RoR: Forum

It's time to get on my soap box to trumpet some of my causes.

This tragedy reminded me of one main reason why every car I have owned has had manual windows. If you are in the water and have power windows, you are most likely screwed. If you have manual windows, you can still get them open. Water pressure makes it quite difficult to get doors open, so the windows are your best bet for getting out.

Gas taxes should be turned over to the states entirely. Ultimately, highways should be privatized. But turning control of roads over to the states is a step in the right direction. The federal bureaucracy just leads to more corruption and overhead.

While I may not blame environmentalists for the construction of the bridge, we definitely have them to blame for lobbying against highways, cars, etc. I live in Austin, Texas--a city which has a very loud anti-car lobby. They file a lawsuit anytime anyone tries to build a road. This leads to delays and higher costs. They also promote other expensive pet causes like busing.

We can also blame the government for destroying the railroad via regulations. This, of course, has lead to more and more things being shipped by truck. This made the roads more expensive to maintain. Sure, truckers pay gas taxes as well. But I am always amazed at how nice roads in Canada are, and it how much easier it is to drive up there because they still use trains for shipping.

It's a well-known fact that many truckers overload. They drive on roads with 40-ton limits and have loads of 50 or more. This eventually wears out the road as well. The fines for overloading are big, but the laws are hardly enforced.

Transportation is a nightmare in the Twin Cities now. The crummy airline that has a homebase there and practically owns MSP cancels flights because they don't have enough pilots. And now they lose a major highway for at least two years.

Finally, can you imagine how much worse this would be if it had happened in January?

(Edited by Chris Baker on 8/03, 11:59am)

Post 21

Thursday, August 9, 2007 - 10:27pm

As bad as this was, it could have been a whole lot worse. The toll stands at seven dead and six missing, so we'll just call it thirteen dead as a result of this. Considering the number of vehicles involved, it was fortunate that most of the people on the bridge lived. In many cases, the cars didn't even go into the Mississippi.

When I first heard this news, my thoughts turned to the collapse of the Silver Bridge in December 1967. This collapse resulted in the deaths of 46 people, and there were only nine survivors. This bridge was over the Ohio River and had been built in 1928.

This was a major factor in the collapse as it had been built for cars that weighed about 1,500 pounds. By 1967, most family cars weighed at least 4,000. This probably was not a factor in the Minnesota bridge collapse. Cars may even be lighter now.

The Silver Bridge had been privately built and operated until it was bought by West Virginia in 1941. The Ohio River still has a few toll bridges, but they have struggled against nearby "free" bridges.

Investigators later determined that the bridge's unique design made inspection and detection of the dangers impossible, even with today's methods. There was a crack in a single eye-bar which eventually broke. This resulted in the collapse of the bridge, "folding like a deck of cards." As a result of the collapse, a bridge of similar construction about 70 miles away was immediately closed and replaced.

In all the hysteria, what is ultimately forgotten is how rare such tragedies are. You are certainly more likely to die in an auto accident than you are in a bridge collapse. And if bridges become too expensive because of many safety regulations, they just won't be built at all.

What has caused highways to become so expensive? No doubt one reason is the government. I think our best hope is that eventually we will have "cars" like the Jetsons. Then, we won't need roads at all.

Post 22

Friday, August 10, 2007 - 2:39am

" I think our best hope is that eventually we will have "cars" like the Jetsons. Then, we won't need roads at all." CB

No, Just Umbrellas

Post 23

Friday, August 10, 2007 - 6:16am

This tragedy reminded me of one main reason why every car I have owned has had manual windows. If you are in the water and have power windows, you are most likely screwed. If you have manual windows, you can still get them open. Water pressure makes it quite difficult to get doors open, so the windows are your best bet for getting out.

And that reminds me of this: manual, electric, or door opened against equalized pressure, as hard as it might be, try to remember in that situation, with water rushing into your car, that the last gasp of air you manage to take is pressurized relative to 1 atm.    Don't try to hold your breath on the way to the surface, or you will survive the egress, but die on the way up as your lungs explode.  Don't wait until you 'feel pressure', it's too late, your lungs are tissue paper.   Just blow a nice steady stream of bubbles out of your mouth constantly on the way up and follow your bubbles to the surface, if it is dark and murky.

If you've taken a decent[*] scuba class, you already know this, but if not, this may seem counter-intuitive/against your natural instincts when in that situation. The situation is not like 'free diving', where you take a breath of air at the surface, hold your breath, dive down (get pressurized), and return to the surface(de-pressurize).   In that situation, all of you -- lungs included-- are getting compressed on the way down.   But in the 'take a last gasp and hold your breath model', your lungs are fully expanded at the bottom of your dive, and then the air expands on the way up, tearing apart your lungs if you try to hold your breath.   So, blow those bubbles.   Don't worry about 'running out of air', you won't, it's expanding.   Folks already on their way to the surface aren't going to die from not enough air; they are going to die from too much air.

[*] By 'decent' I mean, not the hour in the resort pool that the carribbean dive excursions provide.   Something with several weeks of classroom and dive time.

Post 24

Friday, August 10, 2007 - 8:44am

That's a good point, Fred. In fact, the pressue often disorients people so much that they actually don't know which way up is.

About 50 miles from Austin is a place called Jacob's Well. Most people aren't crazy enough to go diving there. But there are enough crazies who do it anyway. Some of them get killed, and many of them are experienced scuba drivers.

This does show what you can learn in a good scuba driving. I once did a free dive in a swimming pool. I went down about 15 feet and felt like there was a big brick on me or something. The pressue is extremly intense.

I hardly use the air conditioner in my car. As a result, my windows are usually down. That would help me in this type of situation. I like to think that even if I had been in the water, I would have ended up okay. Certainly if the windows are already down, my escape is easier.

What people forget is that you go into a type of temporary shock or insanity when you are in this type of life-death situation. It's extremely hard to think clearly and coherently. It's easy to think about what you might do. It's much harder to know what you actually will do if you are in the situation.

Post 25

Friday, August 10, 2007 - 12:30pm

A side thought -- It was mentioned that manual windows are safer than power windows in situations where a car is submerged. Actually, both are horrendous if one attempts to roll down a window when a car is submerged. Granted, the window would unroll before going completely under, but you may be surprised how quickly a car sinks in cases like these. Once under the water, the water pressure is simply too great to enable a person to unroll the window -- even manually.

What works? Work with the water pressure. The water wants in the car, it is pressing on the windows -- so, give it a way in. Take something with a sharp point (preferably a swiss knife -- but even a key will work) and strike the center of your window (side windows, not windshield). The window will break, giving you an escape route.

We've had local demonstrations of this tactic (yep, the "guinea pig" was really in a car submerged under water), and I have never seen it fail. As others have mentioned, there are certainly other safety considerations once the escape has been made, but this would be the first step.

Post 26

Friday, August 10, 2007 - 12:50pm

Excellent information, which I'm sure not many people are aware of!

Post 27

Saturday, August 11, 2007 - 4:39pm

With regard to my commentary on the Silver Bridge disaster, I forgot to mention a bizarre coincidence. The road which passed over that bridge and over its replacement today is US Highway 35.

Post 28

Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 10:16am