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Post 0

Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 5:39pmSanction this postReply
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I've never heard of this game, but the point of ideally being non-idealistic is as silly as it is profoundly sad.  

The Fountainhead diss is so incredibly dinky in Dirty Dancing, I can't believe anyone even caught the title of the book being tossed aside on first view of the film.  I can't even call it a true "diss" within the movie's context. The character seemed to be saying "don't just read about passion, live it!"


Post 1

Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 6:07pmSanction this postReply
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I own a copy of Bioshock. It is a really cool, unique video game. And it doesn't bash Objectivism, it actually pushes quite a few individualist concepts, such as requiring you to buy ammo and purchase genetic upgrades, or showing clips bashing socialism and religion and praising freedom. The game doesn't push a Pollyannish view of Objectivism, true, but it depicts an Objectivist society that collapses, not due to the logical consequences of a completely Objectivist philosophy, but rather due to unanticipated consequences of gene-splicing technology where the users slowly go crazy.

If anything gets bashed, it's gene-splicing.

Post 2

Wednesday, February 20, 2008 - 7:36pmSanction this postReply
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Check this out (Y. Brook):


==================
"I think there is a certain benefit. Ultimately it doesn't portray objectivism well, but the mainstreaming of objectivism is important too. And it's important to see the willingness to debate those ideas even in a video game."
==================

This is contra to a point Dennis Hardin had brought about some well-intentioned Objectivist websites doing Objectivism a dis-service. Apparently, even Yaron Brook is okay with some bad publicity -- and sees value in public debate.

Thanks Stuart!

Ed

Post 3

Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 7:38amSanction this postReply
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"The Fountainhead diss is so incredibly dinky in Dirty Dancing, I can't believe anyone even caught the title of the book being tossed aside on first view of the film. I can't even call it a true "diss" within the movie's context. The character seemed to be saying "don't just read about passion, live it!" "

From DIRTY DANCING:

Robbie Gould: I didn't spend all summer long toasting bagels just to bail out some little chick who probably balled every guy in the place.
[Baby is pouring water into glasses for him]
Robbie Gould: A little precision please Baby... Some people count and some people don't. [brings out a copy of The Fountainhead from his pocket] Read it. I think it's a book you'll enjoy but make sure you return it. I have notes in the margin.
Baby Houseman: You make me sick. Stay away from me, stay away from sister or I'll have you fired.
[Baby pours the jug of water on his crotch]

Draw your own conclusions.



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Post 4

Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 8:46amSanction this postReply
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Draw your own conclusions. (Joe Maurone)
Wow. (In reference to the "Dirty Dancing" reference....)

I've seen the movie, and barely remember it (except for certain scenes accompanied by memorable songs) so I couldn't exactly place the scene Teresa and Joe are talking about.

Reading Joe's post, though, it does appear that having the character who's been anointed the resident "slimeball" or "bad guy" whip out The Fountainhead doesn't exactly compliment Rand or her thinking...especially with the "Some people count and some people don't" comment. That was definitely intentional on the part of the screenwriter.

As Teresa pointed out, most people probably did miss it. But for anyone who thought it was unusual enough for a character to whip out a book in the middle of a discussion---in order to better explain why he's an asshole---(in the moral context as presented as "proper" by the movie's story) ...well, let's just say I'm not surprised at the outcome of Stuart's story:

I know what he means, because a girl once told me that she loved the movie Dirty Dancing before she ever heard of Ayn Rand. This film makes a derogatory allusion to The Fountainhead, and that actually piqued that girl's curiosity, which led to her reading a lot of Objectivist literature. Hooray! :-)

That didn't stop her from being a ditzy PETAphile, though. :-(
(Though I personally prefer the term "PETArd", myself.)

Okay...now I have no respect for the writers of that movie.

(I consider the writers of books, movies, etc. that specifically reference Rand---as opposed to just referencing certain ideas---in a light meant to be negative, as definite enemies of Objectivism and Rand.)

Now if what Jim Henshaw says is true, that


The game doesn't push a Pollyannish view of Objectivism, true, but it depicts an Objectivist society that collapses, not due to the logical consequences of a completely Objectivist philosophy, but rather due to unanticipated consequences of gene-splicing technology where the users slowly go crazy.

If anything gets bashed, it's gene-splicing.
then I wouldn't consider that game to be anti-Objectivist, necessarily. Just...jaded, and a little pessimistic, I guess.


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Post 5

Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 10:09amSanction this postReply
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(Though I personally prefer the term "PETArd", myself.)


Thank you - am glad my coining is taking root....;-))


[tho am finding my alternate one - PrETArd - is catching too.....]

(Edited by robert malcom on 2/21, 10:11am)


Post 6

Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 11:14amSanction this postReply
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Ha!

Robert, you were the one I got that from (I first saw it in one of your posts.)

I wasn't sure if you had actually coined it or not---or else I would have given you proper credit---but I was thinking of your post when I wrote that...)

LOL!

Erica


Post 7

Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 12:05pmSanction this postReply
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"then I wouldn't consider that game to be anti-Objectivist, necessarily. Just...jaded, and a little pessimistic, I guess."

Erica -- Bioshock is a FPS (First Person Shooter). Pretty much by definition it's WAY pessimistic, since it would be the world's dullest (or at least quirkiest) FPS if the armor-clad, multiple-gun toting protagonist could win the game by going around hugging all the opponents and sweetly reasoning with them until they all were peacefully converted to his or her POV, instead of, you know, having to SHOOT pretty much everything that moves just to survive.

Though, in perhaps one of the most heartening developments in FPS gaming, the protagonist of the game repeatedly must make the choice throughout the game of gunning down unarmed "little sisters", or rescuing them from a dreary, ghoulish serfdom. (FWIW, I invariably rescued the little sisters when I played the game.) There's a reason many different sources proclaimed this the top rated game the year it came out.

OK, have I thoroughly established myself as a nerd with this post? ;)

Post 8

Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 1:33pmSanction this postReply
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Erica:

(Though I personally prefer the term "PETArd", myself.)



Robert:

Thank you - am glad my coining is taking root....;-))


What?! There's an anti-PETA epithet out there competing against my "PETAphile"? I cannot have this! In the end, there can only be one . . . epithet.

I challenge Robert to a showdown! Using those fake Nintendo guns!

Post 9

Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 6:47pmSanction this postReply
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When dealing with an insult, my older brother whom I look up to a lot always tells me "just consider the source"

The movie "Dirty Dancing" slamming Rand? Pfft.....give me a break.....consider the source....

The New Individualist has a great article about this game. Mostly slamming it as promulgating a philosophy that there are no harmony of interests between men but rather a dog eat dog outlook on life.
(Edited by John Armaos on 2/21, 6:50pm)


Post 10

Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 7:14pmSanction this postReply
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Like Jim, I own a copy of Bioshock, bought it a few days after it came out last summer. It's one of the best PC games I've ever played, and certainly the most thought-provoking.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Bioshock has a nice collection of quotes, and the ones from Andrew Ryan (or at least some of them) are as beautiful as anything John Galt says in his magnificent speech.

A sampling:

"Whenever anyone wants others to do their work they call upon their Altruism. 'Never mind your own needs,' they say, 'Think of the needs of... of whoever. Of the state. Of the poor. Of the Army, of the King. Of God.' The list goes on and on. How many catastrophes were launched with the words 'Think of yourself?' It's the king and country crowd who light the torch of destruction."
 
"We all make choices...but in the end, our choices make us."
 
"What is the difference between a man and a parasite? A man builds, a parasite asks, 'Where's my share?' A man creates, a parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?' A man invents, a parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God...'"
 
"I believe in no God, no invisible man in the sky. But there is something more powerful in each of us, a combination of our efforts, a great chain of industry that unites us. But it is only when we struggle in our own interests that the chain pulls society in the right direction. The chain is too powerful and too mysterious for any government to guide. Any man who tells you differently either has his hand in your pocket or a pistol to your neck."

"What is the greatest lie ever created? What is the most vicious obscenity ever perpetrated on mankind? Slavery? The Holocaust? Dictatorship? No. It's the tool with which all that wickedness is built. Altruism."

Ken Levine and his coworkers did a fantastic job, and they richly deserve all the many awards and honors Bioshock has received.


Post 11

Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 7:36pmSanction this postReply
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Jim, I'm glad you chose to rescue every little sister. So did I. You then were surely thanked by Tenenbaum and praised as "the light of the world" by her.

I'm an "Honorary Uncle Vince" to my buddy Dave's girls, ages 2 and 4, and I couldn't imagine doing any harm to them or anyone who resembles them, even in the world of a PC game.

I particularly enjoyed fighting the game's embodiment of Ellsworth Toohey (and you know who I'm talking about) who spent the game manipulating and poisoning my mind and taking advantage of my good intentions.


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Post 12

Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 11:40pmSanction this postReply
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The game's villainous stand-in for Ayn Rand, Andrew Ryan (yes, it's intentional that all seven letters of her name are in his name), says:

What is the greatest lie ever created? What is the most vicious obscenity ever perpetrated on mankind? Slavery? The Holocaust? Dictatorship? No. It's the tool with which all that wickedness is built. Altruism.


That line is over-the-top, and anyone who hasn't thoroughly read Ayn Rand's works would consider that an incredibly insane remark. Someone who has only read Atlas Shrugged, but none of Rand's nonfiction, would consider it insane. The next thought that would immediately come to most people's minds is, "If that's what the real Ayn Rand thought, then she was clearly a kook, so now I know I don't have to waste my time reading her nonfiction."

This is particularly because the "altruism is more evil than the Holocaust and the slave trade" statement isn't put in any wider context -- "altruism" isn't clearly defined in the game as the doctrine that you should sacrifice what you value more for the sake of what you value less. For someone who believes, from the outset, that "altruism" only means being of beneficence to others, it is incomprehensible to blame "altruism" for mass murder.

Ayn Rand's criticisms of "altruism" are worthwhile because she explains what she means by "altruism," and then proceeds to give her reasons. And she has an entire book to clarify her views. The more of The Virtue of Selfishness you read, the less susceptible you are to straw-men arguments about Ayn Rand prevailing upon you to violate other people's rights for your own gain.

By contrast, when Andrew Ryan denounces altruism as the Holocaust's cause -- and doesn't bother to give a coherent explanation of how he came to such a conclusion -- the statement is ridiculous. Ryan talks about the Soviet Union's collectivism, but doesn't verbalize an articulate connection between altruism and political collectivism.

You can hear how the actor Armin Shimerman (famous for his roles on Star Trek: Deep Space Nine and Buffy the Vampire Slayer) delivers those lines over here. His voice sounds like that of Captain Nemo or a cheesy James Bond villain (which is how he is supposed to sound, given Ken Levine's comparison of Rand to "Dr. Doom"). Are we to believe that it wasn't Ken Levine's intention for the player to interpret Ryan's remarks as ridiculous?

Andrew Ryan speaks in a voice that is a caricature of how you would expect a psychopath to sound (although, in real life, psychopaths are dangerous precisely because the way they speak is very normal and inconspicuous). When you hear Ryan's psychopathic tone, the complaints about "altruism" are intended to come across as psychopathic as well.

Also note the loud, creepy violin music.

A lot of political speeches would sound sinister if you read them in that voice and had scary music playing in the background.

That YouTube video I linked to, was made by a libertarian who likes Ayn Rand. What's weird about the game is that lots of teenage boys play it, misinterpret its message as an endorsement of Ayn Rand, and then read Atlas Shrugged without the sort of skepticism that Levine hoped the game would imbue them with. Levine has nothing against his teen fans reading the book, but he wanted them to do so with a jaundiced eye (what most people would consider a healthy dose of skepticism). The skepticism doesn't seem to be manifest in the guy who made the YouTube video.

Those teenage boys look up to Andrew Ryan the same way that I looked up to Count Dracula and Dr. Frankenstein when I was nine years old. The ironies keep piling up.

Post 13

Thursday, February 21, 2008 - 11:59pmSanction this postReply
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Stuart -- Yes, the people saying these Objectivist things in the game sound creepy, but that's because every other character in the game other than the protagonist and the little sisters is insane. It's up to the people playing the game to listen to the various tapes scattered around the gamespace and realize that it's not the Objectivism that caused them to go insane, it was the gene-splicing gone amok.

Will some people playing the game not get this? Sure. Is it wrong of the game designers that they gave credit to the intelligence of the players and trusted them to catch this nuance? Absolutely not -- this game was rated so highly because it is a smart, cerebral game that is a huge upgrade to your usual run-and-shoot-anything-that-moves FPS.

I think this game will bring many people around to reading Ayn Rand's work and to adopting her individualist philosophy.

Sure, some people will take away the wrong message, but the overwhelming majority of people in our society have adopted a collectivist message. Even if only one out of ten players of this game adopt Ayn Rand's philosophy as a result of playing it, that is a net gain compared to if they were left to the tender mercies of our government indoctrination camps (aka public schools).

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Post 14

Friday, February 22, 2008 - 12:36amSanction this postReply
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I am not trying to say that BioShock is a bad game. What I am saying is that the game does deride Objectivism. Evidence points to that whether any of us love or hate the game, or whether any of us love or hate Objectivism. Whether you find that bad is up to you.

To say that the game doesn't criticize Objectivism, but instead criticizes genetic engineering, doesn't pan out.

When we say that the game doesn't bash Objectivism, I think we could benefit from clarifying what we mean by that.

If a game could only be considered "Objectivism-bashing" if its primary intent was to deride Objectivism, then it is not "Objectivism-bashing." Ken Levine's main intention was to create a shooting game. The vilification of Objectivism was an afterthought.

Further, if the game could only be "Objectivism-bashing" if it said, "You shouldn't read Ayn Rand's books," then it would not be "Objectivism-bashing." Ken Levine is fine with your reading all of Ayn Rand's books.

However, the game does deliberately paint Objectivism in a negative light.

Also, the vilification of technological progress does contradict Objectivism. There's nothing inherently bad about using genetics to play God with Mother Nature, when you aren't violating anyone else's rights to life, liberty, and private property. Objectivism is largely pro-technology, and it is very difficult to find an Objectivist who shares the fears that environmentalists and certain evangelical Christians have about biotechnology, embryonic stem cell research, germline genetic engineering, and therapeutic human cloning.

Most significantly, the game's theme seems to revolve around hubris, much like Oedipus's hubris.

Oedipus Rex is the opposite of a Horatio Alger story. Oedipus is basically a Horatio Alger hero in the sense that he wants to be responsible for himself and take charge of his own fate. But for him to simply take individual responsibility and pride himself upon it is sinful, and he has to be smote by higher powers. There is a similar theme in the stories of Phaeton, Icarus, and Arachne.

And note that Ayn Rand mentioned Phaeton, Icarus, and Aranchne, and she sided with all of them.

Edgar Cayce's telling of the Atlantis story is not only similar in theme to BioShock, but similar to Oedipus Rex. Cayce said that the people of Atlantis were sophisticated with their technology, and it made them arrogant. And so their technology eventually sowed the seeds of their destruction, and caused the continent to sink beneath the ocean.

Frankenstein has that theme, wherein Dr. Frankenstein has good intentions, but he is so arrogant in his single-minded goal of creating progress for mankind that his achievement eventually turns against him and becomes his undoing. He is smote, just like Oedipus and Icarus.

And then we come to BioShock. Andrew Ryan isn't trying to cheat anyone in the beginning. He's idealistic like Victor Frankenstein. But there is much hubris in his idealism, and so his achievement turns against him, and his glorious enterprise becomes the source of his humiliation. He is smote like Oedipus and Dr. Frankenstein before him. And he's so hubristic that he's unrepentant to the very end.

Every "rise and fall" story of some self-made man, like Citizen Kane, is in the anti-Horatio Alger, Oedipus tradition. The same goes for all of these Frankenstein stories about the misguided businessman whose corporation accidentally creates a monster that kills everyone.

That's the traditional, fatalistic, pessimistic view.

Ayn Rand, by contrast, sides with the Horatio Alger view. She has that can-do attitude, where you can aim for the stars, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, and -- unlike Oedipus, Dr. Frankenstein, and Andrew Ryan -- actually succeed in the end. Isn't it nice to see the ambitious, trailblazing inventor win for a change? That's what we see in the victory of a Howard Roark and a Hank Rearden. :-)

And why does Andrew Ryan suffer from all this hubris in the first place? It's because of his unshakable devotion to an ideology that caricatures Objectivism.

The game isn't "anti-Objectivist" in the sense that it is telling you not to read Objectivist books. It is "anti-Objectivist" in the sense that the idealism that makes so many people passionate about Objectivism, is subjected to ridicule.

Post 15

Friday, February 22, 2008 - 1:00amSanction this postReply
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A pessimistic attitude against general technological progress -- which, by extension, can include genetic engineering and nanotechnology -- does have a certain conflict with Objectivism.

These are three Objectivist essays that discuss the matter.

* "The Curse of Frankenstein" by Robert W. Tracinski

* "The Virtue of Playing God" by Alex Epstein

* "Immoral to Ban Human Cloning" by Harry Binswanger


I don't think Ayn Rand would fundamentally disagree with the conclusions of any of these pieces. They philosophically concur with her views from Return of the Primitive: The Anti-Industrial Revolution.

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Post 16

Friday, February 22, 2008 - 7:59amSanction this postReply
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Excellent retort, Stuart.

Ed

Post 17

Friday, February 22, 2008 - 10:52amSanction this postReply
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"Also, the vilification of technological progress does contradict Objectivism. There's nothing inherently bad about using genetics to play God with Mother Nature, when you aren't violating anyone else's rights to life, liberty, and private property."

Is it vilifying technological progress when, in order to create the right game conditions so it's enjoyable to play (i.e., to plausibly create hordes of deranged villains trying to kill the player's character), the game creator hypothesizes that a specific technology turns out to have really nasty unintended side consequences?

Would I be bashing technological progress in general if I pointed out that Marie Curie got radiation poisoning because she didn't anticipate that refining her samples with bare hands was way more dangerous than she anticipated?

Would I be bashing technological progress in general if I pointed out that the people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki slowly dying from fallout poisoning in 1945 may have noticed certain unintended consequences of a line of research that was turned to ends that some of the researchers who made the scientific breakthroughs leading to that technological application neither anticipated nor desired?

Perhaps the game designers did intend to bash Objectivism -- there seems to be some ambiguity about the take-home message of this game, or at least some differences of opinion -- but I think we'd have to hear them explicitly say so to resolve this ambiguity.

Post 18

Friday, February 22, 2008 - 9:13pmSanction this postReply
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Stuart, thank you for your very thorough and civil thoughts.

"Ayn Rand, by contrast, sides with the Horatio Alger view. She has that can-do attitude, where you can aim for the stars, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, and -- unlike Oedipus, Dr. Frankenstein, and Andrew Ryan -- actually succeed in the end. Isn't it nice to see the ambitious, trailblazing inventor win for a change? That's what we see in the victory of a Howard Roark and a Hank Rearden. :-)"

Your point is well taken, and I was truly disappointed in the game to have the Toohey-esque Atlas/Fontaine win a short-lived victory over Ryan through my efforts. It did get my blood boiling and raring to get that manipulative lying bastard within range of my wrench. To quote The Godfather of Soul, "Get ready you motherf***...for The Big Payback!"

I guess I rarely found Ryan or his voice to be "creepy" or "psychopathic". In his voice most of the time I hear pride and the courage to "judge and be judged" with a clear conscience. I already had the proper definitions of "selfishness", "altruism", etc. in my mind as I played the game and listened to Ryan's speeches.  I've had my (formerly Chomsky-reading leftist) mind turned around by Atlas Shrugged, The Fountainhead, The Virtue of Selfishness, Return of the Primitive, etc. so to be honest I heard a lot of myself in his voice. After beginning to espouse Objectivism-inspired ideas, I've been condemned as arrogant and judgemental by former intimates, but so be it. None of us should apologize for having standards and having earned our self-esteem by embodying them, and I heard a kindred voice in Ryan.

You do have a point, but I find it overly pessimistic, with all due respect. Maybe some of hoi polloi will be turned away from Objectivism by Ryan's tone of voice and eventual decline and defeat.

However, I agree with Jim's optimistic statement:

"I think this game will bring many people around to reading Ayn Rand's work and to adopting her individualist philosophy. Sure, some people will take away the wrong message, but the overwhelming majority of people in our society have adopted a collectivist message. Even if only one out of ten players of this game adopt Ayn Rand's philosophy as a result of playing it, that is a net gain compared to if they were left to the tender mercies of our government indoctrination camps (aka public schools)."
 
Anyway, thanks again for starting the discussion. I'm glad to be discussing the game and Objectivism here in a friendly forum. I posted some pro-Objectivism comments on Bioshock bulletin boards and have encountered the most pedestrian arguments and an army of straw men, but I may have gotten a few folks to read Rand for themselves and to question what Ryan calls the "great inversion."
 
 
 

 
 





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