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Post 40

Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 9:48pmSanction this postReply
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Micheal, Mark is responding at least in part, I think, to my post. I do take the position that democracies are less warlike than non democracies.

My point is, show me all the wars that are happening between democracies. Wars are either non democracies fighting democracies, or non democracies fighting each other. The only notable exception I know of is the US civil war. Democracies do not tend to fight each other, for reasons I pointed out in my earlier post.

The US entering WWII was another instance of a war between a democracy and dictatorship(s). As was the Korean War, Vietnam war, cold war in general, WWI, both the gulf wars, the various middle east wars, the variuos wars in the sub african continent,  etc.

Look what happened to countries like Italy, Germany, and Japan after becoming real democratic countries. A half century or more of aggression ends, rather abruptly.

I would be interested to see someone come up with an example of 2 bona fide democratic countries, with individual riughts and a free press, going at each other in an all out war. Not some minor border clash where 3 soldiers were injured, 2 by friendly fire, but a real war. I think you will look long and hard, and stretch the definition of democracy, before finding such an example.


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Post 41

Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 10:18pmSanction this postReply
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Thank you for that comment Steve.

You wrote:
democratic countries, with individual riughts and a free press
Just so as to avoid confusion, this qualification of yours is very helpful. It keeps certain types people from making long, drawn out arguments about democracies not necessarily being the same thing as individual rights - and basing such overly simplistic diatribes on your work.

btw - This is painfully obvious, but a modern democratic government is set up by a founding document, a constitution, which is the proper place for individual rights to be spelled out - and from what little I have personally read about, they usually are in some form or other.

I am not an expert on modern history, but I tend to agree with you on this. You make good sense.

I like kicking the ass of the bad guys anyway.

Michael

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Post 42

Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 10:33pmSanction this postReply
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Barbara,

(me blushing, looking at the ground and shuffling my feet)

Uhm... well... ahem...

That isn't a very good source, is it?

Another poster linked the article in a post to me, I read it - it was pretty factual in relating the reporter's own quest for sources, so I started looking for documentation about the shredder on google to get other reports. I couldn't find anything serious after looking at about 10 full pages of google links.

What I stated as fact was apparently an allegation in the mainstream media, so I corrected myself.

But dayamm! I sure didn't have to give out that free advertising...

ahem... er... here...

... did I?

(me walking off dejected with red ears and shoulders hunched over...)

Michael

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Post 43

Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 12:04amSanction this postReply
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Steve,

I think that it borders on the dishonest to continue promoting a thesis to which I have already posted, in post 31 on the current thread, 7 counterexamples. They were not minor conflicts. The Franco-Prussian war of 1870 was the second-bloodiest armed conflict of the whole period between the Napoleonic Wars and WW I. And of course WW I started as a conflict between two parliamentary democracies, Austria and Serbia, both arguably freer in 1914 than any country in the world is today.

Or are you just repeating it because it is your idea and so it must be true, reality be damned?

Post 44

Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 12:23amSanction this postReply
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The problem with any 'democracies don't go to war with each other' type claim is that 'democracy' is so vague that counterexamples can be avoided just by defining a country not to be a democracy. In many such debates the word 'democracy' comes to denote a mythical creature. (eg. UK isn't a democracy since it has a monarch, USA isn't a democracy since it is really a republic, CSA wasn't a democracy since slaves couldn't vote - same for USA for that matter, etc.) The most interesting take on it I've seen is:

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/demowar.htm

He does try to address the question without completely making democracy a meaningless term. Per his definitions at least, democracies do fight each other, though less often than nondemocracies fight each other, and by far democracies vs nondemocracies fight the most overall.


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Post 45

Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 1:47amSanction this postReply
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Adam,

I very much appreciate you comments about democratic governments which actually engaged in war with each other. (I caught them in your previous post also.) They need to be properly examined and incorporated in Steve's idea for it to work.

I don't believe that any thesis, however attractive, is ever properly served by ignoring facts and the truth. (This is one of the reasons I asked Steve's concept of democracy to be qualified.)

However, I believe that he has the start of a useful and truthful thesis. Only a start, though, because it is way too general and his concepts are not properly defined. As it stands, and if he stubbornly refuses to go where the facts lead, it is and will remain nothing more than an opinion. With some work, it could be developed into something much more serious.

Hellfire anyway!

I'm not any good at this fence sitting crap. I really like to kick the ass of bad guys and this sounded like as good a reason as any to do it.

Get to work, Steve. There's still a helluva lot of work to do, but I think you are on to something. Get it right, dude.

Michael


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Post 46

Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 9:51amSanction this postReply
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Regarding the discussion on Democracies and War, I think there is a clear difference in context between the 21st century and powers that may or may not have been "democracies" in the 18th-19th centuries (Prussia, Austria, etc.).  The reason being that the era of great power wars is over, thanks to the USA.  All the so-called evil of interventionism has resulted in a world where now the main danger is terrorists and individual dictators, not massive wars with millions dead. 

The anti-war folks have yet to tell me how the world would be better off with communism, fascism and whatever was left of the USA and Britain as an "Anglosphere" facing off against each other.  All of these would not have been defeated without US intervention.  Lack of US commitment to a military would also have meant that weapons development - Jets, Rockets, even nukes, would have probably come from Germany and even Russia or Japan.  At best, had we not all died in a nasty nuclear war, the world would be an economic and military mess of horrific proportions.  Oh, and not to mention the virtual extermination of Jews would have taken place. 

The bottom line is that in the 21st century, it is a question of integrating the non-functioning Nations, and this will require exporting security by the only power that can do it, the USA.  The US does get benefits.  These are:
1.  There is no significant state military power to fear
2.  Globalization reaps dramatic economic benefits, and the larger the sphere, the more wealth exists.  Minds create wealth, remember.
3.  The other Nations DO pay for US security.  How?  By subsidizing our debt when they buy US securities and relying on the US currency as the standard of exchange.
The world gets - state on state warfare virtually eliminated, nuclear great power warfare virtually eliminated, and places like Iraq can now see their people enter the world again after living in the dark ages for so long.

Sometimes we will need to use diplomacy and economics and "connect and win" - for instance we can do this with Cuba, maybe even Iran.  Sometimes we will need military intervention or its threat, like in Iraq and in North Korea.  we will also need to "win the peace" and that is where we need to be less bone-headed and invite the Euros and anyone else who wants to help in.  We have to be more open minded and ask Nations to come in with whatever help they can, when they can.  There is a real possibility that we can eliminate almost all war by the end of this century in such a fashion.


Post 47

Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 7:42amSanction this postReply
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Adam,

Both the Austria-Hungarian empire and Germany were monarchies. The war started with the assisination of the "heir to the throne", archduke Ferdinand. I would not normally regard assassination of an heir to be the start of a war between legitimate democracies. http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=4es6lafl0ul4c?method=4&dsid=2040&dekey=AustroHu&gwp=8&curtab=2040_1&sbid=lc03b

Referring to Nazi Germany as a democracy is about as loony as referring to Saddam Hussein's Iraq as a democracy. Didn't he get 99% of the vote?

Did we have elections in Germany there during the war? Was there a free press? Once Hitler gained power he proceeded to sew things up, there was no more democracy, there was no free press, dissenters were shot.

Democracy is certainly not a garuntee of peace, nothing is. But give people a chance to vote and they will almost always choose things that are central to their own selfish needs, which typically involve staying out of wars unless they are defensive in nature. Only monarchists and dictators really like the extension of power. For 2 real democracies to go to war you would have to believe that a majority of the populace suddenly decided that an aggressive expansion, sending their sons and dollars to war, was in their best interests. This would be a real stretch.

Does anyone really doubt that a world populated exclusively by democracies with a free press and rights would have far fewer wars then a world populated by dictators? What could conceivably make anyone believe that? I find it astonishing that anyone would seriously maintain this.

The US has had many wars. Were any of them with real democracies?


Post 48

Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 7:54amSanction this postReply
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Aaron, I agree with your comments on the issue, and I don't think it detracts from the point I am making.

Democracies, individual rights, and a free press are certainly on a continuem. The further along on this continuem, the less warlike they will be, particularly among each other.


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Post 49

Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 6:27pmSanction this postReply
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Mr. Kelly, if I'm knocking down a straw man when I dispute the argument that installing democracies in the Middle East and elsewhere makes the United States more secure, then why do you insist on propping him back up? In fact, that argument is made in this thread by Steven Zarwulkoff on the first page! One encounters this argument frequently from apologists for this non-defensive war.

Similarly, one invariably encounters the argument that if one opposes any U.S. military engagement, as for example the Gulf War or the current mess, then one would have favored "appeasing" Hitler and we'd all be speaking German. In fact, that line is usually presented as the ultimate argument stopper, from which the "incorrect" and "unpatriotic" are supposed to recoil in shame and embarrassment. But it's not an argument supported by facts; it's modern statist mythology.

Jon, if the conclusion is forgone that Germany would have conquered the world had not the USA and even Britain eagerly sought to correograph events (Britain's issuing Poland a guarantee of sovereignty that everyone knew she could not enforce, FDR's complicity concerning Pearl Harbor) to push their populations into the Second World War, then I wonder if you have considered the following? Why was not Soviet Russia able then to conquer the world? The USSR was a larger empire with vastly greater man power, a huge powerful military machine, sufficient nuclear capability to blacken half the world's land mass, and a socialist system similar to Germany's. Moreover, the Soviets enjoyed the prestige of enthusiastic backing from intellectual elites around the globe, and received aid from even the United States in the form of grants and huge financial credits for the export of commodities which were their only saleable good. Yet this invincible empire commanded by organization men ten feet tall, rather than conquering the disorganized, quarreling masses of the world, keeled over on its face!

It seems to me that the Soviet experience argues against your belief that Germany, which failed in its attempt to subdue and invade England (before US entry into the war), could have gone on to overwhelm not only Britain, but the USSR and the United States! Systems that institionalize the bad appear ugly and powerful, but they are really ugly and impotent.


Post 50

Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 8:29pmSanction this postReply
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Kurt, your theory that Pax Americana is on the cusp of ending warfare is mistaken.

Consider the attempt by the American military to subdue and occupy comparatively tiny Iraq. There are roughly 300,000 American soldiers stationed there at a cost of hundreds of billions of dollars, armed to the teeth with the most expensive sophisticated weaponry, equipment, and gadgetry known to man, and barracked and fed in comfort. What has the world's "sole superpower" accomplished with this overwhelming economic and military superiority against an impoverished population that scrambles and scratches for its next meal? Large areas of the country are effectively though informally controlled by Iraqi guerrila fighters; US equipment and personel are routinely blasted by bomb throwers who use low tech, inexpensive incendary devices readily avaliable to any fighter; and American generals testify before Congress that the war effort requires more troops and better equipment! Consider the ratio of men and money put up by the Superpower to that put up by the rag tag insurgents: possibly 5,000 rebels versus 300,000 troopers; possibly 300 billions in dollars versus a few thousands in dollars.

I am no expert on military theory, but I think that modern technology has eroded rather than reinforced the efficacy of huge military organizations and our status as "superpower". Our generals are fighting the last war with its emphasis on terrifying aircraft and missles with awe-inspiring accuracy (though they may not be consistently accurate--another subject). As contrasted with the trillions the United States spends on Pax Americana, a bad guy with fifty or a hundred thousand dollars and some Eastern European or Asian connections can buy a nuclear bomb deliverable in a backpack or suitcase. I do not think this frightening and ugly propect is seriously disputed; rather it's ignored. Bad guys routinely smuggle drugs into prisons, in spite of intensive government management designed to keep them out. Violent political movements around the globe have become experts in smuggling drugs and weaponry into and from the USA and elsewhere. If some embittered, ugly terror organization is determined to murder many innocent Americans by smuggling in a nuke, then I assume that eventually they would succeed.

One example that approaches this possibility was the "on-board explosion" that brought down a commercial aircraft off Cape Cod during the Clinton years. The official line, which was unsupported by evidence and contradicted by many facts, was that some mysterious explosion destroyed flight 107. However, numerous eye witness accounts from credible, affluent Cape Cod residents, together with other theoretical analysis, proved that the flight was brought down by a missle launched from a small boat at sea. The boat rapidly departed the area when the aircraft was hit. Of course, Bill Clinton was not about to admit that a terrorist attack had murdered 200 innocent Americans on his watch, not with an election approaching. But it had.

The security and the liberty of Americans depends on rights-respecting, non-interventionist foreign policy. When our military kills thousands and thousands of innocent people in adventures billed as "wars of liberation", they resent and often hate us for that injustice--even if we throw them food packets and set up elections. True, some positive benefits flow from deposing dictators, just as one can showcase success stories from the War on Poverty. But the longer range consequence will be much unnecessary bloodshed and destruction; and an American populace that is less affluent, less free, and less secure.


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Post 51

Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 9:03pmSanction this postReply
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Hi Mark,

You say that Germany was unable to subdue Britain, even prior to our entry into the war, as though we were doing nothing prior to our entry. Britain prevailed in no small part due to our support of her. We were shipping to and supplying her massively. You pretend this either wasn’t happening, or didn’t matter—Britain would have been fine anyway, you assume. Well, she would not have been. Without our support, (or without the inestimable Churchill) she would have been much more likely to cave in. If Al Gore had been president, she would have made the best deal she good, knowing that America simply would never help, and she would have caved as France had. Hitler’s job against Stalin would then have been very much easier without Britain and America drawing German resources away from the eastern effort. But you know that Germany failed in the Battle of Britain, so you want to say that we never had to be involved because Germany was going to fail in that Battle anyway.

You make the same mistake with postwar USSR. You want to hold onto the historical outcome that the USSR was scheduled for extinction in 1991, and pretend that we never had anything to worry about, we never had to waste billions, nor face the USSR in proxy cold war battles, nor risk nuclear annihilation. We only had to sit and wait for 1991.

Jon

Post 52

Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 9:22pmSanction this postReply
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Mark,

This is my reply to your post #50. I know that nothing anyone can say will change your mind in any way. I believe your "facts" are mostly made up:

"US equipment and personel are routinely blasted by bomb throwers who use low tech, inexpensive incendary devices readily avaliable to any fighter;"

RPG's are not low tech. They are not "readily available", they were stockpiled and hidden, or they are being smuggled in from out of the country. These terrorists lose big time when they try to go "head to head" with American troops which is why they are targeting other Iraqi's.

"..rag tag insurgents: possibly 5,000 rebels versus 300,000 troopers; possibly 300 billions in dollars versus a few thousands in dollars."

5000 rebels? a few thousands in dollars? You cannot know what you're talking about. You are claiming knowledge YOU CANNOT KNOW. Doesn't make for convincing rhetoric.

"a bad guy with fifty or a hundred thousand dollars and some Eastern European or Asian connections can buy a nuclear bomb deliverable in a backpack or suitcase. I do not think this frightening and ugly propect is seriously disputed; rather it's ignored."

There are literally millions of people in the world with that kind of spending power. If it could have been done, it would have been. The possibility is not ignored, I've heard it discussed many times. Why do you think Saddam wasn't able to accomplish this? Not enough money? He was really a nice guy? If they were so readily available he would have paid almost any price for the capability. No country with nuclear device capability is going to allow their technology to be used by some "rag tag" terrorists because of the very real possibility of it being traced back to them.

"However, numerous eye witness accounts from credible, affluent Cape Cod residents, together with other theoretical analysis, proved that the flight was brought down by a missle launched from a small boat at sea."

Not proved. The one thing that makes this extremely unlikely is that no one tried to take credit for this act. It is inconceivable that if a group had done this on purpose they would not have claimed credit for the propaganda value.

"The security and the liberty of Americans depends on rights-respecting, non-interventionist foreign policy."

We must be proactive to destroy those that would destroy us and our way of life. Radical Islam declared war on the west, they are reaping what they have sowed. We cannot turn our backs on people with a dark ages mentality and show a lack of resolve if we ever hope to live in a peaceful world. The longer range prospects are peace and prosperity.

Post 53

Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 6:11amSanction this postReply
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Just one factual quibble.

Mark wrote:

 "a bad guy with fifty or a hundred thousand dollars and some Eastern European or Asian connections can buy a nuclear bomb deliverable in a backpack or suitcase. I do not think this frightening and ugly propect is seriously disputed; rather it's ignored."

I've had recent discussions with an acquaintance well-placed in the CIA, and another friend involved in the process of accounting for and dismantling former Soviet empire nukes. These people are very connected and very well informed about such matters. They assure me that the "suitcase nuke" scenario is still, thankfully, a myth. If it were not the case, then -- given bin Laden's huge wealth -- the scenario you describe above would have been the one that occurred on 9/11.

Sophisticated weapons on the black market, not to mention the mythological backpack nukes, cost a lot more than the few thousand bucks you've been citing. That's why terrorists have needed state sponsors: only at the governmental level do the kinds and levels of support and infrastructure exist to provide sophisticated weapons, training, staging areas, passports and cash (the mother's milk of terrorists and their quote "insurgencies" unquote). That's also why a policy of going after state sponsors of these thugs makes sense -- not as measures of "aggression," but of self-defense.

As a general proposition, the fact of so much violence by Al Qaeda against other Muslims -- and their terrorist activity within European nations that OPPOSE U. S. foreign policy -- refutes the claims that these characters are merely responding to American "imperialism" and "aggression."


Post 54

Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 8:36amSanction this postReply
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They assure me that the "suitcase nuke" scenario is still, thankfully, a myth.

I’m relieved to hear that, Bob. However, given the evolution of technology will this remain true? Will it come to the point that even without state-sponsorship we will have a problem?

Let’s remember that after the 1993 WTC attack they went back to the drawing board and worked on a better plan. Given the Islamic Holy Grail – the nuclear destruction of Washington or New York – what is our next step after removing rogue regimes?


Post 55

Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 9:44amSanction this postReply
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Mark, The US Military is currently equipped to deal with primarily opposing militaries, and not insurgencies.  In other words, while we held on to the (mistaken) Powell doctrine, that was fine.  It was brilliant in eliminating organized opposition.  However, it is by no means equipped properly for the SysAdmin (or winning the peace) role.  That is something we are only now coming to grips with, and is a valid criticism of the military as it is now and is slowly being addressed.  The needs for this role will involve more expert civilians, will be lower tech, and more personnel driven.

The whole effort put forth will bring benefits, which I previously described, such as an elimination of terrorism as the disconnected states become re-connected and the economic benefits of trade.  For example, it is easy to say we spent "billions" to win the cold war, and what did we get?  Well, we got a hell of a lot in economic payback, that's what.  The whole globalization of the 90's was a result, for one, and the wealth it created. 

Jon is absolutely right when he says you want to "have your history" remain exactly the same with a radical change in what the US did - it wouldn't happen that way, and is a false argument to take real history and then use that to "prove" an idea that would contradict the events of that history itself!

Finally, you need to stop reading all these conspiracy theories.  Have you heard of the one where the world is run by these alien lizards?


Post 56

Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 10:17amSanction this postReply
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I'll get back to Jon with some interesting facts about the attempted and aborted German invasion of Britain.

Concerning Iraq, I readily concede that I am no expert about weapons, what they cost on the black market, where they come from, exactly how many insurgents are blowing up US tanks, Humvees and troopers, and so forth. However, I know what I read in the news, which is that the huge investment in troops and money have been unsuccessful in subduing an insurgency of terrorists that is smaller in numbers and dollars invested. Is it fair to claim that the ratio of men and money invested by the Superpower is vastly greater than the men and dollars invested in the terrorist insurgency? Of course, provided that one is willing to see what one sees.

So my main point stands: tiny, underfinanced terrorist groups have the ability to tie down a vastly superior military force, and keep that force on the defensive. I doubt that Pax Americana will accomplish anything but American regimentation and bankruptcy.

Bob Bidinotto has much more confidence in the competance of the CIA than I do. Was not the CIA the government agency that in the late seventies reached the conclusion that GDP of the Soviet Union exceeded that of the United States? If a nuclear disaster never occurrs, than Halleluiah! But my understanding is that the breakup of the USSR created the means and opportunity for smuggling enriched unranium, and that the organization men that "run things" over there can't account for missing supplies. My understanding is sketchy, but the fact that this has not yet happened doesn't prove anything, though I wish it did.

Our foreign policy of precipitating non-defensive wars clearly incites hatred of the USA. Bin Laden has declared publically that the purpose of his terrorist campaignis to force the US to remove itself militarily from the Middle East. I don't dispute that Islamic totalitarians are hostile to individual liberty. But the fact remains that our military has no legitimate business in the Middle East, or in Vietnam, or in Nicaragua, or in Panama; it's business is to protect Americans in the US from foreign invasion. If our government withdraws troops and bases fromaround the world, ends the wrongful destruction and bloodshed of non-defensive wars, stops trying to "run things" in the Middle East and elsewhere, and allows Americans to trade with anyone in the world (at their own risk), then Americans will cease to be targeted by hate-filled terror organizations.


Post 57

Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 1:32pmSanction this postReply
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” Our foreign policy of precipitating non-defensive wars clearly incites hatred of the USA. Bin Laden has declared publically that the purpose of his terrorist campaignis to force the US to remove itself militarily from the Middle East.” - Mark

Why repeat the enemy’s propaganda? Islam is at war wherever Muslims come in contact with non-Muslims. This is why Islam is said to have “bloody boarders.” Do you really think that everyone is picking on the poor Muslims? Islam is an imperialist supremacist ideology – it needs no reason for war besides its own internal motivations.

The attack of 9/11 was purely religious in nature – it was a reaffirmation of the Islamic faith and it galvanized Muslims through out the world. Part of the process of humiliating the Infidel is to blame the victim for his demise. This is the reason for the propaganda you so willingly cite. In effect, when you ‘blame the victim’ you have become a useful idiot for our enemy by helping complete the attack.


Post 58

Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 1:40pmSanction this postReply
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Just a quick note concerning Robert Bidinotto's assurances that suitcase nukes do not pose a threat. I hope these assurances are reliable, but think they are not. The unmistakeable trend since the Second World War has been the proliferation of nuclear weapons until today, small authoritarian regimes have them and are getting them. It seems plausible that at some point non-state organizations will find the means to acquire a nuclear bomb. As I tried to point out earlier, delivery of such a device is not difficult.

You argue that terrorist organizations cannot exist without government support, a proposition that is partly but not completely correct.  Terror movements are ideological causes that will seek funding where ever they can get it: from rich murderous bad guys like Bin Laden, from misguided malicious liberals, and from states when possible. Trying to wage war against every state on the face of the earth that someone in politics suspects of sympathizing with one or another such violent ideological movements is self defeating, incredibly destructive of human life, and unjust.

There are, as I recall, something like 2 or 3 billion muslim people on the earth, compared with 300 million Americans. When our military goes to the Middle East or elsewhere in Muslim regions to wage war, killing literally hundreds of thousands (Vietnam, Gulf War, the Iraq Adventure), destroying property on an unprecedented scale, imposing suffering that none of us posting to this site have ever remotely experienced, is it not true that some percentage of those people become embittered toward the United States? Of course it is true. Am I and other anti-war objectivists imagining that people would so react, or inventing this out of thin air? Of course not.  This is the way people respond to suffering and to those who visit it upon them.

As we continue to prosecute this War on Terror, we recruit terrorists to organizations like Bin Laden's. Americans are targeted for terror today, not because most Muslims wake up in the morning fuming about McDonalds, or Intuit, or Sam'sClub, but because they fear and hate the policies of our government. As the Bush Administration threatens other Middle East countries with invasion, it should not surprise us if those threatened governments lend support (I do not know that they do) to Iraqi insurgents in an attempt to shore up resistance to an American invasion.


Post 59

Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 1:51pmSanction this postReply
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Wow, Mark, you couldn’t have said it better if you were actually on bin Laden’s payroll. You got the party line down to a tee. First, there’s the defeatism – we, the greatest country in history, can’t fight them and win. Then you turn our decades of helping Muslims into villainy – a tactic used by our enemy to demoralize us and heap on even greater demands. Next you blame us for the ideological drive that is part of Islam’s 1400 year history. Perigo’s "Saddamite" is too nice a word for this. Someone know of a stronger word?

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