About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadBack one pagePage 0Page 1


Sanction: 16, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 16, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 16, No Sanction: 0
Post 20

Friday, April 29, 2011 - 6:23amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
yes... if bible-quoting is given, best to use "when I was a child, I thought as a child, acted as a child spoke as a child - but when I became an adult, I put away childish things" - and religion is a childish thing... why? because a child craves dependency, seeks an 'otherness', is not given much to thinking, and presumes one's gain is another's loss - whereas an adult is independent, accepts self- responsibility, recognises rationality as a desired necessity and that the world is a sum-plus...

Post 21

Friday, April 29, 2011 - 9:01amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Regarding #19:

For a Christian such as Richard Jordan, there is a higher proper authority than one’s own mind: God, by his word in scripture and by his spirit in you. Acceptance of the Christian God’s deliverances is profoundly at odds with pride in the Randian sense. To place no authority higher than one’s own rational judgment (Rand’s core of pride) is flatly opposed to the First Commandment as it is construed in the main Christian denominations.
    So, too, whoever trusts and boasts that he possesses great skill, prudence, power, favor, friendship, and honor has also a god, but not this true and only God. This appears again when you notice how presumptuous, secure, and proud people are because of such possessions, and how despondent when they no longer exist or are withdrawn. Therefore I repeat that the chief explanation of this point is that to have a god is to have something in which the heart entirely trusts. – Luther

Pride – RC / Faith – RC / Faith – Philosophy

“Faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen.” Hebrews 11:1

“Faith is a living, bold trust in God’s grace.” – Luther

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Faith designates blind acceptance of a certain ideational content, acceptance induced by feeling in the absence of evidence or proof.”
Peikoff – Ominous Parallels
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Jordan would claim we have plenty of evidence for the existence and grace of God.
    Romans 1:17–25
    The just shall live by faith. / For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness. / Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. / For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: / Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. / Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools. / And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. / Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: / Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature [man] more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.


********************
Where Jordan wrote “with the need for a lack of compassion, charity, and humility,” he could be on to some truths about Rand’s philosophy. In Rand’s view, one’s immediate impulses to compassion and charity need to be checked and first cleared for rationality. Still, as you say, Ed, Jordan’s statement goes further and therein fails to accurately represent Rand’s philosophy. As for humility, I would expect Jordan to mean the humility one should have before one’s Creator and Lord over life and death. Rand rightly exposes that need as a false one, which needs to be washed away.

Where Jordan wrote that Rand was “demonstrably anti-religion,” within the context of his entire review, I did not take up any insinuation that Rand was not a supporter of the freedom of religion. Rand’s view is anti-faith, anti-humility, and anti-service; these are the salient modes of her view being anti-religious, as rightly set forth by Jordan.


(Edited by Stephen Boydstun on 4/29, 9:09am)


Post 22

Friday, April 29, 2011 - 7:01pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Stephen,

Thanks for the detailed response. I appreciate the cool snippets on faith. I found it interesting that faith is characterized in the Old Testament as: "the evidence of things not seen." That sounds like a play on words. It appears that the mere (unseen) feeling of faith is the very evidence supporting/justifying the process of faith. Another way to say this is:

If you feel it, you got it, and that's good (for no other reason than that you feel it in the first place).

:-)

You wrote:

Rand’s view is anti-faith, anti-humility, and anti-service ...
But I think that the last two of these issues command a higher level of nuance.

For instance, for Rand, pride is something you earn. What is it then -- if not "humility" -- that you have, or ought to have, before you've earned the requisite pride? Do you have a suggested word other than humility? Another way to say this is that it's possible to view pride and humility on a continuum. This is something Aristotle was fond of doing with virtues -- along with their excesses and deficiencies: the vices.

When looking at pride like that, on a continuum, it's possible to interpret Rand's view as not being necessarily anti-humility. She wouldn't personally like humility, because it means you haven't yet earned your pride, but she may not be against it 100% -- for the same reason she wouldn't be against crawling as a method of travel (for infants or, say, for certain injured people) even though adults are supposed to move around in a much more sophisticated manner. In this respect, everyone on earth would begin life in some measure of humility -- and that would be natural and normal -- and folks would progressively advance (shed the natural and normal humility) toward earned pride.

The early humility would be like the lower rungs of the ladder on the ascent to greatness, and, as a proverb says, we should not despise those lower rungs.

:-)

Also, I think the notion of service/anti-service ought to be parsed out more finely.

It can be easily -- but mistakenly -- interpreted as full-on Nietzschean egotism ("master-slave" morality). In a sense, Rand wasn't entirely against serving others, what she was specifically against is the notion that service is a foundational concept of morality. Phil Donahue, in his interview of her, asked Rand if she was against the notion of helping others. She said no. She said what she is against is the notion that service is morally cardinal or foundational. She said something like this:

If you want to help others, fine, go and do it -- but just don't regard it as a moral virtue. [paraphrase]

In the 1980 interview with Donahue, Rand admitted that she had entertained the notion of killing herself to help her deceased husband (by being a witness for him to St. Peter at the Pearly Gates). She said she'd do this because she loved him so much. She said if she believed in God, she would have done it. Wow! Talk about serving your fellow man (deliberately ending your own life in order to help him out in another)!

These nuances might end up being glossed over with short statements about Rand being anti-humility or anti-service.

Ed


Post 23

Saturday, April 30, 2011 - 3:52amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Who among the seen speaks for the unseen?

Who among us speaks for God?

Who among us speaks for "S"ociety?

Who among us speaks for the collective unconscious?

Who among us speaks for the consciousness of all consciousness?

Who among us speaks for those in a perfect state of unbias, fully unaware of future outcomes, primed to make our 'initial position?'

Who among us speaks for the volcano god that lives underneath the volcano?

Who among us speaks for the imagines absolute authority forever safely beyond reach?

Who among us makes rules for such entities, and tells us what they want?

It's clear who: anyone with a political urge to foist a leg lifting maneuver over their fellow 'seen.'



Post 24

Saturday, April 30, 2011 - 4:08pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
This is the most honest and respectful assessment of Rand’s philosophy by a Christian

I had this mental image of a man in a baseball stadium, holding a sign reading "John Galt 3:16" ;)

(sorry, I couldn't resist).

On the other hand, there's this : John Galt is the Antichrist.


Post 25

Saturday, April 30, 2011 - 9:12pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Thanks for the link, Opinador.

It bore fruit.

Ed


Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 10, No Sanction: 0
Post 26

Sunday, October 30, 2011 - 8:17amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit

From an Eastern Orthodox Christian, here is another review, really a comment on Rand’s fiction and philosophy, occasioned by the Part 1 film. The reviewer had not seen the film, but wanted to discourage readers from seeing it. He is opposed to egoism and in favor of mysticism braced by philosophy. I should say his ad hominem ugliness (like that of Buckley and Gerson*) is not something in which any of my religious friends would engage.


(Edited by Stephen Boydstun on 10/30, 8:24am)


Post 27

Monday, October 31, 2011 - 7:10pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Near the end of the documentary Ayn Rand: In Her Own Words

http://www.amazon.com/Ayn-Rand-Her-Own-Words/dp/B004KDYQY4

(great rental)

there is a great question -- and her own response -- about her frequent use of the phrase 'Thank God' and 'God Bless You' and such. You can't take from her cheerful response that she was vehemently antagonistic towards those for whom faith was important. She disagreed, and she explained her reasons.

I disagree as well, and understand my reasons. And yet, I have no hostility at all towards those with faith, nor do I bristle when merely exposed to the existence of others outwards signs of faith. Truthfully, I drive by churches in America every day with no more concern than I would drive by Disneyland or The Home Depot, and not only that, celebrate the freedom that openly tolerates all churches with such transparent ease, even as I don't belong. Even the active proselytizing of the Jehovah's Witnesses who _politely_ come to your front door and _ask_ to simply speak to you is more than tolerable, and in fact, an example of freedom in this country that we should _celebrate_, even as we don't share in their beliefs. I love the fact that America spans from the Amish to Ozzie Osbourne without ever once trying to define a spectrum on which to balkanize the nation. If only the same was true for economic freedom as it was for religious freedom; I have a dream.

But I have sensed in some believers that non-belief itself is seen as hostility towards faith. As if what was required of non-believers was some kind of explicit validation for the parking of others souls. Requiring that as proof of non-hostlity is beyond the polite rules of peer based freedom under free association. Non-belief is not a sign of hostility; it is non-belief. Living our lives through the imagined eyes of others and forcing their association with our religious beliefs or non-beliefs is part of the tribal sickness, truly 'the social disease.' It is exactly the often raging source of widespread conflict and war, and as an idea running loose in the tribe, should be questioned wherever it rises from the muck of our tribal past. I don't think this reaction comes from any rational source; I think it is atavistic tribal wiring, the 'us vs. them' radar. The world is divided into an endless war of 'us vs. them' and faith is one of the tribal litmus tests when "race,gender,class" or simple headress isn't handy.


Post 28

Monday, October 31, 2011 - 7:34pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Stephen:

From your link:

First Things is published by The Institute on Religion and Public Life, an interreligious, nonpartisan research and education institute whose purpose is to advance a religiously informed public philosophy for the ordering of society.

No less.

I wonder who gets a seat in the pews in front, once society is properly ordered?

I can see why this guy would be hostile to an advocate of free association; that kind of puts the 'ordering of society' folks out of business; they would rightly see such movements as an existential threat to their 'ordering of society' alternative.

First Things: sounds like it would be more at home in German.

Erste Sachen wird vom Institut für Religion and Public Life, einem interreligiösen, überparteiliche Forschung und Lehre Institut, dessen Zweck es ist, eine religiös fundierten öffentlichen Philosophie für die Ordnung der Gesellschaft vorab veröffentlicht.

Yes, we've for sure seen this before. Goebbels would have been proud of that movie review.











Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 6, No Sanction: 0
Post 29

Sunday, November 20, 2011 - 5:06amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Finally watched it on BluRay last night, and I don't have much to add.

Maybe it's because I recently re-read the book and still have every square centimeter of that lush canvas etched in my mind ... but for the first of three parts it seemed to be in a hurry to hit all the key moments and make all the key points of the book.  In AS, the book, the Powerpoint presentation of Rand's philosophy is submerged within and implicitly carried by the story. In the movie it seemed (to me) the point paper explicitly bled through from time to time.

Other than that, I thoroughly enjoyed it.  I welled up a bit when they made it across the bridge, even though *I* knew they would.  Maybe this is because of the mood this country has me in of late and my need for an injection of unbridled heroism. 

Very much looking forward to parts 2 and 3.

Ken

(Edited by Ken Bashford on 11/20, 5:59am)


Post to this threadBack one pagePage 0Page 1


User ID Password or create a free account.