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Sunday, March 9, 2008 - 12:58pmSanction this postReply
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Last week, I attended a debate on immigration between Dr. Yaron Brook, executive director of the Ayn Rand Institute and Michael Erickson, Chairman of Republicans for the National Interest (no, not our own Mike Erickson, thankfully!).

The debate was to address the following issues: What value does immigration pose to a country, versus having restrictive policies or a closed border? What is to be done about potential terrorists and criminals? What are the economic ramifications of immigration? Do immigrants displace jobs? Will open immigration cause an unjust drain on the welfare system––more so than is the case currently? Will overcrowding be a problem? Will an influx of immigrants irrevocably alter the cultural atmosphere? Do immigrants have the right to come to America? Do Americans have the commensurate right to employ and sell housing to immigrants? What does a rational moral code have to say about allowing immigrants into the country?

Although not all of these questions were directly addressed, many of them were.

Yaron Brook lead off the debate with a rousing defense of individual rights and of free association. He defended the right of any employer to hire any worker, and of any worker to work for any employer. The Republican countered that the Mexican farm workers were being exploited and forced to do slave labor. He said that their employment should, therefore, be outlawed as a form of slavery.

Brook replied that it was preposterous to equate immigrant labor with slavery -- that black slaves were brought here against their will and forced to work for plantation owners. The Mexican farm workers, by contrast, came here voluntarily, chose the work, could leave any time they wanted and were sending their earnings, which were more than they could earn in Mexico, back to their families. He acknowledged that in some cases they were treated poorly by their employers, but said this was because they were illegal and were not free to search for better employment opportunities. The solution to their mistreatment, such as it was, is to make their employment here legal, to begin with.

However, Brook said that not everyone should be allowed in. He stated that there were three classes of foreigners who should be denied entry: terrorists, criminals and people with infectious diseases. But all others are welcome, and if their entry were legal, the border patrols would have that much less work to do, since only criminals, terrorists and people with infectious diseases would be trying to sneak across. Everyone else would be allowed legal entry into the country, and would have nothing to lose by going through legal channels.

His Republican opponent argued that the Mexican workers were being paid wages that were too low and that if they were allowed work permits, they should receive a minimum wage that is comparable to what American workers would have received were it not for the foreign competition. This, of course, is the old protectionist argument applied to foreign workers instead of foreign products. But the objections to it are the same: protectionism, whether for products or labor, is anti-competitive and harmful to economic progress. Brook pointed out that the lower wages make possible lower prices, which are beneficial to consumers.

He also said that in a free economy, immigrants would not be a drain on public services, because there would be no public welfare, public schooling, etc. As for changing the cultural landscape, he argued against multiculturalism, and said that immigrants who wanted to become citizens and participate in the political process (instead of simply remaining here as resident workers) should be required to learn English, since it's important for the citizens of a country to speak the same language.

The debate touched briefly on foreign policy, and Brook said that wartime security measures such as monitoring private communications require a declaration of war, so that when the war is declared over, these measures can be repealed. The problem now is that since there has been no declaration of war, there is no standard by which the repeal of these security measures can ever be politically required. He also included as terrorists those who belong to a mosque that preaches Jihad and Islamic radicalism. He said that such people should not be allowed to advocate war against the United States and proselytize for their cause. We certainly wouldn't have allowed Nazis into the country during World War II. By the same token, we shouldn't allow Islamic radicals here, now that we are engaged in a war with radical Islam.

I thought Brook did an exemplary job of presenting the Objectivist position on immigration against a Hamiltonian Republican who was about as far from the Objectivist position on this issue as any statist could be. Just the title of his organization -- "Republicans for the National Interest" -- was a clear indication of his unabashed collectivism.

- Bill


(Edited by William Dwyer on 3/09, 1:23pm)


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Post 1

Sunday, March 9, 2008 - 3:57pmSanction this postReply
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Thank you for posting this Bill!

A few things that piques my curiosity on this is how can we effectively identify criminals and terrorists who try to go through legal channels? I would imagine this requires some cooperation with the country of origin the immigrant is coming from. For example we would have to share a criminal record database with Mexico to know who is or isn't a criminal with a means for identification. But can we trust these other governments? I wonder what would happen if say the Mexican government listed criminals who were guilty of illegitimate crimes as a result of government corruption or unjust laws? Or people who really are criminals but because of rampant corruption these criminals escape prosecution in Mexico and never listed as a criminal?

Detecting communicable disease is easy, routine check-up for a variety of diseases should be simple enough. Identifying a criminal probably a little less effective, and terrorists even harder, especially if they illicit support from individuals with no known previous criminal record. But of course that's not to say it's better to perpetuate the same system of partially banning immigration. I think no matter what we have to accept criminals may end up in this country one way or another, it's more a question of do the benefits outweigh the costs and I sincerely believe they do if we lift the partial ban on immigration. We need this workforce as I'd rather see our standard of living improve, not stagnate or regress. And as long as we have a strong judicial system that is harsh on criminals, we should worry less about the potential for criminals coming into our country.
(Edited by John Armaos on 3/09, 4:10pm)


Post 2

Monday, March 10, 2008 - 4:08amSanction this postReply
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I love the fact that Bill is able to attend these things, and then provide the scoop to us.

Thanks, Bill.

John, All -

 I would imagine this requires some cooperation with the country of origin the immigrant is coming from. For example we would have to share a criminal record database with Mexico to know who is or isn't a criminal with a means for identification. But can we trust these other governments?

When you think about the level of cooperation that exists within markets now, I don't see this as much of a problem, really. Even China cooperates with recognized international standards in manufacturing.

When it comes to the legal process, or convictions, I think a simple color code might be enough.  Black, murder conviction. Red, violent crime conviction. Green, larceny conviction, etc. I can't imagine foreign governments having a hard time with this, because if they did, citizens would despot legislators quickly.  Any kind of color on an ID would incur further investigation.  Those who desire to come here want to do so freely. They don't want to worry, or be afraid.

Just an idea. I certainly understand the concern over distinguishing the innocent from the non.


Post 3

Monday, March 10, 2008 - 6:34amSanction this postReply
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I pretty much agree with Yaron Brook on his points - the fact that immigration is so restricted causes the majority of problems.  In fact, maybe pressure from all the immigrants will force states to begin eliminating their "freebies" and welfare.

Post 4

Tuesday, March 11, 2008 - 9:54pmSanction this postReply
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Well, I don't think migrant working should be banned as a form of slavery. That's unreasonable for the same reasons Yaron gave. But I do think Michael's point is salvageable. If we never grant citizenship to migrant workers, we risk creating a permanent subclass, which is inapposite to U.S. principles.

I would like to have seen the debaters discuss what rights/benefits/protects and obligations/costs/risks that migrants workers should be subject to.

Jordan


Post 5

Tuesday, March 11, 2008 - 10:04pmSanction this postReply
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Good point Teresa. Of course I do realize just because the system of differentiating between the innocent and the criminal may not be perfect as we would have to rely on the cooperation of corrupt governments, it of course doesn't mean it shouldn't be tried as it can certainly mitigate the flow of criminals here and it is far better use of resources rather than trying to seal up the borders all together and prevent no one from coming here, which is a completely fruitless exercise. Not to mention also unjust to do so.

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Post 6

Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 3:43amSanction this postReply
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Right.  Such a system wouldn't have to start with corrupt governments, either. I can see the U.S. and Canada cooperating in this way, along with much of Europe, and Australia.  Other countries would be forced to fall in line, or risk losing many of their best producers anyway.

Kinda like how we banned tainted dog food. If standards aren't adhered to, you don't get in.  


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Post 7

Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 8:13amSanction this postReply
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Tainted food is a good analogy. Do we have a quota system for how much healthful food we admit into the country? Well, I guess there are import quotas and tariffs on various foodstuffs, but those exist because our government wants to protect domestic producers from foreign competition. Come to think of it, that's probably the same reason we have a quota system on immigrant labor. It's simple protectionism. We seek to provide domestic workers with a kind of monopoly -- immunity from foreign competition.

Of course, that's gotten around by outsourcing, which is now being condemned as well. Von Mises coined the phrase "the anti-capitalistic mentality." What we have in this country is an anti-competitive mentality from the very people who are quickest to shout monopoly and to invoke the anti-trust laws, even though they employ these laws against the most competitive producers like Microsoft.

What a circus!

Post 8

Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 9:40amSanction this postReply
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What a circus!
nay - do not slur such an honorable group [ unlike carnies, who indeed are disreputables].. say rather, a crap game...;-)
[used to work for Clyde Beatty/Cole Bros, so know that cry is ill served]


Post 9

Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 3:49pmSanction this postReply
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Come to think of it, that's probably the same reason we have a quota system on immigrant labor. It's simple protectionism.

I'm sure Bill's right (as usual!)


Post 10

Wednesday, March 12, 2008 - 3:56pmSanction this postReply
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He's definitely right. It's also more competition for welfare entitlements as well as for jobs. These anti-immigrationists are just a bunch of Socialist tyrants.

Post 11

Thursday, March 13, 2008 - 6:30amSanction this postReply
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The conservatives don't like immigration because it competes with "Americans" and changes their culture.

The liberals like immigration because it allows them to get more votes for more free give aways.

Neither is right.


Post 12

Thursday, March 13, 2008 - 10:38amSanction this postReply
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Brook said that not everyone should be allowed in. He stated that there were three classes of foreigners who should be denied entry: terrorists, criminals and people with infectious diseases. But all others are welcome...
1. What about communists, Nazis, and jihadis?
2. What about those who hate America, Americans, and American culture -- and wish to poison it from within?
3. What about those who hate freedom, justice, and individual rights?
4. What about religious fanatics and members of bizarre paranoid sects?
5. What about those who are badly mentally or physically crippled?
6. What about those who love Big Brother and Satan, and vow to vote for them always?
7. What about those who promise to never learn English, nor associate with those who do?
8. What about Ku Klux Klaners, Black Muslims, and other hard-line bigots?
9. What about poor people who need immediate million-dollar operations with million-dollar longterm medical care? 
10. What about those with 10 school-age special-needs kids who all have cancer?
11. What about people who are exceptionally stupid, uneducated, immoral, dishonest, poor, unhealthy, weak, ugly, lazy, boring, slovenly, sneaky, old, nasty, neurotic, and miserable -- all at the same time? 


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Post 13

Thursday, March 13, 2008 - 11:22amSanction this postReply
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8. What about Ku Klux Klaners, Black Muslims, and other hard-line bigots? [emphasis mine]


I guess we'd have to export you then.

Post 14

Thursday, March 13, 2008 - 1:14pmSanction this postReply
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1. What about communists, Nazis, and jihadis?
Kyrel, I think he'd say that since we're not at war with the communists and Nazis, they would be permitted entry. He would, of course, say that the jihadis -- those with whom we are currently at war -- should be kept out.

The others you mentioned who simply have philosophical differences with American culture would presumably be allowed in. The answer to immigrants who would exploit the welfare system is not to have state-supported welfare. But if you're going to allow Americans who were born in the U.S. to have it, then you can't discriminate against naturalized citizens.

- Bill



Post 15

Friday, March 14, 2008 - 9:11amSanction this postReply
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I guess we'd have to export you then.

Even outstandingly 'good' people today generally know nothing about anything on the issue of bias, prejudice, etc. As already stated, I'm the least bigoted person on the planet, bar none. There's 6.6 billion people on this earth, and when it comes to knowledge about and genuine opposition to racism, sexism, etc. I have moral superiority over every last one of you.


Post 16

Friday, March 14, 2008 - 9:51amSanction this postReply
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Bill -- I really appreciate your news report on this debate! :-) I wish everybody would do this for Objectivist lectures around the country. I also think the debate was probably well worth hearing -- despite Brook's straw man Republican opponent. Hopefully ARI will soon post a video or audio recording so everybody can enjoy it and possibly learn from it. Still...

Yaron Brook seems impressively clueless. America today is an emphatic welfare state and is likely to remain as such (thanks in part to Brook's and ARI's intellectual incompetence) for many decades to come. So if Brook didn't address the immigration issue in this context, he didn't address the immigration issue. I think he needs to go back and stage another debate. Or come to New York and try one with me (if he dares).

America is fast becoming a third world nation -- to state the obvious. The degradation in the quality of the people over the last four decades or so is especially notable. The barbarians are at the gate. A massive number are already inside. To let or invite (!) still more inside in an anarchic lawless manner is absurd.

No one should be allowed to immigrate to America -- or even work here or visit -- unless they significantly enhance the quality of the nation. Considering the masses of foreigners who seek to come here, this should be an easy standard to meet. Citizenship and even denizenship are a magnificent benefit, privilege, and honor. Degraders, parasites, and enemies shouldn't be allowed inside. The exploitive anti-libertarian rabble should be resisted.

I have a bit more to say on this one. But maybe I'll wait till I hear the actual debate. I hope Brook isn't as out to lunch, and as much of a destroyer of liberty and America, as he seems.


Post 17

Friday, March 14, 2008 - 11:59amSanction this postReply
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In post 16 K.Z writes

No one should be allowed to immigrate to America -- or even work here or visit -- unless they significantly enhance the quality of the nation. Considering the masses of foreigners who seek to come here, this should be an easy standard to meet. Citizenship and even denizenship are a magnificent benefit, privilege, and honor. Degraders, parasites, and enemies shouldn't be allowed inside. The exploitive anti-libertarian rabble should be resisted.


I respond:

And what legal constitutional process exists to make such a call? I can see denying welfare benefits to immigrants and requiring legal residents to cover any expenses such immigrants might incur. I can see even requiring that a prospective immigrant has a firm job offer or that a bond be posted guaranteeing his first three years expenses here.

But that other stuff? Who is going to be the judge? You ? And who are you?

Bob Kolker




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Post 18

Friday, March 14, 2008 - 12:22pmSanction this postReply
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There's 6.6 billion people on this earth, and when it comes to knowledge about and genuine opposition to racism, sexism, etc. I have moral superiority over every last one of you.


In addition to communicable diseases and felony convictions, can we keep people out of the US based on Hubris as well?

Post 19

Sunday, March 16, 2008 - 7:33amSanction this postReply
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I have no problem with open immigration - so long as the socialistic perks that lure the laggards are eliminated. I do; however, have a major problem with one-way borders. The imbalance causes economic disruption that runs like a shockwave from the border to the interior of the US. Any time you suddenly and dramatically increase the population you increase the demand for jobs and other resources such as housing, health care and the basic necessities of life. Until the capitalist system gets itself into gear and begins to satisfy the demand for material goods by taking advantage of the now-inflated labor pool of the suddenly unemployed, many who live in the affected country will suffer mightily.

Certainly the economic dislocation will be temporary, probably running its course in a decade or so in the case of Mexico, but what are we getting in return? Nothing. The Mexican border is virtually closed to us gringos. Their immigration laws allow only the most desirable individuals to reside there - those with guaranteed means of self support. You cannot meddle in Mexican politics. You can only own land in 'approved' zones, and if you want to go into business, most of the time you must find a Mexican investor to co-own the company with you. US manufacturers have recently flocked to Mexico only because government corruption and a long entrenched patronage system keeps the average Mexican worker locked into a slave wage.

I could; however, live with an open border - bestowing all the rights, responsibilities and privileges of citizenship upon any applicant who resides in either country for at least a year. The lure of rich natural resources and cheap labor would soon attract hordes of Norte Americano pioneers who - with the power to vote and participate in politics - will bring with them an end to patronage and corruption.

If the Mexican people want a free ticket to the US, they should be prepared to offer the same in return. Until then, I advise we adopt the Mexican immigration laws as our own.


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