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Post 20

Monday, May 2, 2005 - 8:45amSanction this postReply
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Clarence,

You must look at people as individuals, even "children" as young as twelve or thirteen. I know a women who at twelve was raped by her older sister's boyfriend. Her mom was a drunk who was hardly ever at home, her father had left years before. This women ran away to live on the streets of Oakland. She stayed at girlfriends houses, sometimes only a few days at a time until she moved on. She finally stayed for an extended time at one best friends house who's mother learned of her situation and was sympathetic. She forged her mother's signature to change schools and get into the schools she wanted. She got excellent grades and never got in trouble and for all the school authorities knew she came from a model home. At sixteen she was "ratted out" by another girl friends parents who learned from their daughter about her situation. She fortunately got a break from the child services. They allowed her to stay at the home she had been staying in and the family was allowed to be her guardians. She got a scholarship to UC Berkeley and continued there to get her degree. Basically, she made all of the decisions in her life from the age of twelve and was successful doing it. If she had gotten pregnant from the rape and she could not have gotten an abortion it would have been a disaster for her. If she had been put in "foster care" I've no doubt she would have run away, with good reason. I know, because I was in foster care for a few years as a child. I know they're not all bad, supposedly, but in my case, think of dogs in a kennel. You don't know what you're saying when you advocate taking freedom away from "children" who are in situations like this. They may be more mature in some ways because of their experience than you will ever be.

Post 21

Thursday, May 5, 2005 - 6:38amSanction this postReply
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The latest news I have heard reports that the state will indeed allow this girl to abort.  Our esteemed Governor Jeb Bush publicly called this decision a "tragedy" and a "loss of life" but appears willing to call it quits in this battle.

We desperately need a stronger movement of the secular right in America!


Post 22

Thursday, May 5, 2005 - 8:35amSanction this postReply
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So long as there are those who claim a potential is same as an actual, there will remain the myth of an 'unborn child'.....and therefore, a 'tragedy' and so-called 'loss of life'...

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Post 23

Thursday, May 5, 2005 - 12:01pmSanction this postReply
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Robert, are you saying there is no such thing as an unborn child? 

You've obviously never been pregnant. They don't instantly become people the moment they are born. It should, however, in the early months of development, be the mother's choice as to whether the child should be brought to term as she will be the one ultimately responsible for taking care of the child.


Post 24

Thursday, May 5, 2005 - 2:59pmSanction this postReply
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A child is what has been born - an 'unborn child' is a contradiction in terms.... It is  the nature of the concept.

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Post 25

Thursday, May 5, 2005 - 6:21pmSanction this postReply
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Robert, dude, did you just throw a dictionary at me?   

Not only did you leave a lump on my head, but dammit you split a hair!  (See definition 2a)

child   (chld)      n. pl. chil·dren (chldrn)
  1. A person between birth and puberty.
    1. An unborn infant; a fetus.
    2. An infant; a baby.
  2. One who is childish or immature.
  3. A son or daughter; an offspring.
  4. A member of a tribe; descendant: children of Abraham.
    1. An individual regarded as strongly affected by another or by a specified time, place, or circumstance: a child of nature; a child of the Sixties.
    2. A product or result of something specified: “Times Square is a child of the 20th century” (Richard F. Shepard).

Idiom:
with child
Pregnant.


Post 26

Thursday, May 5, 2005 - 7:29pmSanction this postReply
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Definition 2a is wrong - it is a religionist invocation - as is the idiom [which, btw, is a phrase of old which does not mean you have a child, but that you are coming into having a child - that is, you have a child to be].

Post 27

Saturday, May 7, 2005 - 10:33amSanction this postReply
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There is a furtherance which needs be said to this.  As said, an 'unborn child' is a contradiction in terms,  The [2a] defonition referred to is a bogus one because it directly contradicts the first one, instead of being an extended or derivative - there is a totally different concept involved, one which posits a religionist's viewpoint into an otherwise neutral conceptualization.  This in turn violate an integrated view of existance ['there are no contradictions in reality'] by turning the pregnancy of a female into a form of slavery, a servitude of being.  This itself, in turn, is a violation of the sovereignty of the individual.

The word 'child' stems back from OE thru OT or Old High Germanic, and always referred as being the mother's 'fruit of the womb'.  It is a term in reference to 'what is begat', that is, delivered from the mother.  'To be with child' refers to an upcomingness, a begatting - a potential, a futureness, not an actual.

We are, as are all higher order organisms, overlays of more primitive ancestralness.  This is recognised, for example, in that area of the brain referred to as the primitive brain - a commonness even to reptiles.  It is also noted in the various stages the fetus goes thru in its development into the human organism - as is also the case with any other higher order organism into their respective kind.  One of the inducements to survival of higher organisms is that of the propensity of the gestating female to take an interest in the viability of upcoming offspring, to the extent of hormonal inducements which emit emotional bonding.  This is not a conscious mannerism, but an attribute of specie survivability - and not just humans, but again, all higher order organisms.  Humans, however, have an extra overlay - their consciousness of self awareness, which by its accord induces anthromorphric responses.  This is to say, humans tend to attribute human characteristics to what is only superficially human in nature.  This is noted, for instance, in giving 'human attributes' to pets.  It is also taking place when viewing sonograms of the fetus in the womb - to the uneducated, it looks like a human, therefore it must be human, even tho in fact it is only becoming human, in the process of acquiring life as a human [remember, 'life is a proces of self-sustaining and self-generated action'], a life, by the way, which begins when the 'spirit' - the 'breath of life' enters at birth.

That is right.  The spiritual refers, in fact, to that non-material aspect of life which begins with the materialness of breathing in air - when the process thus begins self generated action.  There is nothing inherently mystical, just a reflective reaction to being cut off from the mother womb, a sort of self-firing mechanism wherein 'all systems go' is in effect, and life - human life - begins.  The reason why life begins at birth is because he act of breathing air induces a feedback to the brain, from the lungs, which are not needed to operate until birth, because the oxygen is received from the mother.  It is then, with the activation of breathing, the importation of air into the body, that consciousness takes place - and human life begins.

If it helps to understanding fetal development from a non-emotive standpoint, I suggest reading Morovitz and Trefil, THE FACTS OF LIFE, Oxford University Press.


Post 28

Saturday, May 7, 2005 - 12:34pmSanction this postReply
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Luke,

The latest news I have heard reports that the state will indeed allow this girl to abort.  Our esteemed Governor Jeb Bush publicly called this decision a "tragedy" and a "loss of life" but appears willing to call it quits in this battle.

We desperately need a stronger movement of the secular right in America!
I'm not sure what you intended to convey here, do you think Gov. Bush ought to have taken a tougher stand to stop the abortion?

MH


Post 29

Saturday, May 7, 2005 - 7:23pmSanction this postReply
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Robert, please run to the store and get me some Excedrin and some hair conditioner. You are giving me a migraine and splitting hairs with that stuff.  I am certainly not arguing against the girl getting an abortion. That is something that should always be the mother's choice (and in the case of a pregnant ward of the state, I would strongly encourage abortion).

Apparently I used the word "child" interchangeably with "fetus" and that set off some sort of siren within you and you beaned me with a dictionary. I opened it to the definition of child and read it aloud to you. You said it was wrong and yada yada yada. 

I know that the Christians talk about life beginning at conception and this is probably your standard argument against that stance.  As a mother, I find your stance rather offensive as well.  Are you are saying that a fetus is not alive and that the oxygen from the mother's womb is not sustaining life because the fetus is still attached via the umbilical cord?  Yet you argue that breathing/needing oxygen is what makes one alive. Whether the oxygen is delivered to the child via the mother, the child's own breathing or a tube in an incubator in a neonatal unit doesn't really matter.

Reproduction is not a dichotomy of being dead (unborn) or alive (born).   It is a continuum of development from sperm/egg  —> fertilization —> development in utero —> birth.  There is a point about halfway through development of the fetus where he/or she is viable outside of the womb.  The slap on the ass the doctor gives when the baby is born is not like an on/off switch for the child to come to life.  The child was alive inside the mother.  I know this. I have two overgrown clusters of cellular masses of goo named Tina and Sean.

(Edited by katdaddy on 5/08, 5:11am)


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