawyers than the prosecution, before you have the least glimmer of beating the charge. The famed "presumption of innocence" has sunk to being a fiction taught to children in the first grade of school, but hardly ever taken seriously by American adults.

But then, no society has ever allowed reality to stand in the way of its proclamations of utopia.


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Post 9

Sunday, November 6, 2005 - 11:22amSanction this postReply
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Adam,

Yes, yes. I am familiar with the corruption that currently exists. I was simply presenting the theory of "presumed innocent until proved guilty." I was in no way suggesting that it is always adhered to in practice. Nor does it follow that justice is always served, if a defendant is demonstrably guilty. Witness the O.J. Simpson debacle.

- Bill

Post 10

Sunday, November 6, 2005 - 1:31pmSanction this postReply
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I think the presumption of innocence is in the first case a legal principle.  A defendant is presumed innocent to protect his rights.  The state must show beyond a reasonable doubt that he is guilty.

In other contexts one need not have such a strict approach.  It was reasonable to conclude based only on news stories that O.J. Simpson was guilty. 


Post 11

Sunday, November 6, 2005 - 2:22pmSanction this postReply
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The O. J. Simpson case has replaced "man bites dog" as the paradigm of improbables. Proven errors in the other direction, people freed after a large fraction of their lives is lost to them, when new technology, or a discovery of evidence previously concealed by police or prosecutors proves their innocence, number in the thousands, maybe tens of thousands.

Systems where there is a structural barrier between evidence gathering and prosecution - for example, where investigations are supervised by a scientifically trained magistrate of the Judicial branch, sworn to carry out an objective and impartial investigation of the facts, as in Switzerland - have a much lower rate of error either way. But that's a foreign country, and much too secular and scientific for the primacy-of-consciousness crowd here on the religious side of the Ocean.

The root of the problem is that even the demonstrably innocent in America are forever tainted, by popular belief that if they had not deserved their ordeal, God would not have permitted it to happen to them. Auto-da-fe, anyone?


Post 12

Monday, November 7, 2005 - 9:12amSanction this postReply
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I am convinved OJ Simpson murdered Nicole and Ron.

Post 13

Monday, November 7, 2005 - 1:42pmSanction this postReply
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Ethan Dawe wrote: "I am convinved OJ Simpson murdered Nicole and Ron."
My hat is off to you, Ethan!  Sitting on that jury day after day was hard enough.  Then, you had to weigh all of that evidence.  I am sure that now matter how much you were paid, it was not enough.


Post 14

Tuesday, November 8, 2005 - 6:55amSanction this postReply
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Thanks Michael,

I always consider myself the jury. I sit in judgment of myself and all those I see everyday. Sorry that you think my mind is incapable of knowing anything. I don't wait for someone to tell me what to think about something because I can't think for myself.

Oh, and before you take a few more sarcastic whacks at me, please note my quote:

I am convinved
That's right Michael, "I" am convinced by the evidence and some research I did into the case. In the meantime, if you'd like to let your sister shack up with him, be my guest, but don't be waving your finger under my nose or I'm likely to bite it.

Ethan

EDITED for clarity

(Edited by Ethan Dawe on 11/08, 9:47am)


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