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Post 0

Tuesday, December 28, 2004 - 6:42amSanction this postReply
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Derek, you know lack of belief in God is not neccesarily a sign of intelligence. I would agree with you in my case of course!!(ha ha)
What has replaced churchgoing?Certainly not a coherent philosophical outlook that is superior.People are more obsessed with whimsical superstitious and mystical notions than ever.
One factor is the very different character of christianity in Britain compared with the states. Many  mainstream churches in U.S. are derived from unsuccesful cults first developed over here and rejected and supressed(plymouth brethren,southern baptists,especially anything to do with dispenstionalist theology etc.). As an observer from here it seems that ideas that most christians in the U.K.would find eccentric in the extreme are seen as normal over there(such as rapture,creationism,prophecy etc). 
Seen from the perspective of europe the evangelical and fundamentalist movements prevalent in the U.S. are not really
theological but political organisms,part of the phenomenum of millenarianism. They have a coercive nature that is almost entirely absent from most churches here.(Rev Ian Paisley not withstanding).
I have an inkling that much church attendance in the U.S. is useful networking and I can sympathise with that as a small businessman.


Post 1

Tuesday, December 28, 2004 - 8:14amSanction this postReply
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Lol.  If I had to live there now, I wouldn't believe in God either!

Post 2

Tuesday, December 28, 2004 - 2:59pmSanction this postReply
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David wrote:

Derek, you know lack of belief in God is not neccesarily a sign of intelligence.
Oh, I agree! I was merely being tongue in cheek :) Yes, it's clear to me that Britain, in spite of its relative secularism, would be much less likely to embrace libertarianism than the more religious United States. What I'm concerned about, though, is the fact that a majority of Americans *apparently* still believe that morality and atheism are incompatible.    


Post 3

Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 12:42amSanction this postReply
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Derek - what *can* you be thinking?! Lack of a belief in God *is* a sign of intelligence. Belief in God is invariably a result of either stupidity or carelessness. The latter, of course, is infinitely more forgivable than the former.

Linz

Post 4

Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 3:02amSanction this postReply
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Linz wrote:

Derek - what *can* you be thinking?! Lack of a belief in God *is* a sign of intelligence.
In most cases, sure. But David's point was that lack of a belief in God isn't *automatically* a confirmation of intelligence. Hell, we only need to think of all those good, mullet-headed communists who didn't believe in God, but unthinkingly worshipped the *state* in his stead.


Post 5

Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 8:50pmSanction this postReply
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Derek - what *can* you be thinking?! Lack of a belief in God *is* a sign of intelligence. Belief in God is invariably a result of either stupidity or carelessness. The latter, of course, is infinitely more forgivable than the former.
It depends on what your definition of god is, and what your definition of intelligence is, too.  Polls of the Triple Nine Society (membership requirement is scoring in top 0.1% on timed, monitored IQ tests -- I guess that would be "intelligent") show god believers have a slight edge.  Among those who claim to be god believers, however, they will differ as to their characterization of "god" from a definition of a universal creative or ordering process to a Charlton Heston lookalike sitting on a throne on a cloud with a back drop of palm fronds.

I don't think belief in god is related to intelligence.  There are also some really stupid people who don't believe in god; as in the godless commies Derek mentioned.

I think that highly intelligent people believe in god because, being intelligent, they can't accept the notion that everything is a non-divine coincidence. They need to believe in god to keep a grip on their sanity.  Or, being intelligent, they don't believe in god because, they are reluctant to commit to anything their senses can't confirm.  (Personally, I don't think the two paths are incompatible.)

Stupid people believe in god because they are intellectually child-like and can not exist without a parental figure.  Or they believe in god because their stupidity has rendered them cynical.

Atheists are interesting in that they can not define themselves outside the context of a god they claim does not exist.

I think god is a universal creative process and, having free will, we have the option to participate, or to opt out.  Participation is Good.  Opting out is Evil.  If, as the Christian bible (which I interpret poetically) says, god created us "his" image,  we are destined to be creators ourselves.  I find my outlook to be consistent with objectivism in that the fact that I was created is an undeniable, provable fact.  Therefore, "the process of creation" exists.  If "the process of creation" exists, then if we can agree to call that process "god," we humans have a common vector -- that of creation and creativity. 

I believe that Jesus understood it that way, but spoke in poetic analogy, particularly using "father" and "creator" to mean the same thing, to try to get his message across.  In doing so, he over-personified the notion.  We are all sons of god in that we were created and we are all gods in that we have the capacity to be creators.   Unfortunately, I think Jesus' disciples were, in fact, not too bright and never really got it.  They were intellectually child-like as I mentioned above, and when he died, they "over deified" him in a search for that parental figure rather than stepping into his shoes...er...uh...sandals.



Post 6

Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 4:42amSanction this postReply
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Nice try, Stuart, but it doesn't wash. The empirical evidence strongly supports my thesis. For instance, in New Zealand there is a census every five years. Among the questions is one asking folk their religion & another one asking them their IQ. (In NZ all children are IQ-tested regularly in school.) In the last census 95% of respondents professing a religion had IQs in the imbecile range. The remaining 5% couldn't remember their IQs or their religion.

Linz

PS - It is said that one of the strongest indicators of the sub-normal intelligence associated with believers is that they don't realise when someone is pulling their tits ...





Post 7

Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 8:59amSanction this postReply
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The important point about the communists is that they effectively treat the state as a god.

Post 8

Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 8:11pmSanction this postReply
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The weirdest thing about the respondents is 44% believe, 35% don't, and so about 21% never thought about it. It is the latter figure that's really amazing, and most different from here. Can you image an American who would have no opinion if asked?
(Edited by Adam Reed on 12/30, 8:12pm)


Post 9

Friday, December 31, 2004 - 12:41amSanction this postReply
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Adam, someone coined the word "apatheist" which I think fits the bill for the 21% you refer to.

Post 10

Friday, December 31, 2004 - 12:41amSanction this postReply
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Adam, someone coined the word "apatheist" which I think fits the bill for the 21% you refer to.

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