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Post 20

Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 11:16amSanction this postReply
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George,

You have your facts all wrong. Hitler received 43% of votes cast in 1933. The National-Socialist party then merged with the Nationalist party (A.K.A Stahlhelm) and in the last free elections, in 1935, Hitler's party received 56%. Subsequently Hitler's Communist and Socialist competitors were banned, but other parties - such as the Catholic Center party, which voted for the Enabling Act that established Hitler's dictatorship - operated without interference until the fall of the Third Reich. The Enabling Act was renewed every 3 years after 1935, always by democratic majority vote in the Reichstag.

Post 21

Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 11:19amSanction this postReply
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Sorry Adam, but it is you that have the facts wrong.

PRIOR to Hitler assuming power, and unfairly influencing elections by brute force - he never broke the 39% mark. The fact that after 2 years of Hitlerian propoganda and intimidation, he was only able to muster 56% in a spurious election - only makes my point even more so. By the way, using the term "democratic majority vote" in the context of a one-party dictatorship is a bit misleading. Lastly, the Center Party did *not* survive the ban on all other political parties - it did NOT survive until the end of the war.

George

(Edited by George W. Cordero on 3/29, 12:34pm)


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Post 22

Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 11:51amSanction this postReply
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Hitler rose to power in accordance with the laws governing democratic proceedure in Germany. Of course he was a dictator; that's why I referred to his rise to power as an example of the irrelevance of democracy to the implementation of a "constitutional republic" of limited government. The non-democratic states of Singapore and Hong Kong permit their subjects more economic freedom than does the democratic state of the USA. I would much prefer to live under the non-democratic rule of Pinochet in Chili, than under the democratic
despotism of Garcia in Venuezuela.  

No one is the standard bearer of the "will of the people", emphatically including democratically elected government officials, because "the people" is an imaginary collective without a "will". In many respects, the rise of democracy has been sympathetic to the rise of the totalitarian state. Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and other twentieth century demons held and wielded power, not in their own names as monarchs, but in the name of "the will of the people" (recall the "Blood of the Volk"...the "Dictatorship of the Proletariat"). As you know, dictators always claim to be the Mystical Embodiment of the will of the collective. Democrats also claim "a mandate" from "the people". It is all statist bunk.

Rightly understood, democracy is merely a procedural rule by which people can select government officials. Other procedures may work just as well--or better--in the context of night watchman government. The issue of the scope of power wielded by any particular state is seperate from considerations of procedure in choosing who will carry out the  function of government. Democracy is not essential nor necessarily friendly to individual freedom: individual rights are essential to freedom.

"Moral equivalence" of course is meaningless without reference to the moral principles that give rise to principles of individual rights. So when I criticize American war making in the twentieth century as antagonistic to individual rights, and you accuse me of asserting some fictional equivalence between totalitarian monsters and good American democrats like FDR and the Bushes, your accusation makes no sense. Of course the Stalins and Hitlers were far worse than the American socialist democrats. But the American democrats engaged in non-defensive war making that led to death and destruction on a much larger scale than would have obtained otherwise. How can I make this simple point clear? I am not defending dictators. I am trying to defend individual rights! 

We all dislike the sand castle building of "rationalism". However, our disagreement does not prove anything about my "rationalism" nor about yours. 


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Post 23

Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 11:52amSanction this postReply
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Mark,

I read and reread your post and still can't get a handle on who you are talking to.*

* (Edit - I am referring to the one before this last one of yours - we crossed posts.)

Nobody on this thread (or even on SOLO to my knowledge for that matter) ever postulated that democracy is a cure all for social evils, or that it could not be used for evil ends.

A lynching by majority rule is still a lynching. I am sure that all are aware that rights must be part of the equation for democracy to work.

I believe you set up a straw man to knock down.

What I find irritating about posts like yours is that they are always peppered with adjectives like "illegitimate," "wrongful," "rights-violating," "ill-advised," etc when they portray the American position.

If I were to take this at face value, I would start with "illegitimate," for example. A case could be made that all war is illegitimate as it will violate the laws of one country or the other. But in the specific case of the Iraq invasion, under American law, it was quite legitimate. It received all due legal sanctions before proceeding.

Whether something like that should be legitimate or not is a whole other issue. But the fact remains that the invasion was completely legitimate under American law - despite your insinuation to the contrary.

This proliferation of misused adjectives states more about your mindset than actual fact. That is why you come off as so anti-American to some readers (including me).

As George said, check your premises... and vocabulary - I would add.

Michael

(Edited by Michael Stuart Kelly on 3/29, 11:57am)


Post 24

Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 12:00pmSanction this postReply
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George,

I'd like to see your sources. The Encyclopedia of World History, Sixth edition gives the figure of 44% (the 43% figure I remembered may have been the result of truncation instead of proper rounding) for Hitler and 8% for his Nationalist allies in the March 1933 election.

As for the Catholic Center party, it was briefly dissolved with all the Catholic parties (probably to put pressure on the Vatican for better terms in negotiations on a Concordat - the Vatican yielded and gave Hitler everything he wanted) but then it reconstituted itself as just the "Center Party."
(Edited by Adam Reed
on 3/29, 12:04pm)


Post 25

Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 12:14pmSanction this postReply
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I've not always been religious about sticking to the letter of the subject of a thread, but the factual dispute about Nazi Germany seems to be steering us well off topic.

I for one am more interested in the topic of the specific evidence of anti-Americanism manifesting itself in blogs at AntiWar.com, AntiState.com and LewRockwell.com. Much as they deny it, many partipants there seem to revel in any defeat of U. S. foreign policy or deaths of U. S. soldiers, while whitewashing the U. S. government's adversaries, no matter how vicious and odious.



Post 26

Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 12:24pmSanction this postReply
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Adam,

Hitler came to power on January 30th of 1933. The March election was after the Reichstag fire, after the arrest of thousands of Communist, and after the other parties were scrambling to kiss Hitler's ass. As a result, the NSDAP managed to raise its vote total to 43%. The election results *after* Hitler assumed power are grossly unreliable due to the enormous coercion of the SA and SS once they were *in* power. To be honest, even under the Weimar Republic, both Nazi and Communist vote totals as a percentage of the population were inflated due to the brutal tactics they employed against the members of more moderate political parties.

But, we are spiraling this thread off the topic.

George

(Edited by George W. Cordero on 3/29, 12:25pm)


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Post 27

Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 12:32pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,
I for one am more interested in the topic of the specific evidence of anti-Americanism manifesting itself in blogs at AntiWar.com, AntiState.com and LewRockwell.com.
You show an astounding appetite for examining the habits of pissants.

Michael


Post 28

Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 12:56pmSanction this postReply
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Yeah, Michael, I know. My interest, however, is serious. The case for individual rights and liberty is being badly undermined in public arenas by pseudo-"libertarians." I plan to publish on this soon, so this is one way of doing a bit of homework.


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Post 29

Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 2:00pmSanction this postReply
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In response to Mr.Kelley, I use "legitimate" in the same sense that one refers to an "illegitimate" government--usually a government that came to power in ways contrary to someone's conception of natural law, as for example without an election. By illegitimate war-making, I mean state activity that lacks legitimacy because it violates natural principles of politics, such as individual rights.

I hear repeatedly that the installation of democracy somehow leads to non-belligerant governments that by implication tend to more fully respect individual rights. Supposedly, this clears the way for any US military adventure waged in the name of  "democracy", regardless of the thousands killed or billions wasted, because our "freedom" is thereby protected. I've seen variations of this argument on this site several times, and I have frequently bumped into it elsewhere.

But, as we should all know, the key to non-bellicose governments is not democracy.  The key is (in the last analysis) a philosophical regime of reason by which justice is defined and rights defended. If Bush wants to build a better non-belligerant Iraq, he'd eventually accomplish more by ending US military presence in the Middle East, promoting free trade (and thereby the unsupervised dissemination of western ideas of individualism), and working to reduce the scope of government under his own jurisdiction. No doubt this will happen in the near future, as soon as the President completes the privatization of Iraqi oil fields. 

Because I am an American, I don't normally pound the table about the terrible injustices committed by other states. I can't influence what policies are imposed in Cuba. However, I might have a tiny influence about how others view the policies of our own government. Does this mean that I have a warm spot for Fidel? Of course not. Because I understand that our government's military-foreign policy causes great injustice and suffering, I pound the table about it. But I live in the United States, not Afghanistan or Iran or Peru, because I value the freedom and prosperity we all enjoy.

I disagree that anti-war writers on LRC or other sites are anti-American, whatever that means. They fervently oppose the war, and naturally they denounce the government that prosecutes it. Just as do posters to this site, sometimes they write things that are indefensible. Does this imply they favor Saddam Hussein or other thugs because they don't spend equal time in their denunciation? Does Harry Browne secretly harbor animosity toward Americans? Of course not. But they fervently oppose American non-defensive war making.


Post 30

Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 3:01pmSanction this postReply
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"But, as we should all know, the key to non-bellicose governments is not democracy.  "

I think this is just armchair reasoning. How many democracies in history, real democracies with a free press and individual rights as we understand them, have engaged in war upon each other? I can think of one, the US civil war. After that, I don't know. Every other war I am aware of invloved a non-democracy on one side atleast.

The reasons for this should be pretty plain, the common voter might be persuaded to vote in favor of candidates who wish to pursue a war to defend democracy, but the common voter typically has no interest in wars of aggression. He can lose his children, and his tax money, but what has he to gain? The dictator increases his power and feeds his ego with such a war. The common voter does not.

In fact, I regard this as the principle argument in favor of democracy. Because what else do you get out of it...you certainly can't count on good leaders, you just get popularity contest winners. Democracy provides for a peaceful change in government, and an inhibition for wars of aggression. The tradeoff is that you largely wind up with idiots running things.

If you want to get Iraq to be pro-reason, that is a nice goal, but I think we still have alot of work to do here at home first. In many ways we are less pro-reason than countries in Western Europe right now.


Post 31

Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 3:53pmSanction this postReply
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True, you don't know - a situation in which it is wise not to assume. Between the revolutions of 1848 and World War I, most of Europe west of the Russian Empire consisted of parliamentary democracies - mostly constitutional monarchies on the British model. There were plenty of major wars with parliamentary democracies on both sides - Austria vs Italy, Hungary vs Romania, Germany and Denmark, Germany and France, France and Italy and so on. WW I and II had democracies, as well as dictatorships, on both sides. And so on...
(Edited by Adam Reed
on 3/29, 5:28pm)


Post 32

Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 4:42pmSanction this postReply
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To add to Adam Reed's interesting comment, consider also the history of the world's "greatest democracy", the United States. I don't know what the sentiments of most Americans were prior to WWI concerning Wilson's great crusade to Make the World Safe for Democracy. But we all know that Americans were heavily opposed to America going to war in Europe or Asia prior to WWII; polls showed better than 3 to 1 opposition.

This opposition disappeared (or was silenced) with the disaster at Pearl Harbor, which Robert Stinnett ("Day of Deceit") and other historians have proven was coreographed by FDR in his long running campaign to push Americans into a war that everyone knew (before we entered it) was non-defensive.

Britain, another great democracy, could have avoided going to war with Hitler as well. Hitler had no designs on Western Europe or Britain prior to England's "guarantee" of Poland's territorial sovereignty--a guarantee designed by big government British Crusaders to provoke a conflict for the altruisitic purpose of taking out a bad German dictator. Hitler offered on two occasions to respect British sovereignty, and to acknowlege her empire and dominance on the oceans, in exchange for British acceptance of Germany's territorial ambitions to the east. In other words, Hitler sought a balance of power with Britain. His target was Soviet Russia. One can read a fascinating history of this era written by a small government conservative in the fifties, entitled "America's Second Crusade" by William Henry Chamberlin. Another great book on the events leading to America's entry into Europe's war is "Roosevelt's Road to Russia" by anti-communist George Crocker.


Post 33

Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 4:56pmSanction this postReply
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Mark says:
 
"This opposition disappeared (or was silenced) with the disaster at Pearl Harbor, which Robert Stinnett ("Day of Deceit") and other historians have proven was coreographed by FDR ..."

"Hitler had no designs..."
 
"Hitler offered on two occasions to respect ..."

"England's "guarantee" of Poland's territorial sovereignty--a guarantee designed by big government British Crusaders to provoke a conflict for the altruisitic purpose..."
 
oh OH - some true colors are begining to show !

Tell us Mark, I'm just curious, approximately how many Jews were exterminated during WWII? Or does your revisionist history stop just short of being brave enough to answer that question? Or is that topic one that you reserve for private discussions only?

George


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Post 34

Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 5:09pmSanction this postReply
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Mark, of course Britain could of avoided going to war with Germany, temporarily it did.  The idea that Britain was enthusiastic for war is nonsense.  What Britain did,eventually, is the thing that separates it from the other countries of western europe.  It faced reality. The price was high,unbelievably high and still being paid.  Does that make it wrong?   Can you say who these "big government crusaders" were because I have never heard Neville Chamberlain described in that way before?

Post 35

Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 5:14pmSanction this postReply
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Bravo David!

But I fear you are wasting your time.

George


Post 36

Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 7:06pmSanction this postReply
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Of course, Hitler murdered 6 million jews and gypsies, an atrocity that we all abhore. However, the military objective of the allies was never to rescue prisoners of concentration camps. By this I mean that no bombing raids were conducted, for example, to cut supply lines to the camps, or to destroy the compound walls to aid the escape of prisoners; no paratroopers or aircraft were risked on rescue missions; etc. Until American troopers actually arrived at the camp locations, the camps were ignored as inconsequential by allied military brass.

By what moral calculus does one justify the coerced sacrifice (recall the military draft) of 600,000 American soldiers in a military engagement that did not involve the defense of Americans, for the sake of liberating another people from dicatatorship? Could American entry into WWII been sustained without a military draft and heavy taxation? Of course not. Are we to support such rights-violating government oppression for the purpose of bailing out your sentimental attachment to The One Great War? I think not. Was Ayn Rand showing her true colors with her commentary to the effect that both World Wars, Vietnam and Korea, were futile collectivist crusades?

What did your Great Crusade accomplish? Millions of dead in a conflict that may well have been fought on a smaller scale for a shorter time; all of Eastern Europe overrun by FDR's favorite, Joseph Stalin and his mass murderers; huge casualties of innocent civilians at non-military targets that include Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki; and finally, the permanent burden on Americans of heavy taxation, stifling controls, and a huge military establishment that has been around so long most cannot imagine life without it. In this last sense, Americans were freer before FDR's push to war than after. But I thought these non-defensive wars are prosecuted for the sake of individual liberty.

Churchill was a Big Government Crusader who pushed hard for Britain's entry into WWI and WWII. Opinion before the Second War in Britain was opposed to entry, but collectivist altruist career government officials eagerly sought to committ Britain to a de facto military alliance with France, according to Paul Johnson's History of the English People. Johnson explains that for centuries, Britain had consciously avoided military alliances with European powers for the avowed purpose of avoiding Continental wars. This outlook changed with the rise of social reformers and socialism. The British, who controlled the world's largest navy and potentially vast man power from its empire, were actively encouraged in their pursuit of war by FDR, who on two or three occasions (1939)dispatched American emissaries to informally assure the British that sooner or later Americans would be fighting at their side. Of course, FDR did not inform the American people of these assurances.

The Second World War represents a gauzy, unfocused historical ideal to war hawks of every ideological stripe and variety--left, right and center. My experience has been that      many prefer to keep it unfocused. Refer to evidence that Hitler's ambitions were to the East, and one hears only outraged sputtering denial. Mention FDR's treachery concerning Pearl Harbor and one hears shrieking protest instead of probing questions or factual refutation. Bring up the never discussed issue of the draft and taxation and the response is a shrug. Ask by what right Americans should have been sacrificed to a global rescue mission unrelated to their own defense, and one receives accusations--as predictable as they are tiresome--of treason, of dictator hugging, of moral degeneracy.

But these are tactics, I suspect, of those who sense they tread on thin intellectual ice and feel unhappy about it.


Post 37

Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 7:19pmSanction this postReply
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Oh, come on you guys. It’s obvious that if Britain would have minded her own business she would still be Great, Hitler would have killed the USSR, but the USSR would have stabbed fascism to death right before dying itself, the Cold War would never have happened and we would be living in libertarian paradise today.

Well, we would have had to stay out of WWI as well, and the north should have let the south walk in 1860. But given all that—we’d be free as birds today!

(Disclaimer—none of the above is an argument, please save me the post that points that out. The above is purely for the enhancement of George’s Tuesday night scotch experience.)

(Or, I suppose I mean to make one argument: that WWII was indeed defensive, as our non-involvement would have left a Germany in control of Britain, Europe, the USSR, the middle east and a Japan in control of the entirety of east Asia and the Pacific. The cold war would have been against those two and one of them (Germany), not us, would have won it.)

Jon

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Post 38

Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 7:30pmSanction this postReply
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Mark,

I have to call you to task once again and ask, who are you talking to?
I hear repeatedly that the installation of democracy somehow leads to non-belligerant governments that by implication tend to more fully respect individual rights.
I can almost guarantee that you didn't hear it here on SOLO.

Then you start railing against democracy as if support of democracy was the world's main problem.

It isn't.

You can talk about this all day but that will not make those pissants over at "antiwar.com" and similar places smell any better.

There is a really silly little idea that is being given sporadic exposure in the media nowadays, the idea that Iraq did not have anything at all to do with 9/11. Maybe that is where you are getting your idea that they were merrily leading their little oppressed lives over there and not bothering anyone else in the world.

Well, the government of Iraq may not have been formally involved, but you can bet your little booty that it was a very friendly nation to the idea, with all the clandestine activities, funding and secret facilities that that implies. I still get rankled when I remember seeing Saddam and his honchos laughing their asses off on the news about 9/11.

You keep going on about non-defensive war and so forth. I will repeat what I once wrote on another post:
I don't care too much for President Bush, but I will stand with him on this: if you are an aggressor and you attack me with intent to kill, I will kick your ass. I will kick your cousin's ass. And I will kick the ass of your whole damn family if your people keep growling at me. But that also means: you stop and I'll stop.

Only then will I start talking about morality.
That - in practice - is what we are really doing in Iraq (among other things). The only thing thugs understand is bigger guns.

The idea of then implementing democracy over there (with an emphasis on including human rights in the laws - without which democracy is a sham, and which I see reported in the media) is to make sure that the country will never do stupid things will all that oil money it gets from the West, like building nuclear arms - and do good things like, you know, capitalistic trade and stuff.

See if you can understand where this is a different idea than the one I quoted from you at the top. And think about it a little the next time you go shopping without having to worry about being blown up.

(ahem... btw - my name is spelled Kelly, not Kelley...)

Michael


Post 39

Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 9:27pmSanction this postReply
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Michael, do not -- I repeat do not! -- believe a damn thing you read in the Guardian. I don't know if Saddam had "shredders" or not, but it is a mistake to use as a source, the most left-wing and antiwar rag in Britain.

Barbara

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