About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Forward one pageLast Page


Post 20

Saturday, October 23, 2004 - 1:34pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
George,

Please look up "Neo-Liberalism." Google works.

Post 21

Saturday, October 23, 2004 - 1:46pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Adam,

Please look up the word "Fraudulent". Google works.

George


Post 22

Saturday, October 23, 2004 - 2:28pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Adam - Can you provide the names of several prominent neo-Liberals?


Post 23

Saturday, October 23, 2004 - 2:28pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Deleted - duplicate.

(Edited by Michelle Cohen on 10/23, 2:29pm)


Post 24

Saturday, October 23, 2004 - 4:54amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

A note in response to Adam Reed’s comments on Nathaniel Branden: His contributions to Objectivism are numerous enough and important enough that he deserves to be cited and read. Allegations of “cyber-stalking” or other such claims are irrelevant to honestly assessing his work during the long association with Rand and his work in psychology since the break. I highly recommend his books.


Post 25

Saturday, October 23, 2004 - 4:36pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Adam,

You might help clear up the loopy craziness of what you are saying by possibly giving some actual names of advisors who are Neo-Liberals.

I suppose the great party of the free-market did do extremely well in California, under the leadership of capitalist master Grey Davis. Too bad those damn Keynesians managed to hoodwink the public into shipping Davis and his market liberalization team out.

If it wasn't for the very libertarian Republican Congress of the 90s, Clinton wouldn't have been forced to ignore his party advisors. The results of his presidency would have been quite different.


Post 26

Saturday, October 23, 2004 - 6:16pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Michelle,

The most prominent neo-liberal intellectual in the US is Robert Heilbroner. The best known neo-liberal politician is President Kwasniewski of Poland. That should get you started - please let me know if you would like names in specific areas of economics, or in specific countries etc.

Post 27

Sunday, October 24, 2004 - 12:17amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jason,

I agree with you that Nathaniel Branden had made some significant contributions to Objectivism at one time, and as I wrote, I would like to see him credited for those contributions - only for the sake of truth, and not his account. Unfortunately, I have witnessed several extremely bizarre aggressive behaviors on NB's part over the years. The only thing new about the "Hellen" episode on Diana Hsieh's blog forum was that it was so public and witnessed by so many people. I first witnessed one of NB's bizarre behaviors in 1966, two years before the break. I have heard related eyewitness reports from several others, including two participants in SoloHQ. In spite of my own doctoral and post-doctoral training in psychology, I can't tell, when reading NB's books, where alleged psychological theory ends, and rationalizations start for his own personal problems. Besides, I consider Diana Hsieh a friend, and one does not mess with my friends if one wishes to keep my good will.

Sanction: 2, No Sanction: 0
Post 28

Sunday, October 24, 2004 - 5:22amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

Jason, you wrote, about Nathaniel: "I highly recommend his books."

As do I. If anyone on Solo has not read them, you are missing something valuable.

It is disgusting to me to see how many of his ideas, as presented in The Objectivist, The Objectivist Newsletter,and elsewhere, are used by ARI people without credit being given
to their source. This is truly shameful.

Barbara

Post 29

Sunday, October 24, 2004 - 5:28amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I found most of NB's writings on psychology valuable, but his memoir "Judgment Day" is horrific.

Post 30

Sunday, October 24, 2004 - 7:36amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Adam wrote:
I've seen no overt change in ARI's despicable memory-hole practices.  I, for one, will not be "coming back into the fold" until Robert Efron and Ron Merrill are credited again for their contributions to Objectivism, which were considerable.
I second Adam on Ron Merrill's book The Ideas of Ayn Rand. I recommend it as the best overview of Objectivism.


Post 31

Sunday, October 24, 2004 - 9:02amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Michelle, Nathaniel revised "Judgment Day", acknowledging that it was written in anger. It is now called "My Years with Ayn Rand", and is a better book.

Barbara

Post 32

Sunday, October 24, 2004 - 10:35amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Adam wrote:
The only thing new about the "Hellen" episode on Diana Hsieh's blog forum was that it was so public and witnessed by so many people.
I witnessed it, Adam, and I thought it was brilliant!  He/she set up the "attack dogs" from ARI, who post there all the time, and they bit.  Why don't you explain what happened instead of calling it "despicable behavior" on the part of N. Branden?

Thanks,
Glenn.


Post 33

Sunday, October 24, 2004 - 11:01amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I would add Edith Efron to the list of honorable exiles.  When I was building my library (sugh), I remember running across the following book filed away in dusty shelves amidst all of the diet fads:  The Apocalyptics: Cancer and the Big Lie: How Environmental Politics Controls What We Know about Cancer.  Wonderful book, almost an Objectivist treatise on the politics and even epistemology of science than a narrow treatment of the cancer wars.

I highly recommend Efron's book, and I say this despite some disagreements with her episteme.  I, myself, don't think the fault lines are so much between woosy [hmmm... I would like to check the etymology of that term] pseudoscience fostered by the welfare state and an opposed rational citadel of besieged scientists, so much as I think there are four sides in this war, (1) Humanist Enlightenment science grounded ultimately in an individual's questioning perception of nature, (2) Positivist institutional science, statistical and reductionist in methods, (3) Countercultural alternative or 'holistic' medicine, and (4) Christian assimilation of health to morality.  I believe Objectivists do not significantly distinguish (2) from (1) while allying most of the faults of (2) to (3), while wholly neglecting the influence on (4) on the actual practice and premises of medicine as a life-or-death social authority.  Personally, I think that a flourishing, dialectical version of (1) has much in common with a rationally scrutinized version of (3), and that, a la Thomas Szasz, (2) is often a functional excuse to carry on the social domination of (4).  In the early nineteenth century, during the same period when the lines between throne-and-altar Conservatism and individualist liberalism were clear, it was also understood that self-taught folk medicine and the light of independent science were natural allies against theocratic establishments equally promoting dogmatism and the rule of experts.  I think a lot has sadly gone wrong since on all sides.

As for Ron Merrill... Ideas of Ayn Rand said some interesting things about Nietzsche I thought were overdue, but others among his claims were absolutely barbaric, such as his hope that no one in the future would read Plato or all of those evil philosophers any more than we read the discarded failed theories of science in alchemy or astrology.  Well, personally I think a great problem with the modern sciences is that they don't go back, check their premises, question their assumptions, and debate or learn from rival theories... the results are atrocities such as genetic determinism and sociobiology, which Merrill tends to predictably swallow.  I think we could do well to read more alchemy and astrology (the former, in particular).

     One is clever and knows everything that has ever happened, and there is no end of derision.

The same in philosophy?  We already have modern analytic philosophy claiming (in Allan Bloom's phrase), that it knows what was wrong with the whole tradition and we don't need to study it.  Yet I would fight to the death to preserve the works of Plato, or Aristotle, or Kant, or Hegel, or Nietzsche, over the entire corpus in its vast libraries of analytic philosophy.  And I hate to say it, but the proposal to force a war between Ayn Rand (and a couple of other As, and maybe one N.) and the wisdom and insights of the entire remainder of the history of philosophy, is a battle that Rand will, must, and should, lose.  And it is an unnecessary battle.  This position is not exclusive with the highest respect for Rand as one of many geniuses.

Merrill also exhibits a general conservatism which he blithely assumes to follow from reason without making the effort of using reason to validate it.  He claims at one point that libertarianism is a silly crusade because all libertarians are just interested in social issues (?) and that, further, the reign of Babylon has come to pass and that sex and drugs are de facto unpersecuted (??- in 1990?).  Nowhere does Merrill precisely define what is irrational about these things, and nowhere does he back up his picture of society or libertarianism; he seems to simply assume that any friendly reader will see these things as obvious.  What he is really doing is falling back on a conservative moral intuition, taking a certain near-zero visibility of certain 'anti-social' behaviours as 'natural' and treating any positive deviation from this 'natural' level as water coming over the dikes.  This, even if in actual fact, these cultural phenomena are still rigorously persecuted but somewhat less than at a former time, whereas mainstream ones are not.  Yet this is not reason, this is sloppy thinking; the same illogic that leads people to think that feminists must be taking over society if they upset a situation of exclusive male privilege.  And given that Merrill was obviously well educated in many ways, I find it shockingly bad history... he should know that sensuality, like commerce, was characteristic of those cultures most affirmative of a rational, worldly ethic; Miletus, Athens, Alexandria, Rome, Florence, Venice, and Paris are just a few of the names that should scream in an historian's memory.  Perhaps Merrill read Gibbon too often and too blindly.  Or Spengler.

Then there is Merrill's thesis that a free society will be one of rigid social intolerance.  My first question, if not the most basic, is whose social intolerance?  Merrill seems to presume that human reason easily leads to predictable and similar conclusions, and that we may safely treat those whose conclusions differ from the common sense of humanity as madmen to be shut out of any benefits of society.  This is simply breathtaking, especially as an Ayn Rand would, in fact, be the first victim of such a policy.  Great individuals may be very alike in their essential passions, but they are not at all alike in their conclusions, and the kind of social intolerance Merrill advocates, which social conservatives with no interest in reason are happy to hear about, will serve to shut out precisely those people who most think for themselves.  I leave aside the fact that social intolerance itself produces a shrivelled, ugly state of soul; this observation does not have to be argued on Sense Of Life Objectivists. 

Throughout Ideas, Merrill seems so absolutely certain that he knows the obvious truth that he does not need to actually argue it.  This is Platonism, specifically the product of a view of science as primarily the construction of an eternal pyramid of iron we will all look up to in its completed answers, rather than essentially the study of nature as a mode of life based in the independence of intellectual pleasure.  He models philosophy similarly, looking at philosophy as a means to trap answers in resin, and ends up choking off the passions for both experiments in living and experiments in thought in fideity to the truth he has seen.

But he doesn't have The Truth, and in his broadsides against the skeptic-subjectivist-relativist axis of philosophy manages to near-completely absorb the models and methods of the intrinsicist, classical 'objectivist' quadrant.  True, he defends his convictions by reason rather than authority, but his top down, imperial method of looking at truth is solidly modelled on the establishment of catholic (the term means 'universal') canons.  He looks forward to the day when all people, not necessarily well schooled in the alternatives or curious about them, have studied just enough philosophy to look up to the mountaintop where, in the 20th century, the Eternal Truth was finally discovered for all time and made manifest, and there, history will stop.  The inventions may keep pouring out of the laboratories, the GNP may continue to increase, the quanta of knowledge may become more fine and detailed, but philosophy can close up shop, save for occasional decorations to the axiomatic pyramid.

"We have met the enemy, and it is us."

It is precisely because a Ron Merrill can indulge in such visions while treating Plato as superstition that we need a firm grounding in books which show us the essential human alternatives.  Plato may in some sense remain as enemy, but without a sympathetic understanding of the best of our enemies, we will not recognize ourselves.

     'What is love? What is creation? What is longing? What is a
star?'- so asks the last man, and he blinks.
     The Earth has become small, and on it hops the last
man, who makes everything small. His species is as ineradicable as the flea-beetle; the last man lives longest.

    'We have discovered happiness'- say the last men, and they blink.

Nietzsche, Thus Spoke Zarathustra

my regards,

Jeanine Ring 
stand forth!


Post 34

Sunday, October 24, 2004 - 11:40amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Msr. Reed-

Besides, I consider Diana Hsieh a friend, and one does not mess with my friends if one wishes to keep my good will.
Oh dear, we aren't taking the Hellenic Pagan position over that of the classical philosophers, are we? 

<smooch>

Pyrophora Cypriana 



Sanction: 2, No Sanction: 0
Post 35

Sunday, October 24, 2004 - 3:53pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Barbara,

I am aware of the revised edition, but it does not erase the fact that Branden was capable of writing and publishing Judgment Day. A book is a long-term project, involving work with an editor, and cannot be dismissed as something done in the heat of the moment. I think you also had a reason to be angry, yet your book is written with emotional control.


 


Post 36

Monday, October 25, 2004 - 8:09pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jeanine, you wrote: "I would add Edith Efron to the list of honorable exiles."

I most emphatically agree. Edith was outstandingly brilliant, and her "The Apocalyptics" is a book of major importance, which should be read not only by those interested in science but by anyone with an interest in ideas and how they spread.

Barbara



Post 37

Monday, October 25, 2004 - 8:12pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

Jeanine: "Yet I would fight to the death to preserve the works of Plato, or Aristotle, or Kant, or Hegel, or Nietzsche, over the entire corpus in its vast libraries of analytic philosophy."

Where do I enlist?

Barbara

Post 38

Monday, October 25, 2004 - 10:39pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

Adam: "The Democratic economic team are the same people who achieved free trade and balanced budgets for Clinton: they are hard-core free market neo-Liberals.. . . Why doesn't the Kerry campaign mention these neo-Liberals and their free-market plan?. . . .Eventually the people will learn that Neo-Liberalism leads to prosperity, and it will be possible for people like Clinton and Kerry to do their good work honestly."

This has to be the strangest conspiracy theory I've ever heard.

So Kerry is only PRETENDING to be a Leftist liberal who wants socialized medicine, higher taxes, vastly increased government spending, non-privatization of Social Security and Medicare, UN approval before America may defend herself, and so on. Hooray!

Why didn't you tell us this before, so we could all vote for Kerry?

Barbara


Post 39

Monday, October 25, 2004 - 11:35pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Well, personally I think a great problem with the modern sciences is that they don't go back, check their premises, question their assumptions, and debate or learn from rival theories... the results are atrocities such as genetic determinism and sociobiology, which Merrill tends to predictably swallow.  I think we could do well to read more alchemy and astrology (the former, in particular).

Jeanine,

I haven't read Merrill's book, but I'm fairly well acquainted with "sociobiology" and "genetic determinism", having had my revulsion to and abhorrence of those terms cured by a close reading of Steven Pinker's The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature.  I started studying materialist/physicalist views of human nature more closely after reading Pinker's work in the year 2002, and started reading works on neuroscience.

After the discovery of DNA in 1953 and the empirical observation and confirmation of genetic mutation and the technique of gene splicing etc., the theory of evolution and physicalist or biochemical views of human nature are on much firmer ground than they ever have been. They are the mainstream views of cutting edge researchers.

Having once shared you ideological opposition to what I understood genetic determinism and sociobiology to mean (and there is no guarantee that you won't be disgusted by what they actually mean), I can understand your concern.  But I think that if Merill is defending sociobiology and genetic determinism, he is simply defending the current scientific paradigm, a paradigm that is on far firmer theoretic footing than anything known to date about human nature derived mostly from philosophy.


Post to this threadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.