About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadPage 0Page 1Page 2Forward one pageLast Page


Sanction: 2, No Sanction: 0
Post 0

Friday, December 10, 2004 - 9:33amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I would like to call into question whether O'ists should accept corporations as entities.

Rand was a huge proponent of big business. Her greatest hero was the businessperson, and I'm sure she was very much in favor of corporate development and growth.

But Rand was also very much against treating societies as entities, as so many of her opponents would. She would insist that societies were merely groups of individuals and shouldn't be reified into actual entities.

What does Rand's view of societies have to do with corporations?

Corporations are basically groups of individuals in joint pursuit of business for profit. But under the law, corporations are treated as entities. What turns on their entity status? The most important aspect is that the owners (i.e., shareholders) of the corporation won't usually be liable to third parties for the wrongdoings of corporate personnel. This is among the main reasons why corporations have grown so powerful. Partnerships -- groups of individuals in joint pursuit of business for profit who are not shielded from liability from the wrondoings of the partnership personnel -- are hardly as powerful.

If societies aren't entities, then why would corporations be? Would Rand really be willing to give up corporate success on epistemological grounds?

Jordan



Post 1

Friday, December 10, 2004 - 12:20pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jordan-

I'm almost certainly a minority here, but I think corporations should not be treated as 'persons' and should be disestablished on precisely these grounds.  I respect commerce and business highly as a life and pursuit, but I don't respect the top-heavy collectivism of corporate culture and its social preeminance (and political power) that our legal structure promotes and protects.  This is why I refer to myself as a libertarian easily, but I'm a little leery towards 'capitalism'; I think the left is not entirely wrong when it talks about an economic system dominated by business and capital.  I think the right answer is to support a true free market- without the artificial protections for legally established entities such as corporations.  I think this would do a great deal to promote a market society less dominated by 'business as usual' conventional bourgeois conformity, while calling the left's bluff and showing that free markets are not the cause of this conformism.

Jeanine


Post 2

Friday, December 10, 2004 - 1:45pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I'm really not sure what to make of corporations.

Basically, a corporation amounts to a (usually implicit) contract between a company and its customers that in the event the company goes bankrupt, then any outstanding debts owed to the customers cannot be collected from the personal finances of the company's owners, but only from the accounts of the company itself. I see that sort of legal arrangement as valuable in making it easier for new businesses to start—more people are likely to become entrepreneurs if they aren't potentially risking the confiscation of all their personal assets based on the success of their business. So I think there may be a good reason for the existence of corporations in principle.

Nevertheless, I do feel a little uncomfortable with the status of corporations as imaginary persons. But that is pretty much a consequence of the idea of a separation between the owners' accounts and the company's accounts, and it may be impossible to give a company's owners that protection from legal liability without implicitly giving the company legal status as a distinct entity.

What I really don't like about corporations, though, is the idea of publicly held shares granting controlling votes on the company's policy. It is that, as I see it, which makes possible the hostile takeovers and such that capitalism is so often damned for. Also democratic control of a company often seems to lead to the creative vision of an entrepreneur being restrained by arguments with boards of directors and such. (It's interesting to note that Atlas Shrugged is rather unflattering in its portrayal of the Taggart Transcontinental board of directors, and also of the mentality of the shareholders in D'Anconia Copper. It's also interesting to note the outcry in the media when Google took steps in the terms of its IPO to keep the controlling votes in the hands of the company's founders.)

Also, I see corporate status as being far too entrenched in our legal and political system. As I said, I think the idea of incorporation in the form of a legal contract between a company and its customers is a potentially valuable one, but that agreement should keep the form of a private contract and not an entire branch of our legal code.

(Yeah, the tone of this post is deliberately heavy in “I feel” and “as I see it” and “it seems to me.” It's probably all too obvious that I know next to nothing concrete about business law or the internal workings of corporations, so this should be taken as nothing more than the impressions of an outsider to the business world.)

Post 3

Friday, December 10, 2004 - 8:29pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I'm a bit disturbed by what I'm reading here.  One of the underlying implications seems to be that corporate owners are shysters who are looking to get away with not paying their debts, and therefore corporate status is unfair to the shareholder/rest of the world. 

There are several reasons for a corporation to exist as a separate entity, apart from offering its owners protection from debtors.  The most important is that it enables a business to continue on indefinitely, rather than dying with its founder(s).  Without such structure we would not have Johnson & Johnson, Hewlett-Packard, Proctor & Gamble, or PepsiCo.  In addition, it enables the acquisition of capital from hundreds or thousands of individual owners, without which the founder might not be able to fund multimillion dollar projects.  These additional owners then do have a say in what happens in the company should they exercise that right, but it is limited unless they band together (i.e. in the case of Disney, where stockholders banded together to demand the removal of Michael Eisner because they were unhappy with his performance).   

It is also important to note that a corporation is subject to double taxation.  The income of the corporation is taxed, and so is the income of its stockholders.  There is also a mountain of paperwork required by the government, including charters, articles of incorporation, quarterly financial reports, etc.  There is accountability, particularly given the current state of corporate business in America.

The personal liability issue is an important one, and it is certainly abused, but the benefits of having corporate status far outweigh the risks.  For example, what if you had a very successful unincorporated business, and the government suddenly decided that the business owed hundreds of thousands of dollars in back taxes because they didn't like the way you presented your tax return?  Perhaps you no longer have the receipts you need to provide proof.  If you are not protected by a corporate veil, they will take your  house, your car, and the shirt off your back.

However, in cases where there has been corporate fraud, such as in the case of Enron, et. al., all is not as simple as it seems.  The court does have the right to "pierce" the corporate veil when it has clearly been abused in order to commit fraud.  Corporate status does not offer full protection, at all times, no matter what.

You have now motivated me to go back through my business law texts to give more concrete answers about the separate entity issue.  More to come.  :)

(Edited by Jennifer Iannolo on 12/10, 8:38pm)


Post 4

Friday, December 10, 2004 - 11:45pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

The most important is that it enables a business to continue on indefinitely, rather than dying with its founder(s). Without such structure we would not have Johnson & Johnson, Hewlett-Packard, Proctor & Gamble, or PepsiCo.


I'll grant that as another potentially valuable benefit of incorporation, certainly. What I'm not sure on—and what I'm sure you probably know better than I—is what makes the continuance of a corporate entity in this manner superior to the inheritance used for other forms of property. In our modern legal landscape, I can certainly see a continuance of a company through inheritance as being bogged down by inheritance taxes and other bureaucratic amusements, and if the company simply continues existing independently of its founder it does avoid those troubles. But if we had a more rational system without inheritance taxes or anything, would this benefit still apply?


In addition, it enables the acquisition of capital from hundreds or thousands of individual owners, without which the founder might not be able to fund multimillion dollar projects. These additional owners then do have a say in what happens in the company should they exercise that right, but it is limited unless they band together [...].


Much as I like the idea of a company being able to offer stock to the public in order to raise money, I do think that the present status of stock owner conflates two not necessarily connected functions: that of investment, and that of actual ownership.

When I think of buying stock, it makes the most sense to me to view it as an investment in the company—meaning that I choose to give the company some amount of my money on the assumption that it will use that money to produce more money, and that sometime in the future I will be entitled to a proportionately greater return on my initial investment. I find the idea of giving a company some of my money to improve its ability to create value very, um, valuable. But I'm really not as interested in the aspect of stock ownership as literal ownership of part of the company. I think that the ownership of a company should remain in the hands of the individual who created it (or his designated heirs), and I don't think giving money to the company should entitle me to ownership of a fraction of the company's actual assets. And I don't see any benefit in my having a vote on the company's policies; the company's management undoubtedly know how to run things better than I do—that's why I invested money in the company in the first place, because I trust the company's current management to have a pretty good idea of how to run the company properly and make money.

And regarding the voting, it's not really small shareholders banding together to vote that worries me; it's when another company or a wealthy individual makes a concerted effort to acquire enough of the company's outstanding stock to become its effective owner. My simplified understanding of how a hostile takeover happens—and I hope you'll correct me if this isn't how such things can or do happen—is something like this: Company B spends a number of years buying stock in Company A as it becomes available, and holding it until its percentage of the total reaches the point that Company B has the deciding voice in any vote taken by Company A's shareholders. Company B then introduces a proposal to be voted on by Company A's shareholders: to sell Company A to Company B. Since Company B has the controlling vote, the sale goes through more or less automatically, without the necessity of any sanction from Company A's existing leadership.

And thank you for commenting here—you obviously have good knowledge of both entrepreneurship and business law, and I do want to form both a good principled defense of incorporation and an understanding of where reforms in that institution as it stands today might be desirable.

Post 5

Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 2:30amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
>>  There are several reasons for a corporation to exist as a separate entity, apart from offering its owners protection from debtors.

You mean creditors of course. :)


Post 6

Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 7:56amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

 Jennifer,

I agree that there're good reasons to incorporate beside the limited liability of shareholders. This just thickens the problem. I contend that the benefit to incorporating largely stems from a corporation's entity status, a status based on an epistemic fallacy - the fallacy of reification. I'm wondering whether O'ists would accept for its advantages the legal fiction of 'corporation as entity', or would they kick that fiction aside and instead accept the less advantageous alternative (non)status.

 Leseul:
And I don't see any benefit in my having a vote on the company's policies

This is sort of a side issue, but people like to control what their money does and where it goes. If X lends Y some money, the loan can be limited to Y using it only to buy a house. It's similar where Y is a corporation and X is a shareholder. But in this relationship, it's understood that Y may spend the money as it pleases (within the bounds of the Certification of Incorporation and the Bylaws), unless X steps in and says otherwise. And it's hard for X to say otherwise because he must get a bunch of other shareholders to agree with him. So it's not so bad.

As for your understanding of hostile takeovers, you're pretty close but not quite right, and you've neglected all the defensive maneuvers that directors can use to protect the corporation. I don't have time to get into the intricacies of takeovers, but maybe I will in a week or so.

Jordan

(Edited by Jordan on 12/11, 7:57am)


Post 7

Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 9:56amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jonathan, thanks for the correction.  I didn't even realize I wrote that backwards.  :)

Nature, you raise some very good questions.  I was thinking about the inheritance issue as I was posting last night.  What if a company founder doesn't have anyone to whom to pass along the company? 

I'm sorry I have not yet had time to research the other issues.  It has been a long time since studying this subject, and I've sort of automatized the incorporation mentality.  :)  However, now that I look at it from a philosophical perspective, I do have some of the same questions that all of you do.  Every time I try to answer one of your questions, I find another one.  Thanks for the brain exercise.


Post 8

Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 10:42amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
All,

Jordan said:
Corporations are basically groups of individuals in joint pursuit of business for profit. But under the law, corporations are treated as entities.

It seems to me that the key phrase here is "under the law". Those who treat society as an entity fail to recognise the volitional nature of human individuals. Corporations consist of volitional individuals who voluntarily choose to participate in the entity. Though I recognise that some corporations have behaved despicably (bringing anti-trust suits against rival companies, taking government subsidies etc), I generally agree that the concept is good and useful precisely because it enables investment by a far wider pool of people than would be willing to risk joining a partnership, thus facilitating the kind of massive expansion that would not otherwise be possible.

MH


Post 9

Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 11:02amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Hi Matthew:
I generally agree that the concept is good and useful
So if reifying 'society' would yield such good and useful ends, then it'd be okay for us to reify 'society'? This seems to be a pragmatic approach to oncept-formation: forming concepts based on their utility moreso than their correspondence to reality. Please let me know if I've misunderstood your point.

Jordan


Post 10

Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 11:44amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jordan,

I'm sorry - I expressed that very poorly. Some of the earlier posts in the thread appear to be critical of the fact that it is possible for companies to incorporate. I was attempting to express my own view that it is actually a good thing.

The main point I was trying to get at thought is that I don't think the analogy you made between society and corporations is actually valid.

MH


Post 11

Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 12:51pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Matthew:
The main point I was trying to get at thought is that I don't think the analogy you made between society and corporations is actually valid.
Good. I was hoping someone would take this route. Where does the analogy fail? It's not clear to me from your post #8 where that is.

Jordan


Post 12

Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 1:25pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jordan,

There is a crucial difference between the two. Treating society as an entity means making out that individuals aren't volitional beings, a corporation on the other hand exists as a legal entity because - and only because - volitional individuals choose to set it up.

I'll elaborate: Society is something spontaneous, it isn't an "entity" that was deliberately declared to be in being at a specific date and won't cease to exist at a specific time due to being liquidated or being taken over by another society. In fact I would take the term society to simply mean the spontaneous interaction between the individual human beings that are said to be within it. A corporation on the other hand is legally an entity - deliberately and consciously set up by individuals for a specific purpose, with the full knowledge and consent of those individuals, who will become its initial owners (shareholders); via a specific legal process set up to allow this to take place.

MH


Post 13

Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 2:04pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Hi Matthew,

Thanks for clarifying. So whatever is deliberately and consciously set up by individuals for a specific purpose and with the full knowledge and consent of those individuals should be considered an entity? (and should be considered an entity in all contexts or just within the law?)

I'm wondering now how the concept of 'nation' or 'planned society' would measure up. I'd think that for the former, you'd say it shouldn't be granted entity status (which would greatly change the positive law); and for the first; you'd say that it should be granted entity status (and I'm not exactly sure how this would change the positive law, but I'm pretty sure it would).

Jordan


Post 14

Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 3:55pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jordan,

Thanks for clarifying. So whatever is deliberately and consciously set up by individuals for a specific purpose and with the full knowledge and consent of those individuals should be considered an entity?

Not necessarily everything "deliberately and consciously set up by individuals for a specific purpose and with the full knowledge and consent of those individuals", but many things, including corporations, should.

(and should be considered an entity in all contexts or just within the law?)
What other contexts do you have in mind? I emphasised that a corporation is a legal entity partly because corporations are set up via a legal mechanism, i.e. there is a specific process by which the entity is created. Also as far as a corporation goes it seems to me that all the situations where its status as an entity matters are actually legal in nature.

I'm wondering now how the concept of 'nation' or 'planned society' would measure up. I'd think that for the former, you'd say it shouldn't be granted entity status (which would greatly change the positive law); and for the first; you'd say that it should be granted entity status (and I'm not exactly sure how this would change the positive law, but I'm pretty sure it would).
I'm afraid I don't understand this last paragraph. Could you please clarify?

MH


Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 3, No Sanction: 0
Post 15

Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 10:58pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Good thread going here.

Is a corporation an "entity" in the strictest sense of the term? I suppose not: it's an organization composed of employees who carry out business operations. I would support a change in the law to reflect that. Why call a corporation a person when you can call it a "Section 6-43(a) Business" (or whatever bureaucratese term was ultimately adopted) , and still give it limited liability and all the other bells and whistles of corporations?

However, the limited liability status of corporations is critical both to the businesses themselves and to our capital markets, which function much more efficiently when investors are not paralyzed with fear that their investment in HeartyFoods, Inc. may cost them their houses and life savings when some customer who slipped on a grape sues the company and all its shareholders for all they're worth.

Incorporation is used not just by industrial behemoths, but also small businesses who would otherwise be exposed to potentially catastophic liability. For instance, my parents own and manage a small, 60-room motel, and formed a corporation (Bissell, Inc.) for the purpose. Without that limited liability, a guest who was injured on the property could sue for the full value of the motel (about $1 million), plus our house, cars, and all other assets and property. This isn't just some "artificial protection" or a "perversion" of the free market. Also, note that almost all corporations still purchase liability insurance and obsess over safety (who wants to lose half the equity in their business because they exposed their customers to needless risks?).

Jeanine wrote: 
quote  I'm almost certainly a minority here, but I think corporations should not be treated as 'persons' and should be disestablished on precisely these grounds.  I respect commerce and business highly as a life and pursuit, but I don't respect the top-heavy collectivism of corporate culture and its social preeminance (and political power) that our legal structure promotes and protects. 
Well I certainly hope you're in the minority, because what you're proposing is a surefire way to bring capitalism to its knees. The so-called "top heavy collectivism" you decry is nothing of the sort--no one is forced to participate in a corporation. Many corporations certainly are subject to a high degree of central organization, and it is this organization that allows them undertake herculean tasks like building a railroad or inventing, distributing, and promoting a new gadget. Wal-Mart could not achieve its amazing rate of productivity and relentless cost-control if it allowed free reign to every store manager with his own rebel notions of how to run things.

Now, with a larger, more centralized business comes some bureaucracy, with its attendant middle-men and hangers-on. Again, all the participants are there willingly, and at any rate, it's a small price to pay for the benefits large corporations can provide. Also, much of today's corporate bureaucracy is unnecessary, as it exists to ensure compliance with the thousands of pages of federal regulations on business.

As for stock, it is simply another means for businesses to raise funds. There are other options--for instance, selling bonds or acquiring earnings through operations. However, these options can be unappealing; bonds require businesses to make regular interest payments, which can be difficult for businesses with low or unpredictable cash flows. (These same businesses usually have to pay a higher rate of interest on their bonds, as well.) And it can take more time to raise the needed funds through earnings than many businesses are willing to wait. (There is also preferred stock, which has no voting rights, is senior to common stock, and may come with other benefits such as higher, more frequent, or guaranteed dividends.)

Instead, many corporations choose to sell stock: they offer some share of ownership and control of the corporation in exchange for cash. This ownership control is one benefit of stocks, but there are also some drawbacks. Stock is junior to debt (meaning if the company fails and has to be liquidated, bondholders have the first claims on the assets). The company could choose not to pay a dividend, so there is no guarantee of a cash flow from the stock. Also, the stock owner's share in the company could be diluted if the company chooses to issue more stock in the future.

Hostile takeovers, much maligned in the press and movies like Oliver Stone's "Wall Street," are actually very important, positive influences in the economy. If a raider believes he could run a company better than the current management (or use the company's assets more efficiently elsewhere), hostile takeovers provide a means for him to do that. And, as has been mentioned, there are ways for management to defend itself, including leveraged buyouts and so-called "poison-pill" defenses (where a company under threat of takeover sells large amounts of stock at half-price to current shareholders to drive up the cost of the takeover bid). For example, in 1989, Time Inc. fended off an acquisition attempt by Paramount Communications with a poison pill.


Post 16

Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 11:29pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
"Wal-Mart could not achieve its amazing rate of productivity and relentless cost-control if it allowed free reign to every store manager with his own rebel notions of how to run things."

True, Andrew... but that can also run the opposite way. Tower Records was one of the rare breed of stores that had individual buyers in the stores, until recently, when they went to a central purchasing plan. The store I worked in was new and shot up to the third ranked store in the chain, because we did rebel and did things differently. As book buyer, I tailored the selection to the community, instead of carrying the usual Tower fare(books on punk rock, drugs, Bukowski, and vampires). We actually listened to our customers, instead of forcing our tastes on them. Meanwhile, the home office did things their way, and now Tower is teetering on bankruptcy.

Not that I am Howard Roark, but I followed his model, and it did work. And he was nothing if not a rebel businessman.

But I think you are right for the most part. There is a good book on the subject, for those interested, called THE E-MYTH. It's about the failure of employees who, after complaining that they could run things better than the management, start their own business...and fail, because they ran the business like an employee, not an entrepreneur. It's a must read for any aspiring capitalist.


Post 17

Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 11:41pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Nice example Joe. You are correct of course. I had considered hedging what I wrote with something along the lines of, "of course, the best corporations also allow good, productive innovations to bubble up from the bottom," but you handled that nicely!   :-D

Post 18

Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 1:12amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Thanks, Andrew. :)

Post 19

Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 2:17amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Hi Andrew, Joe,

Is a corporation an "entity" in the strictest sense of the term? I suppose not: it's an organization composed of employees who carry out business operations.
I guess it depends how you define entity. I would say that the actual organisation you described above would be an entity to the extent that it is considered as a singe unit (which is to say, as a company). I can't speak to US law, but under the law of England & Wales, the corporation is actually considered to be the "employer" of the employees, including the directors and chairman.

I absolutely agree with both your comments about hostile takeovers and innovations. :-)

MH


Post to this threadPage 0Page 1Page 2Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.