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Post 20

Sunday, August 21, 2005 - 8:44pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

Many of Sherri Tracinski's examples come from photography, and also from painting and sculpture by artists deprecated by K&T. It is clear to me that she read K&T, and often chooses examples that contradict specific claims made in their book. I also think that if anything in ST's column contradicted Rand's actual aesthetics, as opposed to K&T's misconstructions, she would be very quickly called to account.

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Post 21

Sunday, August 21, 2005 - 8:44pmSanction this postReply
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Jason,
 
I hope I won't be pronounced a troll, for including long quotes :-)
 
But these passages from my article on "Goals, values, and the implicit" (Journal of Ayn Rand Studies, 2002, Volume 3, number 2) should give you a better idea of what I have in mind. The embedded quotations are from Rand's (edited) lectures on fiction and non-fiction writing.
 
The first passage is from pp. 314-316:
 
The Anomalous Status of Skill

We have seen how difficult implicit concepts were for Rand, but her struggles with the implicit are actually most evident in her treatment of skill. As Sciabarra (1995, 212) has emphasized, skill plays absolutely no role in her formal epistemology; according to Peikoff (1990–91, Lecture 12), Rand had no more use for the notion of "know-how" than she had for explanations of human behavior in terms of instincts. Yet Rand had a lot to say about the kinds of skill required in fiction and nonfiction writing. Her discussions of writing and literary style abound with sensitivity to skill, yet their epistemic vocabulary is clumsy and impoverished.
 
Rand recognized that the acquisition of skill often begins with rules learned consciously, but proceeds by making what was controlled automatic, or what was conscious subconscious:
To learn to type, more is required than merely listening to a factual lecture: you have to practice. First you learn how to move your fingers and strike the keys—slowly and by conscious effort. Learning to type then consists of automatizing this skill.
At first you have to think of how to crook your fingers, how far to reach each letter, how to keep in tempo. Then you practice, faster and faster, so eventually, when you look at a page of copy which you have to type, your fingers do the rest "instinctively." If an experienced typist were to ask herself, "How do I do it?" she would answer "I just do it."
The same is true of dancing, or playing tennis, or any physical skill. First it is learned consciously—and you are in command of the skill when it becomes automatic, so that conscious attention is no longer required. (Rand 2000, 51)

In other words, becoming skilled means acquiring more and more implicit knowledge. Consequently, hands-on experience is crucial, and the role of explicit instruction is limited.
You sit down to write, the sentence comes out a certain way, and with editing you can improve it—but you cannot compose the sentence consciously in the way that you can pass an examination in physics by stating the facts as you have learned and understood them.
That is why the process of writing cannot be taught—not because it is a mystical talent, but because so complex an integration is involved that no teacher can supervise the process for you. You can learn all the theory, but unless you practice—unless you actually write—you will not be able to apply the theory. (52)

Rand will occasionally lay down a hard rule for novices: "No beginner should write without an outline" (2001, 41). In most areas of writing, however, she denies that there are any useful explicit rules, not even simplifications for beginners. "Judging your audience is a complicated issue. But its very complexity eliminates the need for detailed rules" (18). "If you hesitate about whether to include a particular detail, the ultimate judge should be you as a reader, because there are no absolute rules in such a case applicable to every article" (23). "There are no rules about how long or detailed an outline should be" (44). "There can be no rules about this [mulling-over] process" (79). "There is no rule about how often you need to read your article [while editing]" (91). "There is no rule about when or how often to concretize" (117). "There cannot be a rule that only one choice of words will communicate a given thought" (118). "Every rule of this kind has exceptions. In fact, stylistic rules are made to be broken" (123). "There are no rules about a book’s length . . . Nor are there rules about how to divide a book into various parts, chapters, or sequences" (158). "Short of avoiding deliberate obscurity, there really are no rules for selecting a title" (173). "There are principles that will help you with style, but this long preface was necessary, because I want to stress that you must not memorize everything I am going to say, nor think about it while you are writing" (109).
 
In her lectures on writing, Rand continually emphasizes the importance of hands-on practice, the gradual development from conscious application of rules to "automatic" exercise of skill, and the constant need for skilled judgments made by an individual in a context. Precisely the same themes are stressed in many contemporary studies of expertise and how it develops (Benner 1984; Dreyfus and Dreyfus 1986; Campbell, Brown, and Di Bello 1992; Bereiter and Scardamalia 1993; Feldman 1993; Campbell and Di Bello 1996; Di Bello 1996).
 
Rand was well aware, in fact, that much in the realm of writing cannot be achieved via conscious intention:
No matter what the number of people who share the same philosophy, no one ever need be imitative of another’s style. In the selection and order of words, so many possibilities exist that you never have to worry about whether you will achieve an individual style. You will achieve it; but only if you do not aim at it consciously.
Style is the most complex of the elements of writing, and must be left to "instinct." I have explained why even plot and characterization cannot be created fully by conscious calculation, but depend on subconscious, automatized premises. This is even more true of style.
. . . what determines your style is your purpose—both in the book as a whole and in each paragraph or sentence. But given the number of issues involved in even the simplest story, there is no way to calculate the function and form consciously. Therefore, you have to set your literary premises and then write without self-consciousness. Write as it comes to you, on such premises as you have. (2000, 91–92)

The prospects for conscious error correction in the stylistic realm are limited, from Rand’s point of view. Any intervention will have to take place after the writer has established a style:
If, after some years of work, you feel that your way of expression is not right, you have to do more thinking about what you do and do not like in literature. Identify what your style is missing, what category the error belongs to; then identify the right premise, which will enable you to express things more exactly or colorfully. (92)

Rand condenses her recommendations about style into an epigram worthy of Yogi Berra:
The first thing to remember about style is to forget it. Let it come naturally. You acquire style by practicing. First learn to express your ideas clearly on paper; only then will you notice one day that you are writing in your own style. But do not look at the calendar waiting for that day. (Rand 2001, 109)

 

And the continuation is from pp. 318-319:
...
Despite all of the insight they contain, Rand’s discussions of writing and style bear witness to pronounced discomfort. Rand is short of vocabulary for describing skill. And much of the terminology that she does employ she feels obliged to put in scare-quotes. Rand never liked saying that anyone "just knows" something. She rejected instinct as an explanation for human behavior. She even resisted notions of innate aptitude or talent. Yet in her account of skill she keeps falling into modes of speaking that she found philosophically objectionable. "Instinct" and "instinctive" recur and recur in The Art of Fiction and The Art of Nonfiction, nearly always with quotation marks around them. For Rand, the specter of mysticism—of knowledge acquired "nohow"—was always looming. She feared that adopting articulated moral principles at odds with an unarticulated sense of life would harm the lives of individuals and degrade entire cultures. For her, "the only alternative is to act on the basis of rational conviction and articulated understanding or on the basis of raw emotion and tacit sense of life" (Sciabarra 1995, 214). Wherever Rand encountered unexplicated knowledge, she sensed the danger of inexplicable knowledge.
 
So every time a passage in The Art of Fiction or The Art of Nonfiction begins to look as though it might elicit nods from a hermeneuticist, or a believer in "situated cognition," or an adherent of Hayek’s (1973) conception of unarticulated rules, Rand snaps the reader sharply back to conscious explication, even to formal logic. Many of Rand’s efforts at explanation in psycho-epistemology relied on the notion of a premise. But premises are part of an analysis of argument forms in formal logic; there is no assurance that human reasoning, even when it produces results that conform to the rules of logic, has actually been following those same rules to get to that destination. Populating the subconscious with premises impedes our recognition of grades of implicitness, and makes implicit knowledge too much like explicit knowledge. For Rand, however, a subconscious mind populated with premises has the distinct virtue of leaving no room for the inexplicable and offering no comfort to the mystics.

 
Earlier in the article, I explore various conceptions of implicit knowledge, but the differences among them aren't crucial here.
 
Robert Campbell
 
 
 

(Edited by Robert Campbell on 8/21, 8:52pm)


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Post 22

Sunday, August 21, 2005 - 8:51pmSanction this postReply
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Adam,

The information about Sherri Tracinski's examples is helpful.

Her apparent policy of responding to Kamhi and Torres without citing them is, of course, all too typical.

But I actually question how readily she would be "called to account" for deviating from Rand's views on esthetics.

There are two areas where Leonard Peikoff has specifically rejected claims made by Ayn Rand.  Most often, we hear about his decision to put aside Rand's sexual psychology (including her condemnation of homosexuality and her insistence that no woman should want to be President of the United States).

But Peikoff also rejected her esthetic policing--her claim to be able to discern a person's "premises" from his or her likes and dislikes in art.  Apparently, he was on the receiving end of it too often.

Robert Campbell


Post 23

Sunday, August 21, 2005 - 8:55pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

I'm having difficulty assessing your post #16 because I would need definitions and examples of the following key terms you use:

"skill" & "implicit knowledge", which you equate. And " prudence or practical wisdom", which again you equate. In ordinary English language usage, one would not say the first and second (and the third and fourth) have the same meaning.

Simple, brief or everyday examples would be very helpful here.

Phil

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Post 24

Sunday, August 21, 2005 - 9:16pmSanction this postReply
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Phil,

As far as skill and implicit knowledge are concerned, I hope the examples from Rand's lectures on writing will help.

A definition of implicit knowledge, however, requires a theory of implicit knowledge (something that Rand never developed).   Much of the remainder of my 2002 article tries to lay out such a theory (and, even then, the exposition is far from complete).

"Prudence," "practical wisdom," and "practical intelligence" are all attempts to translate one Greek word: phronesis.  For Aristotle, phronesis was an intellectual virtue.  For the Stoics it was a component of moral virtue.

I'll borrow an example from a recent talk by Barry Schwartz. (Yes, this is the same guy who hates corporations and thinks American consumers are overwhelmed with too many choices--he didn't get into any of that stuff in this particular talk, which was quite good.) 

A medical doctor, after running the appropriate tests, has concluded that one of his patients has terminal cancer.  What does the doctor say to the patient?  And doesn't knowing what to say call on the doctor's knowledge of that particular person and his or her situation?

To develop this a little further in a Randian context: Would the doctor be able to figure out what to say on the basis of a quick reminder about the Objectivist virtues?  Since honesty is a virtue, that would rule out not telling the patient about the illness at all, or pretending that there is a high probability of recovery.  But there are still many choices about just how much to tell the patient, and in what way.  And what would work well with one patient could be a complete disaster with another.

Robert Campbell


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Post 25

Monday, August 22, 2005 - 12:25pmSanction this postReply
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Robert, here is a list of activities from the first three letters of the alphabet which fall more into the category of hobbies or vocational work or skill-intensive activities than they do into the more intellectual traditional subjects of knowing and practicing. I think an Aristotelian approach to questions such as what constitutes implicit learning, skills, etc. is best addressed by starting with concretes which may mix different kinds of thinking, acting, knowing, and learning such as these do.

At the very least these "ABCs" clipped from a website should form a checklist against which any defintions or theories should be validated early on:

3D Modeling
Acoustic Guitar
Airplane Flying
any martial arts
badminton
baking
Ballet
Ballroom
barbeque
barista
bartending
Basketball
beginning piano
Bookbinding
Bulb Planting
calligraphy
ceramics
computer repair
crochet

And then there are the skills infants learn: grasping, walking, etc.

I am always suspicious of any academic approach or style which is not as concretely grounded as would be an Aristotle-like methodical chewing and microscopic perusal of the concretes. The first thing one notices once one has looked at this list is that a 'skill' can involve kinesthetic learning, muscular learning, and conceptual activity integrated in different forms and in different proportions, and that there is no bright line between a 'skill' and conscious, conceptual learning of, say, an academic topic. Nor are skills always 'implicit' in how they are acquired or practiced. Often there is a conscious learning process followed by automatization, which Rand quite accurately describes in both her fiction and her non-fiction writing classes. Not that she was the first to notice this.

Phil

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Post 26

Monday, August 22, 2005 - 3:24pmSanction this postReply
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Jason, you've asked a very interesting question. Thanks for starting this thread.

I think there's a number of places that need clarification and expansion. Here's a small list.

1.) Objectivist epistemology understand the need for unit economy. We avoid being swamped with concretes by forming concepts. The key there is that the concepts need to retain objectivity and at the same time greatly reduce our mental workload. How do these same needs play out in the area of ethics? It's easy to say that we pick our actions by comparing possible values on a scale with life as the standard, but if taken literally (i.e., we compare every possible action against this scale and pick the highest), we'd once again be swamped by concretes, unable to make any decisions. What is the epistemological methods by which we reduce that workload while retaining objectivity and rationality in our choices?

2.) The nature of government. There's lots of stuff here that can be worked on, which partially explains why there are so many anarchists. For instance, Rand did a kind of top-down explanation/justification for government, whereas one could do a bottom-up. It's also possible that the concept of government unites too many distinct functions, making it difficult to analyze. Breaking it up would help.

3.) Saying that life is the standard of morality is a great starting point, but there are places where that can be difficult to put into practice. Choosing values at different points in time. Some people suggest Objectivism promotes "long-term self-interest", as opposed to short-term (typically viewed as hedonism). That's not quite right, but it shows how "life as the standard of morality" can be viewed in multiple ways. I've done some work on this in two of my SOLOC speeches ("Time and Value", and "The Story of Your Life"). But the wider issue is that if life is to serve as your standard, it needs to be a very fleshed out view of life. My "Meaning of Life" speech discusses some of the issues related to having a vague understanding of what life as the standard is.

4.) Integration. This is a really powerful tool of ours, and yet not that much is said on exactly how it's done, what methods are appropriate, etc. I think there's a gold mine of ideas for anyone willing to do the work here.

5.) A theory of justice. This needs a lot of work. Some Objectivists discuss it as if it were only a method of judgment, and not of action. Some talk about it as what I call "disembodied justice", meaning divorced from our methods of knowing. There's justice the virtue, and justice the value. There's judging and acting.

6.) A discussion of loyalty from an Objectivist perspective. Some Objectivists dismiss it entirely as a kind of blind following of a friend or loved-one. It could be seen in a more rational light, such as a well-deserved benefit of the doubt.

I agree with some of the previous posts as well. The relationship between Science and Philosophy is an interesting one, which I have my own thoughts on. Intellectual property is good. Definitely could use a better discussion of Free Will and Determinism.

Offhand, I remember other people mentioning areas that need work. There's a theory of concepts in Objectivism, but not one on propositions. Contextual knowledge and hierarchical knowledge theories were mentioned as likely areas of elaboration.

There's plenty more than these, but these are the ones that I've put some thought into. And I didn't even try to delve into the areas I think Objectivism has good answers for, but that many Objectivists just don't get. For those, it's a matter of integrating what's available. I think there's lots of room for just integrating and applying Objectivist ideas. But that wasn't your question.

--Joe

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Post 27

Monday, August 22, 2005 - 4:23pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Rowlands -- Another great response.    I'm very happy with the type of participants this thread has drawn.  Every issue you brought up is highly important and needs a great deal of elaboration.  This thread has shown me how many issues remain open in areas that I regarded as fairly strong like Objectivist ethics and politics.  Several weeks ago I got involved in a debate on this website with a bunch of anarchists and while I thought my arguments were much stronger I failed to find THE decisive fundamental argument(s) that would pin them into a corner without a viable counter argument.  Looking at it now, it is because my positions with regard to ethics and government while still likely the correct positions are not as strong as I thought they were. 

Here is one of your points that I find particularly interesting and which ties into the discussion about skill that Robert Campbell brought up earlier. 

"4.) Integration. This is a really powerful tool of ours, and yet not that much is said on exactly how it's done, what methods are appropriate, etc. I think there's a gold mine of ideas for anyone willing to do the work here."
 
I suspect that any real advances here would have to be attained by integrating Rand's basic theory of concepts with formal logic/critical thinking and advances in psychology.   I would be greatly interested in seeing  "A Guide to Proper Thinking and Integration" book which attempts to accomplish this type of project.

 - Jason

(Edited by Jason Quintana on 8/22, 4:48pm)


Post 28

Monday, August 22, 2005 - 5:27pmSanction this postReply
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As far as "Justice" is concerned, you might find Otto Bird's The Idea of Justice to be of use.  It was recommended by Rand.

Post 29

Monday, August 22, 2005 - 5:53pmSanction this postReply
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I think this has the potential to be one of SOLO's most important threads.  The question I have is how can we zoom in on these issues and keep a singular focus for each one, rather than just naming them.  Naming them is an important thing, and Joe just did that lucidly.  My hope is that this thread does not fade into oblivion or disintegrate into a heap of irrelevancies and hysteria, but instead leads to something fruitful.  Kudos again to Jason for getting this started.
(Edited by Jody Allen Gomez on 8/22, 5:54pm)


Post 30

Monday, August 22, 2005 - 6:13pmSanction this postReply
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As for the issue of further thoughts on the aesthetics of Objectivism, there is a manuscript written by me, yet to be published, which is my own answering to the issue, covering my own understanding of the biological foundations for the initiation of the Arts, the problem confronting Art with the two worldviews of ethics [and including where these came from], the consequences of these two worldviews on Art throughout history, and what I consider as proper resolutions to what Art is, and what to do about it - and why, for instance, subjects as photography and architecture are not Art.  But, as said, it is not yet published, tho would like to see it so. If any be interested, send me email address, and can send part one, which are the first five chapters [there are three parts to the work].  Susanna Thomlinson gave me a critique on the first draft a few years ago, so that has helped. It was not something I particularly wanted to do, but was tired of waiting for another to do it - and the only other turned out to be Torres and Kamhi. Would welcome critique to the work in total - tho I warn that many notions given go against the grain of conventional wisdom.


Post 31

Monday, August 22, 2005 - 6:32pmSanction this postReply
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I'm really wishing I'd been able to chime in earlier but I'll add my two cents.  Integration is probably the most important element because at it's best Objectivism is supposed to be a fully functioning fully workable philosophy and without integration this is impossible. 

Another element is aesthetics, more specifically certain sub-branches of it.  Music has next to nothing effectively so it needs the most work. Literary and preformance(stage acting/dance) are sound so they can probably stand as is.   The visual arts (esp painting/drawing) seems somewhat sound but sort of incomplete,  the goal is total realism but after generations of development photorealism has come completely to pass so nothing "more real" is ever going to happen.  Beyond that is choice of subject matter, which lends itself toward the literary end of the spectrum, but you can't tell much of a story with a single image, it may seem this way but compare the most detailed narrative painting  you can think of to almost any novel, it will always come up short.  If the Romantic Manifesto is taken literally in this medium the future is limited.  And there have been many newer mediums that have emerged since its writing that need weighed in on... they tend to exist in the popular spectrum but there have been individuals trying to push it into the spectrum of "Fine art"... they deserve proper standards with which to do so. 

These are some of my thoughts.

---Landon


Post 32

Monday, August 22, 2005 - 7:14pmSanction this postReply
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You have to recognise the difference between means and ends - technique is for naught if no theming not consciously devised [and consciously is needed to know where one is going and/or what one is doing].

Post 33

Monday, August 22, 2005 - 7:33pmSanction this postReply
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True Robert, I think I left out the main point of my argument.  My main point was that I think it was presumptous for Rand to write of impressionism and other similar styles.

I have a fondness for impressionism but I think it's my comic background, in comics everything is uptake of information, you don't make anything more detailed than to the degree which you want someone to notice it and you need to make a psychological connection with the reader.  A number of good comic artists have taken cues from impressionists in order to create a better connection with the reader so I see value there. I see aesthetic value in anything that has a goal of communication and imparting an idea which does not seek to hide behind big talk and hype (traditional abstract work).

---Landon


Post 34

Monday, August 22, 2005 - 7:46pmSanction this postReply
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The mistake is in presuming it is imitation - it is NOT, and NEVER was to be so considered.  It is re-presentating, according to the artist's fundamental sense of importance.
(Edited by robert malcom on 8/22, 7:48pm)


Post 35

Monday, August 22, 2005 - 8:02pmSanction this postReply
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Ok, good point.  I'll stand behind the rest of what I said though.

---Landon


Post 36

Monday, August 22, 2005 - 8:21pmSanction this postReply
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Lot's of good points here.  I'd like to add an additional thought:

I believe there are people out there who may think of themselves as 'moral relativists' - either explicitly or implicitly - that may be won over to a 'contextual absolutist' approach to morality.  Many people are skeptical of moral absolutism because of its strong association with the whole "Thou shalt not" flavor of religious (and therefore arbitrary) guidelines directing voluntary and consensual activities.  The challenge here is that contexts can be extremely unique and varied that universal moral standards (beyond the highly interpretive "life as the standard of value") might be hard to establish.  Any thoughts? 


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Post 37

Monday, August 22, 2005 - 9:34pmSanction this postReply
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Phil,

In response to your #25:

Of course, it would be valuable to explore the development of many different skills from your partial list.

In fact, psychologists (and others) started doing work on skill and skill development a while back.  Just to take two examples that I cited in my 2002 article: Benner (1984) studied levels of expertise in Intensive Care Unit nursing; Feldman (1993) reports studies of how people learn to juggle, among other things.  Other work not cited in my 2002 article includes Spelke, Hirst and Neisser's (1976) study of learning to read stories for comprehension while taking (unrelated) dictation--a skill that many adults would assume is impossible to learn.  Lots more is needed, but it's not as though a bunch of academics have been running around generalizing about skill without investigating any particular instances of it.

The first thing one notices once one has looked at this list is that a 'skill' can involve kinesthetic learning, muscular learning, and conceptual activity integrated in different forms and in different proportions, and that there is no bright line between a 'skill' and conscious, conceptual learning of, say, an academic topic.

If you want to know whether anything that a human being can do has a skill component--ask whether there is some element of "knowing how" involved.  Ask, in particular, whether the person can (accurately!) tell you how she does everything she knows how to do.  Even when the skilled individual is able to reflect on her skill, coming to consciously understand how she does some of what he does, other aspects of the skilled performance will keep on strictly as "knowing how."
Nor are skills always 'implicit' in how they are acquired or practiced. Often there is a conscious learning process followed by automatization, which Rand quite accurately describes in both her fiction and her non-fiction writing classes. Not that she was the first to notice this.

Sure, if you study skill acquisition at more advanced levels of development, you will often find a progression from "going by the cookbook" (consciously following rules that you have been taught) to performance that is smoother and more automatic.  A book by Hubert and Stuart Dreyfus (using such examples as driving a car, flying a fighter plane, and playing chess) claims that skill acquisition always starts with "going by the cookbook."

Except...

(1) Development in infancy and early childhood (as in your examples of reaching and grabbing, or walking) can't begin with a "cookbook" stage.  Lesson: In any inquiry into knowledge, a developmental perspective is crucial; if you assume adult cognitive functioning as your baseline, much will escape you.

(2)  Something that Dreyfus and Dreyfus did understand and document: "Automatization" is not simply a matter of getting faster and less conscious of doing the exact same things that you were doing when you started.  What you know how to do, when you have "automatized" a skill, is qualitatively different from what you started with.  An expert typist is not repeating the exact same motions that the beginning typist used--all the same except he's doing them a lot faster without having to think consciously about them any more.  The motions themselves have changed, as has the organization of processes that controls those motions.


I am always suspicious of any academic approach or style which is not as concretely grounded as would be an Aristotle-like methodical chewing and microscopic perusal of the concretes.

But you have to have some idea of what to look for.  If you practice what psychologists used to call "Dust Bowl empiricism," you will generally end up with a mess of little bitty data sets that resist integration.  Even today, in some areas of psychology, that's all that anyone has.  (Aristotle supposed that the fundamental properties of different kinds of things wouldn't be too hard to find.  The subsequent history of science has shown that he significantly underestimated the difficulty of the task.)

Making progress in psychology requires moving back and forth from data to theory and from theory to data.  There's a bunch of theory in my 2002 article, about what implicit and explicit knowledge might be.  A few illustrative examples are given there.  But there's more to the theory, which is laid out in greater detail elsewhere, and there are more examples of the phenomena that this kind of theory integrates and makes sense of--also presented in other publications.  Not to mention the fact that a fellow named Jean Piaget put in nearly 60 years of work on some of the issues that we have been discussing here.  Or that some other folks have put forward rival theories that need to be carefuly contrasted with his.

So it's not as the study of knowledge and skill has nothing but Objectivist theory on the one side, and a mass of unexplicated phenomena on the other.

Rather, there have been a number of different "academic" attempts to integrate and explain the phenomena, and some of these "academic" theories have been partially successful.

Consequently, the theorist who is trying to move beyond Rand's formulations will need to learn about these "academic" formulations and respond to them in some way.  Unless, perhaps, he or she is so brilliant and creative as to be able to construct an entirely new theory that rejects (indeed, wholly ignores) the existing theories' ways of accounting for the phenomena, yet explains everything they did and much more.

Robert Campbell


Post 38

Monday, August 22, 2005 - 11:37pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Robert,

It's good to hear your estimate that good work has been done in this field by academics. And I hope to read your article when time permits (and when I can get my hands on JARS).

Phil

Post 39

Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 12:36amSanction this postReply
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*Tony Montana ignored as well*

At any rate, my point is still valid.  Francisco may have alluded to "dirty money" in his speech, but beyond that, Objectivism as a philosophy pretty much doesn't mention it. 

Objectivism as a philosophical movement pretty much has this as its Achilles' Heel, in that it is constantly being used as a validation for corporate corruption, under the guise that, because any big business makes a lot of money, that the more money it makes, the more noble and exempt from criticism it becomes.

Allowing Objectivism to become that without challenge is the quickest way for it to wind up on the scrap-heap of history.  Therefore, submit to it at your own peril.


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