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Sunday, June 21, 2009 - 5:01pmSanction this postReply
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I was recently debating with a leftist friend on Facebook.  Our argument, which concerned healthcare and public education, began to be about taxation as well.  I suggested to him that, as a taxpayer, I am forced to pay for government programs I do not believe in.

He rebutted that point by saying that the government is in no way guilty of initiating force by taxing its citizens.  He argued that because we are free to leave the country, there is no force involved.  Force involves the elimination of choice; since we are free to flee the country if we choose, by his logic there is no initiation of force being applied in taxation.

I need some help in countering his argument.  Thoughts? 


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Sunday, June 21, 2009 - 5:12pmSanction this postReply
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You have the choice to let the mugger take your wallet. It only becomes force if you choose not to hand it over voluntarily.

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Sunday, June 21, 2009 - 5:14pmSanction this postReply
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Good one, Ted.

Eric,

If I'm not mistaken, despots use the same argument as your opponent, and when the brain drain becomes too much, walls and barbed wire go up.

(Edited by Teresa Summerlee Isanhart on 6/21, 5:18pm)

(Edited by Teresa Summerlee Isanhart on 6/21, 5:18pm)


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Post 3

Sunday, June 21, 2009 - 8:00pmSanction this postReply
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You can't separate taxation from force, and even were you to choose to leave the country, without question, you'd be forced to leave some of your money behind.

The question is if not taxation, then what else to fund government. Perhaps if we were populated only be bright, intelligent people motivated by rational self-interest, who recognized that we need to pay something to government to provide legal protections, a voluntary system would be quite sufficient. However, not all of our fellow countrymen will behave rationally. Too many would be thrilled to get a free ride, and pay nothing.

What then? A legal service fee? Didn't pay the government sales fee? Well then don't expect the government to cover your back when your CD player dies two days after purchase - caveat emptor.

Individual rights may be natural unalienable rights, independent of anyone's claim. However, having protection of those rights is arguably a privilege, that comes with a price tag. And to enjoy that privilege, one has to be a member of the right country club - e.g. the USA.

jt

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Sunday, June 21, 2009 - 9:11pmSanction this postReply
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You're free to leave if you don't want to pay. No one is forcing you to stay. Taxes are the basic price of spending time in the country. ~insert pun having to do with "free" here~ ;) The counter to this argument usually attacks the government's *authority* to tax in the first place, which tends to send one down the anarchist rabbit hole. Stick with the blue pill. Sometimes the red is just poison.

Jordan

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Sunday, June 21, 2009 - 9:31pmSanction this postReply
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Jay,

I'd never use the word 'privilege' which is always about a gift, or being a member of the elite, an arbitrary favor conferred upon one - about something that asks for gratitude, rather than pride of accomplishemt, about getting something from someone else, instead of being a part of the creation and operation of the system.

I'd say it is an 'environment' - we create an environment that is based upon individual rights. Governments are never going to prevent most individual rights violations (stopping a thief in the act), the create the environment that minimized the violations and provides a way to deal with violations.

Laws to define the rights in specific contexts, courts to work out differences, police to gather up violators, etc. Just like a beaver creating his environment with the dam that creates the pond that creates safety and a place for his lodge and food storage.

What is the optimal environment for man? In the economic/political realm it is defined by Capitalism/Individual rights. What are the structures and processes we can create that implement that environment? That's the way I think of it.

Done correctly, it is whatever is the cheapest and most effective form of recognizing individual rights that could ever exist for the culture in question (the less intelligent the average individual in the population, the more expensive it is to achieve the optimal level of individual rights observance).

So, imagine that in the future the people have created the most efficient of all possible minarchist governments (given that future population's intelligence, knowledge and the world they are in). Then imagine they are taxed, X amount of dollars, as the cost of this government. Because our assumption is that it is the most efficient, then to move elsewhere one would, at best, pay more for the same level of individual rights observance, or more likely, they would pay more and get a politically less friendly system.

I think that the difficulty will be getting from where we are now to a point closer to minarchy - and that it will become much easier after that. That it would go from being a very inexpensive minarchy government, to a government supported by a set of volunteer payments - but if it didn't, so what? Do people just want something for nothing? A near nothing tax in exchange for near perfect political freedom - sounds like a good deal to me! Would they really be happier in some Somalia-like environment attempting to protect their rights through alignment with this or that war lord?

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Monday, June 22, 2009 - 6:59amSanction this postReply
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Done correctly, it is whatever is the cheapest and most effective form of recognizing individual rights that could ever exist for the culture in question (the less intelligent the average individual in the population, the more expensive it is to achieve the optimal level of individual rights observance).
................

You say this - and it is true... but then you, in your extrapolation, juxtapose two vastly different cultures, and presume the present one to prevail - when you interject Somalia... culture has so many different aspects to it, whatever the culture, including technological development, that there is little way of knowing how that one in the future would be able to handle such a one as is in the present - that to suggest matters would have to be as they are today, is shortsighted... remember, knowledge is power, and the knowledge of the future would as such be very powerful indeed...

You're of course also right in saying where the difficulty lies - in get from here to there... and it can only be achieved with education, of integrated education instead of piecemeal education as now is, where all parts are systemics of a whole - not from any tribal mentality, but from a foundational one... but once that is gained among most of the persons, the rest will be easier... but it has to come as understandings, not as commandments - and it is easier to command, or be commanded [to rule or be ruled] than to stand and think and understand...
(Edited by robert malcom on 6/22, 7:07am)


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Monday, June 22, 2009 - 3:19pmSanction this postReply
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Steve,

I'll readily toss out the term "privilege", but would substitute the word "service" for it instead of environment- e.g. optimal level of service.

Your comment that "the less intelligent the average individual in the population, the more expensive it is to achieve ..." is clear and correct. Unfortunately, we usually tend to walk different paths from that point. We diverge, I suspect, when talking about "given that future population's intelligence, knowledge and the world they are in". I believe we can reasonably expect that mixture to always be much the same as is is now.

I can somewhat agree with 'movement toward' what has been popularly called (here) mini-anarchy, but anarchy still implies 'messy' to me - loose ends that we're just saying we can't tie up. I have trouble accepting this to be true. And it is for this reason that I think the optimal level of service will always carry a higher price - in simple terms, more regulation than we'd otherwise choose in a perfect world.

As Robert says, the only sound route is better education - intelligent, thinking citizens. However, at my most optimistic, I just can never see us getting to that point where mini-anarchy could work.

jt

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Monday, June 22, 2009 - 4:07pmSanction this postReply
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Robert,

I didn't understand your reply to my reference to Somalia.

For me, there are the extremes: Too much government and no government. Both are unfit environments for a human being. I see us wanting to find just the right amount of government - and to seek it by constant movement in the needed direction.

I was discussing an imagined situation, a thought experiment, of being in a country with a near perfect implementation of individual rights (I say "near perfect" because it still has a tiny amount of taxes). I was pointing out that to complain about being in that situation, implies that one would rather go to a "better" country, and our thought experiment, as defined, would mean going to a country with a smaller government or to one with a larger government.

If the chosen destination has more government, then you have less than optimum rights protections (and probably more taxes not less). If a person opted for less government, then they would get less rights protection in exchange for less taxes. Since the hypothetical already has very small taxes, it wouldn't seem to be desirable to give up some rights protections for such a tiny gain - especially since there would likely be those that compete and optimize their self-interests, in activities around any rights violations that aren't protected.

The extreme when heading that direction is no taxes at all, but no government either - anarchy. Somalia is just short-hand for anarchy. I chose not to include unicorns OR desirable, working examples of anarchy.

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Monday, June 22, 2009 - 4:36pmSanction this postReply
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Jay,

I like the term "service" much better than "privilege". Certainly we create structures that provide services for our rights protection - like courts.

But I think that that knitting together these structures has the effect of creating a political environment. I think that it makes more sense than having to spell out "the sum of all services that make possible the optimal experience of life as relates to individual rights." As soon as you sum up all the services and all of the structures that provide them and all of the processes that define the operation of the structures you are talking about a complex, cultural environment abstracted to serve the perspective of political/economic effects on its people.

You said that you expect the future population's intelligence, knowledge and the world they are in to reasonably always be much the same as is is now. I find that astounding. Clearly knowledge has been growing exponentially over time. I would say that intelligence has varied enormously from one period to another, from one culture to another. What would you say of the relative intelligences of Ancient Greece's Athens, compared to fundamentalist Islamic jihadists? Don't you allow for the possibility of great variances in this realm? And the world (the political, cultural, technological surrondings) certainly varies over time and place. I just don't understand why you made that statement.... unless it is from a very pessimistic view of human nature.

I think we aren't connecting in the next paragraph where you talk about "mini-anarchy." I don't know what that is. I spoke of minarchy - which means minimal government consistent with individual rights. That has nothing to do with anarchy of any kind.

I agree with you and Robert that we need to pursue expectations of more intelligent behavior born of better education. Unless one has a pessimistic and somewhat dark view of human nature, they have to see that there is a path of eduction and cultural evolution that could lead to a near optimum, working minarchy (not mini-anarchy, whatever that is).

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Monday, June 22, 2009 - 4:38pmSanction this postReply
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Privilege literally means private law.

Post 11

Monday, June 22, 2009 - 5:44pmSanction this postReply
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Steve,

I don't see that we can ever avoid complexity. Likewise, whether it sounds pessimistic or not (and I'm generally considered an optimist), I don't believe that it is safe to assume that any large society will ever en masse act uniformly in rational self interest. Free societies, by their nature, are diverse and complex. As in ages past, we are not talking about knowledge, or even intelligence, we are talking about smarts. Are we truly smarter than our ancestors? Unlikely. We have more knowledge. We have greater perspective. Smarter? I doubt it.

The level of intelligence - smarts - we'd have to achieve on grand scale - smarts to recognize the pitfalls of altruism and socialism, smarts to differentiate between rational self interest and self aggrandizement, the smarts to demand respect of our rights and others. No easy trick getting enough people onboard. And that is why I think the overall cost of service is probably always going to be higher than we'd like.

jt

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Monday, June 22, 2009 - 5:47pmSanction this postReply
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Was only meaning that in today's level of civilization, of education, Somalias are to be expected... in the far future, where the education and thinking level is much higher, Somalias are far less likely to develop, and more easily put down...

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Wednesday, June 24, 2009 - 8:34amSanction this postReply
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Further lines of argument: 2007 & 1987




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Wednesday, June 24, 2009 - 10:05amSanction this postReply
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The Paradox of Violence is related to the Paradox of Taxation in a free country.

There is no practical state unilaterally free of the tyranny of violence. Any such state is always subject to the whims of the next mob that shows up.

Living in a state unilaterally free of violence and coercion may be a utopic thought. It may be a hypothetical thought. But it is not a practically achievable state. (It can be approached, but not achieved. See 'www.privateislands.com', and then defend your island and its utopic vision. Good luck defending it without the projection of force. But, that may be the closest available reality on earth. No taxes, but not cheap, either.)

The nature of violence is such that it can never be unilaterally repealed. We can scream, "Should not be!" until we are blue in the face, but without the forceful means to enforce, i.e., apply force to achieve those 'should not be!'s they are noisy wishes, mere requests.

So, the question is only, 'Which mob's rule do we accede to?'

There are plenty to choose from, they all have rules, rights, privileges, obligations and traditions to some or less degree.

One thing is for sure; enforcement costs, and they all got dues, and they all enforce their dues payments.

And, they all got corruption.

So, if you believe in this dues-less mob idea, then start a mob without dues. But, beware; that mob is competing with mobs that charge dues, and it is competing not on 'Scholastic Scrimmage,' but in the arena of the Paradox of Violence.

There was a time when the American mob, mob as it was, was the freest mob deal available. One worth dying for, it was that good a deal. A mob dedicated to the preservation of the idea that we were as free from the arbitrary rule of each other as possible. You know, neither a tyrant 6000 miles away, nor 6000 tyrants one mile away. Tyranny is tyranny.

That ideal has taken quite a beating recently, and America is looking more like European mob rule. New World is the Old World now, gradients don't last forever, nature always conspires to consume all gradient, without restoration.

So, if we're going to be organized like Europe and taxed like France, then I got to tell you, I'd rather live and work in Paris. Especially if all we are doing is passing time, waiting for the restoration of the Caliphate, as in, the latest global mob to apply violence in the face of merely unilateral wishes to disavow violence as a means to an end. Besides, I can watch France do nothing at the UN except pose just as well as I can watch the US do nothing at the UN except pose.

Taxation is the practically unavoidable pervasiveness of force.

The mob is always the biggest beast in the tribal jungle. So, if one is a bottom halfer, one takes that as license to ride the top half, who must have gotten tot he top half by swindling the bottom-half. And if one is a top-halfer, one takes that as a license to resent the bottom half.

And that is called naked sweaty ape human nature.

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Wednesday, June 24, 2009 - 10:17amSanction this postReply
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And that is called naked sweaty ape human nature.
............

No.

That is called the animalistic aspect of the human, and is referenced thru the Taking Syndrome, which is the humanized version of trying to act like an animal [as opposed to the Trading Syndrome, which is the full human mindset of the rational being]...

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Wednesday, June 24, 2009 - 7:53pmSanction this postReply
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The underlying false assumption that pervades this discussion is the concept of property as an absolute. 

 

Fact: If you create anything of value, you did it because of thousands of generations of humans who built the infrastructure - physical and mental - that was your starting point.  That, plus whatever qualities of character, knowledge, intelligence you have created in yourself as Value Added.  This clearly applies to both physical and mental capital.  How many useful words have you invented?  Thrown into a wilderness without hope of contact with civilization, how long would you survive?  And that's with all the incredible wealth of capital that you have in your head.  You are utterly dependent upon other people, past and present, for your existence, although you are also clearly dependent upon your own virtues for how well you use that inherited capital.

 

As I've discussed elsewhere, the only solution that solves the general problem of property, including the impossible to answer issues that libertarians avoid talking about, such as children's rights and limits on original claims (claiming the moon, or all the land to the horizon, or to the edge of the Milky Way Galaxy, etc.) is to set property in the context of its origin, the common law - literally, the law of the commons. 

 

Once you realize that property itself, including the contents of your mind, is derived from the commons - plus your own value added - then the issue of financing a state, or the anarchist equivalent in function - becomes one of charging for the private use of that commons.  If everyone pays a lease fee for taking property out of the commons for personal use, a fee that reflects the natural expenses of maintaining the commons itself, insuring against damages due to malfeasance or criminality on the part of the lease holder, paying the rest of humanity for its loss of control and use of that particular piece of commons, sustaining the commons infrastructure, including the common law legal structure, etc., then there will never be a need for additional "taxes." 

 

Since the commons itself is limited in any given temporal/spatial locale - there's only so much land, and only so much of that land suitable for farming, etc., the lease fees will naturally also be bid up by those who see a way to profit, thereby providing a bonus distributed to all the members of the commons equally. 

 

During reasonably prosperous times, there should be enough bonus that most people could live on the bonus alone, although very frugally compared to their neighbors who chose to be more productive.  During the extremely prosperous times that we are facing as we move toward the "Singularity" - assuming we don't wipe ourselves out first - most people could probably retire and live on the commons fees if they so chose, enjoying riches as far beyond those of today as the life of the common man in the Ist World is today beyond the dreams of a Medieval monarch, although still very frugally by comparison to the gainfully employed.

 

In case you haven't noticed, this totally solves the problem of the "contradiction" plaguing libertarians and objectivists regarding the necessity to initiate force (taxation) to pay for state services.  Unlike the unlimited and ultimately catastrophic competition of "need" that drives state decisions, the commons would be run on the basis of maximum profit, unless most people are insane, in which case - ceteris paribus - no system would work anyway.  Most people, even in the 3rd world, have absorbed the principle of not killing the golden goose, meaning that they would be quite happy to see productive people succeed and grow rich, as they would be getting a cut of the action via the bidding up of lease fees, just as a stockholder in a company wants to see that company succeed. 

 

 


Post 17

Wednesday, June 24, 2009 - 8:30pmSanction this postReply
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I think I may have posted the following before, but I can't seem to find it. It's only pertinent to apply the argument to a society where a minimal government exists. Anyway, for what it's worth:

 

The socialists cannot conceive of a society where taxes don't exist — after all, how can even the minimal governmental functions that the libertarians advocate be funded? The answer is in a voluntary tax (admittedly an oxymoron) which could be called a contribution or donation but, because this is an entirely new concept, a new word is required. "Xat", the exact opposite of a tax, would be appropriate but that word is a bit difficult to pronounce, so I think "zat" is preferable and it could be used both as a noun and a verb. Libertarians have considered zats in many ways and they have proposed national lotteries, fees for contract services, etc. but, in my opinion, none are adequate and are thus fair game for the socialists. Therefore, as an alternative, I propose the following:

 

Zats would be voluntary and the reason that people would zat is because the amount that an individual contributed would of public record and this would be a powerful motivator for individuals to portray themselves as socially responsible. While some people opposed to this idea will argue that it is an invasion of privacy, it is hardly that. Prominent politicians and so on must divulge their taxes.  Public servants whose classification is known will pretty much also have their income taxes known. Another argument against this proposal might be that a low zatter could be discriminated against, either socially or in the workplace, but poor people are unfortunately discriminated against right now because of their poverty instead of being judged on their character and ability. Personnel managers, when interviewing job candidates, would soon learn to identify applicants who would try to gain favor by zatting their way into a new job rather than having adequate personal qualities. 

 

The details of the scheme are at the heart of the advantages. There are two funds that could be zatted: the National Defense Fund and the Justice System Fund. Each fund has two segments, the "More" segment and the "Less" segment. Zatters can contribute to whatever fund and segment they choose but depending on which segment they zat the corresponding amount is deducted from the other segment. For example, if an anti-war advocate wanted to influence the funding of the war he would zat, say $1,000, to the "Less" segment of the National Defense Fund. This would cause an additional $1,000 to be depleted from the existing "More" segment and transferred to the "Less" segment. The opposite transaction would occur for pro-war advocates, thus zats to the "More" segment would cause funds to be transferred from the "Less" segment. Therefore, unpopular wars could not be funded and there would, in effect, be continual voting on the level of national defense funding. If the "More" fund got depleted due to some almost inconceivable perception by the populace that there were no external threats then the "Less" fund would be in reserve, ready to be activated in case of emergency. If one occurred everyone would then zat the "More" segment, causing large transfers from the "Less" segment to the "More" segment. The same process would be applied for the Justice System Fund. Only the total amount of any individual's zatment would need to be divulged — neither to the fund nor to the segment.

 

Norms for zatting would quickly become adopted by (private) analysts and statisticians relating income, social requirements and zat levels. This would be a constant topic of conversation in the media, as is taxation and federal financing in the media today, and people would become comfortable with an appropriate level of zatting for their station in life. Of course, some social climbers would try to appear more affluent than they really were, but then that would just be the cost of their deception, wouldn't it? Then, what about the freeloaders that might not zat at all? Well, there are freeloaders everywhere today. They find loopholes via high priced tax lawyers, off shore accounts, and so on. Gangsters and drug dealers don't bother paying taxes and there is a huge underground cash economy. Think of the millions upon millions of talented people doing the non-productive, mind stultifying drudgery of bookkeeping for tax purposes, the misallocation of investments, not for the best productivity, but for tax avoidance, and the stress of just trying to cope with the mountain of tax laws. 



Post 18

Wednesday, June 24, 2009 - 8:37pmSanction this postReply
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Yeah, this idea if not this exact essay was posted before and was highly controversial.

Post 19

Thursday, June 25, 2009 - 12:20amSanction this postReply
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Is Taxation an Initiation of Force?

Yes.

Next thread!

OK, in case someone here needs it explained in excruciating detail -- it is an initiation of force for someone to take your money without your consent, under threat of imprisonment or worse for noncompliance, in "exchange" for "services" you didn't ask to have provided and which you may find useless or even deleterious to your self-interest and thus morally objectionable.

Snarkiness aside:

Force involves the elimination of choice; since we are free to flee the country if we choose, by his logic there is no initiation of force being applied in taxation.

I need some help in countering his argument. Thoughts?


Ask your friend where exactly you can flee to where no taxation will occur. Ask your friend what happens if you apply for a passport and the application is denied -- or if you get in the line at the airport to catch a flight to leave the country, and don't meekly comply with the directives of the TSA personnel. Are you still free to leave? Is it "freedom" if you can only achieve it by submitting to authority?
(Edited by Jim Henshaw on 6/25, 12:29am)


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