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Post 100

Sunday, January 20, 2008 - 10:43pmSanction this postReply
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"I think there is a responsibility for consideration in a contract, a seller and buyer to have a harmony of interests must not be out to look to shaft the other guy and take advantage of his goodwill offering."

So if a grocery store offers a bunch of loss leaders -- groceries priced at or below the store's wholesale costs -- in the expectation that people shopping there will also buy regularly priced goods to give them a profit, am I immoral if I buy only loss leaders? Am I supposed to wander into the store, discern that certain items are loss leaders, try and figure out how much profit the store should make, and buy other items at prices I think are too high so as to not "shaft" the store? Does anyone engage in this kind of thinking in an attempt to be ethical?

Or is it entirely the responsibility of the grocery store to set prices on their products that ensure that the net result of all purchases is a reasonable profit, and not rely on the kindness of strangers for their livelihood?

Post 101

Monday, January 21, 2008 - 1:09amSanction this postReply
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Jeff writes,
Once again, what the store does or does not (or can or can not) know at the time of the purchase, does not determine the ethical status of the buyer.
But the fact that the store doesn't inquire about the buyer's intentions and doesn't establish its policy with respect to those intentions means that the buyer's intentions are not part of the contract, in which case, they are irrelevant to the ethical status of the buyer. The only thing that's relevant is that the buyer pay for the product before he takes it out of the store.
And, in particular, with reference to your statement that there's no harm to the store -- whether true or not is beside the point, with respect to the ethics of the buyer. He may not be lying (although this is debatable and has been covered at length), he is being dishonest, i.e. faking reality, by pretending to buy the camera, knowing he intends to return it for a full refund. That the store allows this has no bearing on the ethics of the buyer.
He's not being dishonest, because there is no representation that in buying the product, he intends to keep it.
Do you really want to argue that an action is only unethical if party A harms party B?
No, of course not, but if it doesn't harm the store or violate the seller's rights, then what's unethical about it? You say that it's fraudulent or dishonest; in fact, it's neither, because the buyer's action is mute with respect to his intention of either keeping or returning the product. And if his action is neither fraudulent or dishonest, then on what grounds is it unethical?

John writes,
But businesses like Hampton Inn and Macy's clearly are trying to judge the intentions of their customers by refusing to do business with people that they feel abuse their company's policies.
But what constitutes an "abuse" of their company's policies? It isn't buying a product with the intention of returning it; it's buying a product and returning it repeatedly, regardless of one's intentions at the time of purchase. A shopper who buys a product and returns it only once is not abusing the policy, even if he intended to return it at the time of purchase, whereas a shopper who buys a product and returns it repeatedly is abusing the policy, even if he didn't intend to return it at the time of purchase. In short, the "abuse" in this case refers not to the buyer's intentions but to his actions.
But suppose Bill you and I enter into a contract with each other for an automobile I am selling to you. I say I'm selling the car for 2,000 dollars, I write up a contract, give it you, but there was a typo and I entered 200 instead of 2000. According to your logic, since there is no way to objectively assess what was spoken verbally (save for perhaps we had a tape recorder) to you there is nothing unethical about taking the written contract price over the verbal agreement and give me only 200 dollars for the car.
Your example is not analogous. The store could establish its policy of "no questions asked," because there is no convenient way to assess the buyer's intentions. Or it could do so simply as a way to attract business. In either case, the policy is one that disregards the buyer's intentions at the time of purchase by allowing him to buy the product even if he intends to return it.

By contrast, the sale of your car does not involve a policy in which you're willing to disregard the amount of money I pay for it. You're explicitly requiring 2,000 dollars for it; the typo does not represent your price; your verbal statement does. And I am obligated to pay it, if I want the car. You and I both know what price you're charging, because you've made it explicit.
To you there is I guess nothing unethical about that, you can't sit there and judge my intentions I suppose, maybe I just changed my mind and decided to give you the car for 200 dollars and it's not a typo, after all you're just following the terms of the contract. Nothing unethical about that right?
Here I would have positive evidence that you are willing to part with the car only if you receive 2000 dollars for it, so it's reasonable for me to infer that the 200 dollar price on the contract is a typo. The fact that a third party may not know this is irrelevant, if objective evidence of the price is available to the contracting parties themselves.
I think there is a responsibility for consideration in a contract, a seller and buyer to have a harmony of interests must not be out to look to shaft the other guy and take advantage of his goodwill offering. A store that has a service guarantee didn't make the policy so people who are completely satisfied with a product or service could just get products and services for free.
But a person who returns a product that he has purchased isn't completely satisfied with it at the price he paid; otherwise, he wouldn't return it. This is true, even if he buys it with the intention of returning it, for he could always change his mind and decide to keep it, in which case, he would be completely satisfied. There is no indication that a store with a "no questions" asked return policy isn't willing to allow customers to buy the product even if they intend to return it, because they might decide to keep it once they try it out. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the vendors at my local farmer's market allow people to sample their fruits and nuts, on the premise that a certain percentage of customers will decide to buy them once they discover how good they are.

- Bill

(Edited by William Dwyer on 1/21, 1:12am)


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Post 102

Monday, January 21, 2008 - 7:33amSanction this postReply
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Bill wrote:
He's not being dishonest, because there is no representation that in buying the product, he intends to keep it.
Of course there is! That's what it means to sell/buy something: to transfer ownership. If a store accepts returns it is really buying the merchandise back at the original sales price.

Post 103

Monday, January 21, 2008 - 8:41amSanction this postReply
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Rick,

By "buying the product," I simply meant the act of paying for it and taking possession. Look, all the store requires here is that if a shopper walks out the door with the product, he's paid for it. The store is allowing him to return it and get his money back. It doesn't care whether he intends to return it at the time of purchase or decides to do so after the purchase. In either case, the result is the same: the product is returned for a full refund.

To make this clear, ask yourself which alternative the store would prefer: (a) a customer who buys the product intending to keep it, but decides instead to return it, or (b) a customer who buys the product intending to return it, but decides instead to keep it. Obviously, the store would prefer the latter, which should tell you that all it cares about is whether the customer keeps the product or returns it, not whether he intends to keep it or return it.

- Bill

Post 104

Monday, January 21, 2008 - 10:20amSanction this postReply
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"No, of course not, but if it doesn't harm the store or violate the seller's rights, then what's unethical about it? You say that it's fraudulent or dishonest; in fact, it's neither, because the buyer's action is mute with respect to his intention of either keeping or returning the product. And if his action is neither fraudulent or dishonest, then on what grounds is it unethical?" Bill D.

I've already answered this at least twice. To state my view again would be pointless. If you're not persuaded at this point, there's nothing I could say that would move you. We'll just have to disagree.

Just to repeat one point, however,

"... the buyer's action is mute with respect to his intention of either keeping or returning the product. ..." Bill D.

I pointed out explicitly that those intentions were part of the stated scenario from the very beginning. You also agreed that intentions were relevant to judging an action as ethical or not in your example of the car and pedestrian. You agreed further that the ethical judgment doesn't depend solely on whether party A harms party B.

If you still disagree that the buyer's action is unethical in light of his intention, there's nothing more I can say on the subject that would move you. So, I'll let it go at this point.


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Post 105

Monday, January 21, 2008 - 11:24amSanction this postReply
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I think it's important to distinguish between transactions where there's a reasonable expectation that you're going to take into account the interests of the other party, and transactions where it's entirely impersonal and everyone is expected to look out for their own interests.

For the first situation, a marriage or other long-term intimate relationship implies a commitment to look after the other person's interests. Granted, you could ruthlessly exploit your partner from the get-go, but unless your partner had some serious issues, the relationship would break up tout suite.

OTOH, shopping at, say, Wal-Mart, is an entirely impersonal experience. Each store has thousands of customers, and can't realistically expect altruism in such a depersonalized transaction, and thus the onus is upon them to come up with a realistic return policy that, on net, will allow them to maximize their long-term profits. If that means a few people will work the system, well, that's a cost of doing business in order to not aggravate the majority of customers by making the return process excessively adversarial.

My personal ethical system guides me to not abuse the system, because then I'd feel icky, and that price of that ickiness exceeds the benefits of squeezing a few dollars out of the store. But, to say others must adopt an ethical system that works for me, even though it doesn't work for them, would be, well, unethical. And if a store expected me to look out for their bottom line, and make sure I wasn't "exploiting" their return policy or buying too many of their loss leaders, well, then they're trying to impose a non-monetary cost on me (and a quasi-statist ideology to boot) that would lead me to shop elsewhere.

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Post 106

Monday, January 21, 2008 - 11:47amSanction this postReply
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I'm amazed at the number of posts on this. I've read only a few. I side with those who claim the customer who borrows the camera is dishonest (but the act is not serious enough to call it criminal). Maybe somebody has already asked this, but I ask of those on the other side: Would it be more honest for the person to borrow a camera from a friend?

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Post 107

Monday, January 21, 2008 - 2:48pmSanction this postReply
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Jim wrote:

"I think there is a responsibility for consideration in a contract, a seller and buyer to have a harmony of interests must not be out to look to shaft the other guy and take advantage of his goodwill offering."

So if a grocery store offers a bunch of loss leaders -- groceries priced at or below the store's wholesale costs -- in the expectation that people shopping there will also buy regularly priced goods to give them a profit, am I immoral if I buy only loss leaders? Am I supposed to wander into the store, discern that certain items are loss leaders, try and figure out how much profit the store should make, and buy other items at prices I think are too high so as to not "shaft" the store? Does anyone engage in this kind of thinking in an attempt to be ethical?

Or is it entirely the responsibility of the grocery store to set prices on their products that ensure that the net result of all purchases is a reasonable profit, and not rely on the kindness of strangers for their livelihood?


That's not the same as some value trade occurred in the grocery store offering items below cost. In the example of the customer getting value while giving nothing in return, no value exchange took place.

Merlin:

I'm amazed at the number of posts on this. I've read only a few. I side with those who claim the customer who borrows the camera is dishonest (but the act is not serious enough to call it criminal). Maybe somebody has already asked this, but I ask of those on the other side: Would it be more honest for the person to borrow a camera from a friend?


I would say so. But I would think it would be immoral to not make a concerted effort to return the favor and let your friend borrow something in return in the future, or perhaps buy your friend lunch.

Bill

Your example is not analogous. The store could establish its policy of "no questions asked," because there is no convenient way to assess the buyer's intentions. Or it could do so simply as a way to attract business. In either case, the policy is one that disregards the buyer's intentions at the time of purchase by allowing him to buy the product even if he intends to return it.


Having worked in the customer service industry my whole life Bill, I can tell you the former reason you offer is more accurate. A no-questions-asked policy is there so a customer doesn't feel hassled about returning a product and choose a store that has a hassle-free return policy. For example let's look at a plausible fictional conversation between business owner and consumer in a store that has a "Questions-asked" policy but will take it back for any reason.

Business representative: "Hi Mr. Customer, can I ask what was wrong with the product?"

Customer: "It's not really what I wanted"

Business representative: "I'm sorry to hear that, is there anything specifically you can tell me about the product that didn't meet your expectations?"

Customer: "I really don't have the time or the energy to get into it in detail"

Business representative: "Ok, can I interest you in a similar product? I can tell you what the features are and we can see if it's something that more suits your desires"

Customer: "Look god damn it! I don't have the time and I don't want the product!"

Ok so we can see why a store has a no-questions-asked policy, because they don't want to hassle a good customer. I would seriously doubt they have the policy because they want to disregard the customers intentions, they simply don't have a choice. You are adding the extra qualifier here that they may not mind the customer who never had any intention of keeping the product but use it rent free instead, since this runs contrary to everything I've experienced in the service industry, I don't accept that premise you offer as a possibility.

But a person who returns a product that he has purchased isn't completely satisfied with it at the price he paid; otherwise, he wouldn't return it. This is true, even if he buys it with the intention of returning it, for he could always change his mind and decide to keep it, in which case, he would be completely satisfied.


I find that to be absurd, he is satisfied with the product, it suited his desires (to rent a camera for free for the weekend for example) he just didn't want to keep it. So there was nothing wrong with the product, it completely suited what he wanted, but he just wanted it rent-free, that does not in any customer service oriented business I'm aware of meet a rational standard for evaluating customer dissatisfaction.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, the vendors at my local farmer's market allow people to sample their fruits and nuts, on the premise that a certain percentage of customers will decide to buy them once they discover how good they are.


This is not analogous as you are ignoring the qualifiers we are attaching to the original example. Perhaps it could be unethical if a person never has any intention of coming back to that farmer's market (maybe he's a transient and lives out of state) and takes the free sample just to take advantage of getting free food. The farmer obviously isn't aware of who's local, and who is out of town with no intentions of returning. So you are giving us an analogy with no additional information of who these consumers are.

Post 108

Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 10:08pmSanction this postReply
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I wrote, "[T]he buyer's action is mute with respect to his intention of either keeping or returning the product." Jeff replied,
I pointed out explicitly that those intentions were part of the stated scenario from the very beginning. You also agreed that intentions were relevant to judging an action as ethical or not in your example of the car and pedestrian. You agreed further that the ethical judgment doesn't depend solely on whether party A harms party B.
Right, but my point was that interpersonal behavior is not unethical unless one intends to initiate force, fraud or deception. Since buying a product and returning it (with a "no-questions-asked" policy) does not involve the initiation of force, fraud or deception, whether or not one intended to return it at the time of purchase has no bearing on whether or not one's action is ethical. The reason I say that "the buyer's action is mute with respect to his intention of either keeping or returning the product" is that the store's policy is mute with respect to it.

[Editorial comment: I realize now that I should simply have said that store's policy is mute with respect to the buyer's intention, not that the buyer's action is, because obviously the buyer either intends to return the product or not. My point was that in this case, the buyer's intention is irrelevant to the ethical status of his action.]

The store's policy doesn't state that one is prohibited from buying the product unless one intends to keep it. The store could very well have a "no-questions-asked" policy because it attracts business or, what amounts to the same thing, because its competitors have the policy, and because the store doesn't want to lose business to its competitors. If customers can buy the product for any reason whatsoever, even just to use it once or to try it out and then return it, they are more likely to shop there than they are to shop at a store that doesn't have such a policy.

Editorial Comment: [So, if the reason for the store's policy is not clearly evident to the buyer, as it wouldn't be without being explicitly stated, there can be no implied contract between the buyer and seller that the product is to be purchased only if the buyer does not intend to return it. In order for a contract to be breached, there has to be a meeting of the minds between the buyer and seller. If the seller does not make clear to the buyer his intentions, then even if the buyer breaches those intentions unwittingly, there is no breach of contract and no fraud. And if there is no fraud, then in this case, there is no breach of ethics.]

Besides, why would a retailer tell his patrons that he won't allow them to buy a product with the intention of returning it, but will allow them to buy it and return it if they change their minds? Whether the buyer returns the product because he intended to or because he has a change of heart, the result is the same. The retailer gets the product back. Why would he permit the buyer to return it the one case but not the other? It's the final sale that he's interested in, not the intention of a final sale.

- Bill
(Edited by William Dwyer on 1/24, 1:27pm)


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