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Monday, July 23, 2012 - 6:50pmSanction this postReply
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The title of this thread is the actual title of a news blog by Dylan Matthews at the Washington Post. Here is an excerpt:
What’s more, it doesn’t particularly matter to utilitarians whether people give the money away voluntarily or if the government takes it from them, as utilitarians do not believe that people have inalienable rights, such as a right against excessive taxation. NYU’s Sam Scheffler, whose view combined elements of “high liberalism” and consequentialism, has expressed concern that the unpopularity of desert among liberals in political philosophy disconnects the discipline from real political debates about welfare, crime and other issues, where responsibility and desert matter a great deal.

Funnily enough, the main proponents of a robust idea of desert within academic political philosophy are luck egalitarians, who are arguably the most left-wing contingent in real world political terms, seeing as they support eliminating inequalities in wealth due to differences in intelligence. This school, which includes the late G.A. Cohen of Oxford and UC San Diego’s Richard Arneson, argues that it is morally imperative to minimize the degree to which people’s life outcomes are attributable to luck. And, if determinism is true, more or less everything is a matter of luck. This is why luck egalitarians generally reject determinism in favor of “metaphysical libertarianism” – the confusing term for the position that free will and determinism cannot be reconciled, and free will exists. In his classic essay, “On the Currency of Egalitarian Justice,” Cohen wrote (pdf), ”We may indeed be up to our necks in the free will problem, but that is just tough luck. It is not a reason for not following the argument where it goes.”

Many right-leaning political philosophers reject the idea of desert as well. The libertarian philosopher Robert Nozick supported limited government because he thought government coercion was almost always an impingement upon individual rights, not because he thought rich people deserved what they got. At most, he believed that in virtue of their rights, people deserved not to be denied what they earned through “acts of capitalism between consenting adults.” He in fact argued aggressively against those who would have the government distribute goods to people based upon what it judged they deserved.
Note the question-begging regarding a narrow, one-sided interpretation of the concept: "deserve". It is used in a murky, social justice, egalitarian way -- as if that is the only way to interpret the word "deserve." An alternative interpretation is that we deserve our individual rights, along with the consequences (e.g., profits) of acting on them. Dylan never comes around to that interpretation, however. Like a good pragmatist hoodwinked by social metaphysics, he passively adopts the popular -- either en vogue or the 'party line' -- interpretation as if it is the gospel truth of the matter.

You can't say that Nozick didn't believe in "just deserts" without selectively omitting the possibility that what we deserve is our individual rights and the consequences of their exercise.

Ed

(Edited by Ed Thompson on 7/23, 6:56pm)


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Tuesday, July 24, 2012 - 1:16pmSanction this postReply
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what exactly is luck-egalitarianism

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Tuesday, July 24, 2012 - 2:10pmSanction this postReply
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luck_egalitarianism

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Tuesday, July 24, 2012 - 5:47pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

Here's an illustrative quote from Ronald Dworkin which, in theory, supports luck egalitarianism:
We need rights, as a distinct element in political theory, only when some decision that injures some people nevertheless finds prima facie support in the claim that it will make the community as a whole better off on some plausible account of where the community's general welfare lies.
--A Matter of Principle, p. 371

Think about the twisted logic of that. It assumes utilitarianism as being the predominant morality, and then, based on that unjustified assumption, it reasons toward the need of individual rights. Why do we need rights? ...

Because we are going to be attempting to be moral -- which means that we are going to sacrifice people for the sake of some Greater Good. Under Dworkin's conception, you can have "group rights" which are granted to certain groups because of certain statistical inequities that they experience 'through no fault of their own.'

Ed


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Tuesday, July 24, 2012 - 6:03pmSanction this postReply
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Michael,

Here is an illustrative quote from John Rawls which, in theory, supports luck egalitarianism:
First Principle

Each person is to have an equal right to the most extensive total system of liberties compatible with a similar system of liberty for all.


Second Principle

Social and economic inequalities are to be arranged so that they are both:

(a) to the greatest benefit to the least advantaged, consistent with the just savings principle and,
(b) attached to offices and positions open to all under conditions of fair equality of opportunity.
--A Theory of Justice, p. 302

Looking at this second "principle of justice" you can see that, in Rawls' mind, justice occurs when there is equal outcome (even with unequal inputs). But this kind of "social justice" is antithetical to true justice, which occurs when you treat people accordingly and where outcomes vary based on a combination of fortune and earned merit.

Ed

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Tuesday, July 24, 2012 - 7:11pmSanction this postReply
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Rawls world = Vonnegut's Harrison Bergeron.

As in Michelle Jenneke wearing lead weights for her race...or starting the race 50 yards behind the others.

As in, no races at all; f what need competition if the outcome is known in advance(a 330 million person tie, with a time equal to the slowest among us.)

This will make the slowest among us feel empowered.

We don't care how it makes Michelle Jenneke feel. After all, she is gifted.

Who even shows up for their participation ribbons?

Who even throws an Olympics?



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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - 4:47pmSanction this postReply
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Fred,
Rawls world = Vonnegut's Harrison Bergeron.
Right. Ballerinas with lead weights preventing them from beautiful jumps. Tall people getting surgical amputations of part of their limbs in order to shorten them. Smart people given narcotics or toxic levels of manganese -- in order to make them as dumb as we are.

Hey, wait a minute. That last sentence didn't come out quite right. Well, you know what I mean. And I know that you know. And now you know that I know that you know. Heck, you probably already knew that I know that you know. Anyway, it is almost as if we are of one mind.

:-)

Ed


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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - 5:00pmSanction this postReply
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Ed:

Anyway, it is almost as if we are of one mind.

1] A line drawn between where I am in Eastern Pa and where you are in TX bisects in Bartlett, Tennessee

2] Fred Thompson was a former US Senator from Tennessee.

3] Fred Thompson - Fr = Ed Thompson.


Q.E.D.


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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - 6:06pmSanction this postReply
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Just 3 degrees of separation?!


Wow. Holy Tennessee senators, that was some awful good association on your part, Fred! Heck, I'd hate to be your "shrink" (giving you a Rorschach test):


----------------
Psychiatrist:
Fred, tell me, what is it that you see -- or what comes to your mind -- when you look at this particular ink blot?


Fred:
How much time do you have, doc?


Psyhiatrist:
Can you give me the short version?


Fred:
Are you familiar with how oxidative phosphorylation is linked to the tri-carboxylic acid cycle in the aerobic metabolism of eukaryotic cells?


Psychiatrist:
Not really, but what is your short answer, anyway?


Fred:
Well, I thought you would have guessed by now. I mean, it's so obvious.


Psychiatrist [getting nervous now]:
And ... what is it?


Fred:
Oh. Uh, it's nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide.


Psychiatrist:
Mmmmmmkaaayyy ... how about we move on to the next ink blot?
----------------


:-)

Ed


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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - 6:25pmSanction this postReply
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Psychiatrist:
Fred, tell me, what is it that you see -- or what comes to your mind -- when you look at this particular ink blot?

Fred:
Actually it's blots, plural.

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Wednesday, July 25, 2012 - 8:00pmSanction this postReply
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Good one, Steve.

After all, everyone talks about it as if it is "the blot" when, in reality, it is "the blots." Some relevant examples:

--Top economists were called-in to analyze recent changes in the blot.
--Worry has set in on the democrat campaign trail because of the sluggish blot.
--The Dow Jones Industrial took a dive today due to the recent tanking of the European blot.

:-)

Ed


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Thursday, July 26, 2012 - 7:21amSanction this postReply
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I am so BUSTEDs.

regards(never just regard),
Fred

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Friday, July 27, 2012 - 6:45amSanction this postReply
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if dumbed down enough, we WOULD be all of one mind - mindless........;-)

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Saturday, July 28, 2012 - 9:29amSanction this postReply
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I could have sworn that Starship built this city on rock and roll?



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Saturday, July 28, 2012 - 9:31amSanction this postReply
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We built this city, we built this city on rock and roll
Built this city, we built this city on rock and roll

Say you don't know me or recognize my face
Say you don't care who goes to that kind of place
Knee deep in the hoopla sinking in your fight
Too many runaways eating up the night

Marconi plays the mamba, listen to the radio, don't you remember
We built this city, we built this city on rock and roll

Chorus:
We built this city, we built this city on rock and roll
Built this city, we built this city on rock and roll

Someone always playing corporation games
Who cares they're always changing corporation names
We just want to dance here someone stole the stage
They call us irresponsible write us off the page

Marconi plays the mamba, listen to the radio, don't you remember
We built this city, we built this city on rock and roll

We built this city, we built this city on rock and roll
Built this city, we built this city on rock and roll

It's just another Sunday, in a tired old street
Police have got the choke hold, oh then we just lost the beat

Who counts the money underneath the bar
Who rides the wrecking ball in to our rock guitars
Don't tell us you need us, 'cos we're the ship of fools
Looking for America, coming through your schools

(I'm looking out over that Golden Gate bridge
Out on another gorgeous sunny Saturday, not seein' that bumper to bumper traffic)

Don't you remember ('member)('member)

(It's your favorite radio station, in your favorite radio city
The city by the bay, the city that rocks, the city that never sleeps)

Marconi plays the mamba, listen to the radio, don't you remember
We built this city, we built this city on rock and roll

We built this city, we built this city on rock and roll
Built this city, we built this city on rock and roll
Built this city, we built this city on rock and roll
Built this city, we built this city on rock and roll

(We built, we built this city) built this city (We built, we built this city)

(Repeats out)

Songwriters: PAGE, MARTIN GEORGE / TAUPIN, BERNIE / LAMBERT, DENNIS / WOLF, PETER F.

We Built This City lyrics © Universal Music Publishing Group

Ooops: Sorry. Clearly I didn't write the lyrics to this Starship classic.



(Edited by Fred Bartlett on 7/28, 9:58am)


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Saturday, July 28, 2012 - 9:34amSanction this postReply
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Lyrics | Starship lyrics - We Built This City lyrics

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Saturday, July 28, 2012 - 9:38amSanction this postReply
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Damn, I hope this isn't a hoax...(but great for her if she really did say it!)

And Grace Slick fires back. (Ironic, given that she was initially a supporter of his, even did his portrait. Anyway, she fired back:

Mr. Obama, you really stepped in it this time.

You might not know it, but us Americans are proud of our unique culture. We value freedom, and the daily bustle. Every day, there are millions of 'selfish' people with somewhere to go and something to do. You would know this if you were really an American. It's too bad you never learned that.

While you were eating dog meat and cloistered away in your leftist schools learning to hate America, Americans were busy building, and we really don't need you telling us 'We didn't build THAT'.

A lot of voters were Knee Deep In The Obama Hoopla in 2008, but you keep insulting us with your snide, anti-American insinuations. You're even losing liberals. There are lots of entrepreneurial, proud Democrats who also hate to be denigrated.

Government has it's place, but government isn't everything.

In 1985, my band Starship had a major pop hit with 'We Built This City'. It has become a staple on oldies pop radio, and it was also named 'the WORST pop song of all time'.

The song has it's detractors (me included), but I would rather be forced to listen to a continuous loop of this song, played non-stop than listen to you badmouth my country.

If you dislike private enterprise so much, then go back to Kenya or Indonesia or go the third-world dictatorship of your choice.

Grace Slick


(Edited by Joe Maurone on 7/28, 9:42am)

(Edited by Joe Maurone on 7/28, 9:58am)

(Edited by Joe Maurone on 7/28, 12:53pm)


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Saturday, July 28, 2012 - 9:40amSanction this postReply
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Maybe.

Or maybe our father's built this city, and enabled Rock and Roll.

I guess we're about to find out. Because we still got plenty of Rock and Roll.

We also still got plenty of federal government; $3800B/yr worth, vs. JFKs fully adjusted for inflation and population $1500B/yr worth.

Methinks we be over 'stimulated.'

(Joe-- posts crossed, wasn't a response to yours. I loved yours!)




(Edited by Fred Bartlett on 7/28, 9:45am)


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Saturday, July 28, 2012 - 9:50amSanction this postReply
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Fred, that post, you didn't write that...;)

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Saturday, July 28, 2012 - 9:55amSanction this postReply
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WORST of all time? No way. That has to be this. I can't even listen to it once. I couldn't even back then.



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