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Post 80

Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 9:39pmSanction this postReply
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Sorry, Hong.

Until you submit your photo, Jennifer’s wishes prevail.

Jon


Post 81

Monday, January 17, 2005 - 12:43amSanction this postReply
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Alec,

The position I'm trying to take comes from my thinking that children are individuals and ought therefore to have a right not to be assaulted. I think (or at least hope) that all of us here would agree with that. The difference is that most of you seem to assert that parents have some sort of exemption simply because parents may need to hit a child in order to discipline him - as as best I can see all anyone has really done is asserted that (and thrown in a few insults, which of course prove absolutely nothing about their position). On the other hand there's been a huge amount of evidence presented here that that isn't the case, and that the psychological effecting corporal punishment can have on children actually make it undesirable - which to me reinforces the idea that children should have some right against having this done to them. In my "ideal scenario" the'd be no legal exemption for parents, everyone would understand why and not resort to hitting. David insisted he would do so in any case if he thought it necessary as a last resort. I concede (not "hope") that the law would be unenforceable in that situation where in effect no physical harm is done to the child.

So how could it be "objectively defined"? In all honesty I'm not sure. But nor do I think the "status quo" of parents in effect having special rights with regard to a child is really defensible from an Objectivist standpoint, and nor have I seen much of an attempt at defending it on this thread. (That's something I see as distinct from the parents being able to effectively exercise certain rights on the child's behalf, and in the child's interest - which would cover something like for instance restraining them if they're about to run in front of oncoming traffic.)

So, in short Alec, I need to do a little more thinking, and possibly adjust my position somewhat (might help if someone gave a constructive response to the above, but I won't hold my breath).

Cheers
MH


Post 82

Monday, January 17, 2005 - 1:49amSanction this postReply
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MH,

Please see my post regarding George's article, and you will see what my response is to all of this.  I see it from a legal standpoint of individual liberty. 

Jennifer


Post 83

Monday, January 17, 2005 - 3:16amSanction this postReply
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Just to make it official, this discussion has now moved to George's article's thread.

Post 84

Monday, January 17, 2005 - 6:32amSanction this postReply
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Adam, you said

Yoon tells me that when Ron Merrill's kids were small, she also thought she'd smack them if needed, but in fact had never needed to. I predict the same for you.

I certainly hope so. I take your prediction as a compliment, but I can't take all the credit. There have been quite a few times that I got fed up with my son, and I used my last resort "OK, I'll let Daddy deal with you!"  I am very fortunate that my husband is a very rational guy. His mere presence and uncompromising manner have always been very effective. He can subdue any little moron without ever resort to force. (Maybe it is because he has the same heritage as you? He is Jewish and from Russia). I know what I did is not the best way of parenting. But sometimes when one parent is physically and emotionally strained, calling for help may not be such an unreasonable thing to do. 


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Post 85

Monday, January 17, 2005 - 6:37amSanction this postReply
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Sorry, Hong.

Until you submit your photo, Jennifer’s wishes prevail.

Jon

Very well. Leave my photo out  and I am not fazed by your snarl, sneer, smirk, snort, or whatever. ;-)


Post 86

Monday, January 17, 2005 - 3:17pmSanction this postReply
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Mathew: "The position I'm trying to take comes from my thinking that children are individuals and ought therefore to have a right not to be assaulted."

Mathew, it seems that you and many others who should know better are determined to collapse the distinction between smacking and beating, and between the illegal and the immoral. Galt knows why.

There is a difference - a crucial difference.


Post 87

Monday, January 17, 2005 - 11:20pmSanction this postReply
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Hong said: But sometimes when one parent is physically and emotionally strained, calling for help may not be such an unreasonable thing to do.

That's why there are two parents.

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