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Post 40

Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 1:45amSanction this postReply
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"If he has no intention of keeping it, then he is not representing the transaction clearly to the store. He's giving them the impression that this is a real purchase that may or may not be returned, versus a secret renting with no intention."

I agree that this is where the immorality occurs. The problem is, is that criminal fraud would require evidence of the purchaser's representation of the transaction, that is, it is fraudulent to buy something with the intent of only renting it.

I think we're in agreement, but the legalism of the term "fraud" is what's blocking communication. To me, making a trade under false or fraudulent pretenses isn't necessarily criminal fraud. Additionally, given that the only way to prove the fraud would be to have the purchaser cop to the fact that he's only intending to rent, well...

Post 41

Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 2:12amSanction this postReply
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Steven, I also agree that we're very close to saying the same thing.  But let me try it again.  The only reason we can have criminal laws that are legitimate is if there is an underlying rights violation.  In the case of a legally prosecuted fraud, we have to be able to identify the rights that were violated.  If there is a right that is violated, then it's the minimum necessary for us to have a law to criminalize it.  So everything hinges on that rights violation.  The law comes second.

I've tried to make the case that there is a right violation here, even if the justice system is unable to prove it, or even if the store doesn't notice it.  The customer took possession of the camera, and used it, without providing his full part of the transaction.  Once we recognize, with the full set of facts, that it is a rights violation, that's all we need to say that it's fraud.  That's all I'm getting at.  We're not talking about whether it can be legally proven to be fraud, or whether the law actually recognizes it as a criminal act.  Just that the rights violation has occurred.  So instead of thinking about it as "criminal fraud", which requires those secondary qualities, we can restrict the question to simply whether a rights violation has actually happened.  I think so.

It may be that the law doesn't recognize this as an implicit part of the transaction.  While I think it is implicit, one could make the argument that it is something that needs to be explicit since people wouldn't know about it or assume it.  I don't think that's the case, but it's a question of context.  Now if the store remedied that by having explicitly, as part of their sales policy, that they won't sell to people intending to merely rent the product, then again it goes back to something that could be prosecuted by the law.  It more clearly becomes a case of fraud (rights violation).  But it still has the same issues of proof that may end up making it not actually enforced.

We can then ask the more practical questions, like whether it takes a confession to prove it, or if there are some other possible methods.  Perhaps at the end of the day there's no good criteria that is actually useful.  Okay.  But it doesn't negate the fact that there was rights violation.


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Post 42

Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 6:42amSanction this postReply
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In Post 0 of this thread, WCA wrote:
I've known people who've purchased highly expensive digital cameras at Wal-Mart, only to use for a certain occasion, and then return them for their money back. Free-rental, in essence. Ethical, or unethical?
Ayn Rand encouraged us to check our premises.  In Post 35 of this thread, John Armaos wrote:
A store can't differentiate between someone who decides they don't want the product because the customer was in error in believing they wanted the product as opposed to people who just want the product for a short length of time but are not willing to pay for it and know they can take advantage of the store's ignorance. A "no questions asked policy" is one where the store is afraid of alienating customers by asking what may be perceived by the customer as "nosy" questions. But I guarantee you, if everyone was honest about why they were returning a product, and if one of the reasons were they just wanted to use the product for a short period of time but not keep it, these store polices would evaporate because then they would have better information to discriminate. In essence what is going on here is the store is aware there are dishonest people, but they are aware they can't differentiate between honest and dishonest consumers, and thus they design a return policy so they they don't alienate honest customers and know they outnumber the dishonest customers, and a business decision is made to accept the losses because it outweighs the benefits.
John's insights into the origins and nature of "no questions asked" return policies expose the circular reasoning of those who consider the "free rental" option ethical and not fraudulent.

Q: What are you doing?
 
A: I am buying a digital camera which I intend to use for a few days before returning.
 
Q: Why do you think you can do that ethically?
 
A: The store has a "no questions asked" return policy.
 
Q: Why does it have a "no questions asked" return policy?
 
A: It .... uh ... well ... to be quite honest, it encounters people like me who indulge in "free rental" under the guise of intending to purchase and keep, and it does not want to alienate the majority of honest but mistaken customers with "nosy" questions.
 
Q: In other words, the very existence of people like you creates the policy that you now abuse.  Correct?
 
A: Look, we can argue about this all day long, but I will still take advantage of this offer simply because I can.  Goodbye!

I can think of other store policies like "no checks accepted" that result from a small but troublesome minority of duplicitous customers.

Would others like to name more?


Post 43

Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 7:31amSanction this postReply
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"I think we're in agreement, but the legalism of the term 'fraud' is what's blocking communication." Steven D.

If I'm not mistaken it was Theresa who introduced that word, and as I read her she wasn't intending to be taken literally, in the legal sense. In the legal sense, it probably isn't fraud, because of the policy, and (as others have pointed out) would be nearly impossible to prove anyway.

But, as Joe has argued clearly enough, it is deception and the intent to obtain a value while paying nothing in return, or nearly so. In the colloquial, and perfectly legitimate, sense that is fraud.

Rand uses the word in a similar sense here:

"Honesty is the recognition of the fact that the unreal is unreal and can have no value, that neither love nor fame nor cash is a value if obtained by fraud—that an attempt to gain a value by deceiving the mind of others is an act of raising your victims to a position higher than reality..."

and explains what Objectivism means by the term "honesty," where clearly she goes beyond saying that it doesn't consist solely in just refraining from lying.

Post 44

Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 8:37amSanction this postReply
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Luke, I thought you were on my side here! You write,
John's insights into the origins and nature of "no questions asked" return policies expose the circular reasoning of those who consider the "free rental" option ethical and not fraudulent.

Q: What are you doing?

A: I am buying a digital camera which I intend to use for a few days before returning.

Q: Why do you think you can do that ethically?

A: The store has a "no questions asked" return policy.

Q: Why does it have a "no questions asked" return policy?

A: It .... uh ... well ... to be quite honest, it encounters people like me who indulge in "free rental" under the guise of intending to purchase and keep, and it does not want to alienate the majority of honest but mistaken customers with "nosy" questions.
Check your premises. There's no "guise" here. The store's "no-questions asked return policy" means that the customer can return the merchandise for any reason whatsoever, which in turn means that the store sets no conditions on a return of the merchandise, other than its being returned in acceptable condition. The store does not require that the customer buy it with the "intention" of keeping it. Intentions are irrelevant in this context. The stores (implied) contract with its customers simply specifies that if the customer returns the merchandise, he return it in good condition.

Furthermore, you're assuming that the no-questions asked return policy exists because certain customers take unfair advantage of the store's policy (that the customer can return the merchandise if he doesn't like it) by indulging in free rental, but that's an assumption on your part. The store could very well have a no-questions asked return policy, simply to encourage people to buy the product even if they don't intend to keep it, because even people who don't intend to keep it might decide to do so after they get it home and find they like it.

It's not the customer's responsibility to second guess the reason for the store's return policy. He is responsible only for taking the store's policy at face value and abiding by the terms of the contract. As long as he does this, he is acting ethically.

- Bill

(Edited by William Dwyer on 1/16, 8:51am)


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Post 45

Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 9:04amSanction this postReply
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"The store could very well have a no-questions asked return policy, simply to encourage people to buy the product even if they don't intend to keep it, because even people who don't intend to keep it might decide to do so after they get it home and find they like it."

This is fantasy. We're talking about real people and real businesses here.

In any case, the customer's intentions are not irrelevant in a discussion of ethics. He is knowingly pretending to buy the item knowing he intends to return it. That's called dishonesty.
(Edited by Jeff Perren on 1/16, 9:09am)


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Post 46

Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 9:16amSanction this postReply
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Joe,

I agree with you that the customer who saunters up to the check-out counter to purchase goods (which he fully plans to use and then return) is acting deceitfully at that moment.  I agree that this is not only seeking the unearned, but being dishonest as well.  So, in terms of making a moral judgment call, I'm right there with you on this.

But this moral failing is not yet a crime.  The store made the sale and got the purchase price.  The store has not been victimized...yet.  But when the customer returns to the store a week later, having used the goods, and wants their money back, that is the point where the store is being deceived and defrauded out of their money. 

You placed the crime at a point where there has not yet been any fraud committed, merely the thought of doing so.  The only victim so far has been the soul of the perpetrator.  While the purchase may be disingenuous, the store nevertheless received value for value.  Consider this hypothetical:

Sally has been invited to attend the Academy Awards.  She wants to look stunning, but doesn't have anything appropriate in her closet and doesn't have the money to afford buying anything new.  She goes to a glamorous shop in Beverly Hills, sees all the extravagant fashions, and asks the store owner if they have a return policy.  With her credit card in hand, she decides to purchase a gorgeous gown, wear it to the Oscars, and return it the following day.
The moment that Sally decided to pursue this plan, I believe she has done harm to herself.  She has had to fake reality by pretending that she can afford something she can't.  When she handed the clerk her credit card, the store received every penny it had hoped to for that sale.  But Sally's sense of self-doubt and inadequacy increased right along with her credit card debt.  Now, continuing on with the story:

Sally couldn't wait to get home and model the gown for her husband.  But all her husband said when seeing the dress was, "How much was it?"  And when Sally told him the price, he turned white and wilted on the couch.  Sally explained that the price was no problem, because she was going to return it for a full refund.  He just shook his head in disbelief.  He looked right into her eyes and said, "You're willing to be dishonest just so that you can look good at the Oscars?  Who did I marry?"
This prompted Sally to do some soul-searching.  She came to see that her original plan was not an honorable one.  So, she made some phone calls and made a plan.  She realized that if she took on a second job for a month or so, she'd be able to pay off her credit card, and the dress would be hers.  She looked stunning at the awards show, proud of herself that she was wearing a dress she could call her own.  Weeks later, she and her husband went out to celebrate the fact that Sally had paid off the entire amount on her credit card.  And for that special celebratory night out, she wore her favorite dress!

Now, if Joe is correct that the criminal act is at the point of purchase, then Sally is guilty of fraud, even though she worked hard and paid for the dress.  If the crime was committed when she gave the clerk her credit card, it makes no difference that she never returned it.  To Joe, her deceitful pose at the boutique was the act of fraud.  It was her intention that counts as a crime, not her action. 

Joe, your example of the financial advisor is a good one.  He gives false information to a client.  He is guilty of a crime because of something he did.  In terms of conspiracy to commit murder, that too is an action.  Contemplating murder is not the same as creating a conspiracy to commit it.  Now, you might say that Sally's purchase of the dress was an action, too.  But it was a perfectly legal action: she paid for it.  Her only "crime" was a thought, a plan, an intention which she ultimately didn't carry out. 

Motives and intentions play a part in determining the nature of a crime, but thoughts in themselves are not crimes. 


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Post 47

Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 9:34amSanction this postReply
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Why the camera "renter's" behavior is at odds with the Objectivist ethics (and obviously so).


Can you envision John Galt acting as this person does?

[Yes, we could invent circumstances in which he might. He is destitute and has to have the camera to rescue Dagny from the villains. We're not talking about that sort of situation, but an everyday ordinary transaction.]

Is this person being honest?

No. He is obtaining the use of the camera, knowing he doesn't intend to keep it. That he may later change his mind is irrelevant at the time he undertakes the action.


Is the person in question being productive?

No. He is attempting to obtain the use of the camera for nothing, or nearly so.

Is the person in question being just?

No. He is evaluating the merchant as someone he can take advantage of, without offering a value in return. That he may later change his mind is irrelevant at the time he undertakes the action.

In this action likely to lead to pride?

Doubtful. Can one be proud of being dishonest, unjust, and a con artist?


Bill focuses heavily on the store's "no questions asked" policy. But this does not change the ethics of the camera "renter's" action (and character). If I pretend to like John Galt's sister in order to get her to sleep with me, knowing she is looking for a long-term relationship and not a one night stand, am I being ethical? Does it matter that she has a "no questions asked" policy of dating, or that she is willing to risk someone lying to her in order to enlarge her pool of possible long-term mates?

That the parties are behaving voluntarily in the case of the camera is acknowledged. No one is suggesting that legal action should be taken against either party. But there are, obviously, many voluntary transactions —— in the literal and metaphorical sense —— that are nonetheless immoral.



Post 48

Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 10:08amSanction this postReply
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I couldn’t rent something by presenting as buying it. I return things, a lot, at places like Home Depot. It’s a convenience that allows me to buy more than enough material to be sure I will have enough to finish my project, or to buy both variants of an item knowing one of them will be what I need and the other can go back. It seems abusive to utilize a liberal return policy for purposes other than intending a purchase. Intent To Purchase I take as the unstated ground-rule.

I hadn’t considered that the policies are as liberal as they are (“for any reason”) yet Bill’s argument still sounds like a patch to me.

I am interested in the ethics of negotiation, specifically, in this context, of the requirements of honesty. Joe’s post relies heavily on the role that deceit plays in making fraudulent the “buy”-just-to-rent scenario: “If he can only make the deal by keeping his intentions secret, it's not a proper trade.” Joe argues well for a position I would like to see well-argued, yet this opened a whole can of worms for me.

It seems to me that both sides of every negotiation lie with regard to their inner states including intentions, and especially their knowledge.

A dealer says, “I am not allowed to sell it for less than $X.” Later, he sells it to you for less than $X. A buyer says, “I am in no rush to buy a car,” knowing full well he must get this over with since he will lose his current car in 24 hours. Bluff and BS are expected by and from both sides.

Imagine you spot an old VW bug in a barn out in the country and stop to inquire about it. The owner appears surprised at your interest in the car so you realize he probably has a poor idea or no idea of its antique value. He gushes at your offer to buy it from him for $500 cash. You know it to be worth $10,000 at the auction next week. He inquires into your intentions. You say…what? “If he can only make the deal by keeping his intentions secret, it's not a proper trade.” And it is obviously so that you will make the trade at $500 only if your intentions are kept secret, implying it’s an improper trade. But this would seem to require educating your negotiant. How far does that go?

Is the car buyer with only 24 hours left allowed to lie about the fact that he wishes to conclude the negotiation in the next few minutes? May he say that he’s in no rush, has a few weeks to decide? The dealer’s posture could well be different, he may not wish to make a deal at particular price if he had access to the fact that the potential buyer is tired, out of time, and desperate to close a deal right now. Knowing this, the buyer lies about it. Is that fraudulent, though? We need a standard other than that the seller’s actions would be different if he had all the truth.

I once deceived a used car dealer into thinking that a negotiation had concluded in his favor, only to show up in two hours and continue negotiating. (I showed up with a bank cashier’s check for approx. 95% of what he expected.) The negotiation ended abruptly when he accepted the check, selling me the car. The outcome was happy for all and there was no deceit around the final trade (my check was real, I really bought the car, etc.,) but I did employ deceit in the negotiation. I had road tested the car and had been negotiating over the phone for days. I never said I would buy the car at his price. Rather, at a moment of good timing I let out a big sigh and said, “Whatever. I’ll see you in two hours.” I knew he took it to mean I was agreeing to his price. I knew I was altering his state, and hoping that the “I made another sale” euphoria would still be in control when I arrived.

Oddly, I was the more honest. He had said “no way we sell you that car for less than $X.” And he went on to sell it for 5% less than $X. He lied to me about his true break-points. I, on the other hand, had been telling him over and over and over, and telling him honestly, that I would never pay more than $o.95 * X.



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Post 49

Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 10:41amSanction this postReply
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Bill wrote:

Check your premises. There's no "guise" here. The store's "no-questions asked return policy" means that the customer can return the merchandise for any reason whatsoever, which in turn means that the store sets no conditions on a return of the merchandise, other than its being returned in acceptable condition. The store does not require that the customer buy it with the "intention" of keeping it. Intentions are irrelevant in this context. The stores (implied) contract with its customers simply specifies that if the customer returns the merchandise, he return it in good condition.


But Bill why do they have a "no questions" asked policy? Part of it could be they don't want the customer to feel hassled and have a pleasant customer service experience. A customer who genuinely doesn't want the product after realizing it's not what they desire can come back to the store, return it without any hassles, and feel good about doing business with that store in the future because they can feel confident in changing their minds about a product without any hassles. Certainly I grant you that a case can be made they are hoping the person renting the product for temporary use can change his mind, perhaps, but to what extent are they willing to entertain such customers? Would they be happy with such a customer perpetually buying and returning goods on any whim when they'd like to use the product but know they can just get their money back when they no longer need to use it? Do you know the cost involved with a returned product? But perhaps that's irrelevant, as the premise we're working on here is not that the customer may change his mind and keep the product, we're talking about a specific customer who had no intention of keeping it, but using it for a temporary period of time, so I think you're trying to change the conditions of the situation we are discussing.

And I'm curious what do you make of my citation of the Hampton Inn guarantee? Where if it is invoked three times in a year, and you never pay for a rented room any other time, you are denied any future business dealings with Hampton Inn because they deem the customer satisfied but dishonestly invoking the service satisfaction guarantee?

Or for that matter Macy's has also taken steps to prevent chronic returners from coming back to their store because they are deemed a liability instead of an asset. Macy's has been known to send letters to chronic returners telling them they are no longer welcome to shop at Macy's.

You have to consider there exists an ignorance on the part of the business that cannot accurately discriminate between customers that are honest or dishonest.

It's not the customer's responsibility to second guess the reason for the store's return policy. He is responsible only for taking the store's policy at face value and abiding by the terms of the contract. As long as he does this, he is acting ethically.


Bill I know why they have those return polices, I know the motivating factors behind them. I know it comes at a cost to the business when a product is returned, but they do this because of hoping a customer will come back again and purchase a product and keep it, or will speak positively about the store's pleasant customer service experience and spread positive word of mouth about the store in hopes it will attract more customers. What would you say to me then, knowing that, if I walked into the store, bought an expensive camera to use for just one event with the full intention of never keeping it? You are not recognizing the store can't differentiate between customers who may come back and buy a product and keep it in the future, or a customer who never had any desire to keep the product and knows they never had any desire to keep it, but instead use it for free. If the store did have this information, they would cease to do business with the latter type of customer. They can't simultaneously have a hassle-free return policy for good customers while ask questions to the bad customer "were you just renting this for free?" because they don't know which is which, and make a business decision it is better to take the losses because the benefit of not alienating good customers outweighs that cost.

Post 50

Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 11:31amSanction this postReply
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I think there is fraud where there is deceit with regard to what you are going to do or provide as your side of the trade. If you present something as good, knowing that it is broken, for example.

Renting by presenting yourself as buying qualifies because you deceive the seller as to what he is getting. He thinks he is getting a person whose mind is to make a purchase, a shot at a sale. In my Home Depot example, I regularly purchase three variants of an item because I am not confident which is the one I need. I know full-well that two thirds of the purchase is coming back, but even here the return policy facilitates a real sale.

I probably got the above from Joe’s most recent posts, so consider it as only me thinking aloud.



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Post 51

Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 11:35amSanction this postReply
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The large box stores have a “no questions asked” return policy because it works! More profits flow to the bottom line even in view of the abuse. It is simply part of their marketing strategy to generate sales, and the stores would probably loose market share if they changed their return policy.

The reasons the policy works are many and varied.

1.      There is an off chance that the consumer who has every intention of taking a few pictures then returning the high priced camera might change his mind and keep it.

2.      The customer’s conscious may get the better of him, and he may decide to keep it.

3.      The customer might spot something else in the store and purchase it.

4.      The big box stores understand that they are guaranteed to have not one, but two opportunities to sell the customer something--once when he picks the item up and again when he returns it.

5.      The customer may show the camera to a friend, and his friend might buy one.

6.      The customer may seek the advice of a sales clerk in the camera dept., which gives the sales clerk an opportunity to sell the customer something he really wants to keep.

7.      The goodwill factor, the store’s top of the mind recall percentage, and other marketing statistics improve when a “no questions asked” return policy is adopted.

8.      The list of reasons why the big box stores have a return policy of “no questions asked” are unending, and the marketing strategy is brilliant.

The big box stores have such enormous purchasing power they can and will return inventory items to their suppliers for whatever reason and simply deduct the cost of the return from their account payable. In addition, the suppliers know what’s going on, and they continue to do business with the big box stores.

The reality is, both the big retailer and the supplier try and build the cost of their return policy into their gross profit or operating costs. If the cost of returns is less than budgeted so much the better. If the cost of returns is larger than budgeted then there is a policy change. That may be the reason why the return date for electronics is often less than the return date for other good.

Smaller retail outlets don’t have the same clout with their suppliers, and often can’t afford to offer such a liberal return policy. If the smaller stores could afford such a policy many would adopt it.

The question is this. If a retailer adopts a “no questions asked” return policy knowing that a certain percentage of its customers will secretly purchase product with the intention of returning the product after using it, is it unethical for the store’s customers to take advantage of the policy? The answer is it is ethical for the customer to do so.

However, and this is what Joe is getting at, if a customer purchases a product under the terms and conditions of a “no questions asked” return policy, and:

  1. The customer is aware that the retailer expects the him to have a reasonable and initial intention of keeping the product;
  2. the customer’s intention when he purchased the product was to use it and return it;

then, I agree, the customer has acted in an unethical manner, for all of the reasons that Joe and a few others have mentioned.

Gordon


Post 52

Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 11:40amSanction this postReply
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Jon in your situation as well as mine as I do the same thing at Home Depot, building my house I have spent a great deal of money at Home Depot, I don't think you are I have any ethical dilemma here since Home Depot encourages people to buy a sample of each tile for instance, take it home and then decide which one to buy in larger quantities, (they make a killer sale that way!) and they've made a ton of money off of me, or buying more materials than needed just in case so you don't run out still means Home Depot made a killer sale off of you. But I would keep in mind Home Depot does factor the cost of returning an item into the product's price, as there is in my area a competing home supplies store called "United Builder's Supply" that is slightly cheaper than Home Depot but has a 10% restocking fee for any returned items. I have to wonder if that's why they are a little cheaper.

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Post 53

Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 11:48amSanction this postReply
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John,

Just return the UBS stuff to Home Depot. I thought you were Greek? Shit, a Frenchman has to teach you all this basic this stuff!?

Post 54

Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 11:49amSanction this postReply
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Gordan to a certain extent the variables you list generate the no-questions-asked return policy but you are assuming in each of those variables, the store can know which individual customer applies to any of the variables listed and thus you've covered all the bases by saying it is always ethical to return the product, I would say it is legal but not necessarily ethical. The company doesn't know whether a particular customers falls under one of the listed variables you gave, only that a great deal of their customers falls under one of the variables you listed as showing an asset rather than a liability, but that still doesn't get around the fact the store doesn't have enough information to discriminate against the customer that had no intention of ever keeping the product or even does so routinely at a loss to the store. You have to add another possibility:

x) Customer never had any intention of keeping the product, told his friends he's just doing it to rent the product even spreading this idea to other people, and this customer does so on a regular basis.

Do you think the store is happy to have customers like that? No, they just don't have a good enough way of knowing which customer fits this description. Hence there is a growing trend by national chains to start sending letters to chronic returners asking them to never come back.

Post 55

Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 11:51amSanction this postReply
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John,

Just return the UBS stuff to Home Depot. I thought you were Greek? Shit, a Frenchman has to teach you all this basic this stuff!?


LOL!! Sanction! You got me there! The only problem Home Depot will only give you a gift card at the clearance sale price of the item if you don't have a receipt.

:)

Post 56

Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 12:11pmSanction this postReply
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“Home Depot will only give you a gift card at the clearance sale price of the item if you don't have a receipt.”

Which gets me back into their store another day. Manipulative little bastards.



Post 57

Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 12:13pmSanction this postReply
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John, you asked,
And I'm curious what do you make of my citation of the Hampton Inn guarantee? Where if it is invoked three times in a year, and you never pay for a rented room any other time, you are denied any future business dealings with Hampton Inn because they deem the customer satisfied but dishonestly invoking the service satisfaction guarantee?

Or for that matter Macy's has also taken steps to prevent chronic returners from coming back to their store because they are deemed a liability instead of an asset. Macy's has been known to send letters to chronic returners telling them they are no longer welcome to shop at Macy's.
In that case, the store has set an explicit policy that the customer can recognize and consider. The customer can decide whether or not he wants to risk returning a product that he simply intended to use on a single occasion, since he may then find himself unable to return one that he had wanted to keep but on which he subsequently changed his mind. Or he can decide not to return a product for light or frivolous reasons, knowing that he may lose his right to return one for more serious reasons. He has a clear set of guidelines on which to base his decision.
Bill I know why they have those return polices, I know the motivating factors behind them. I know it comes at a cost to the business when a product is returned, but they do this because of hoping a customer will come back again and purchase a product and keep it, or will speak positively about the store's pleasant customer service experience and spread positive word of mouth about the store in hopes it will attract more customers.
Then why wouldn't that apply to customers who buy a camera just to use it once and then return it? Wouldn't they also speak positively about the store, telling others that they can return a product for any reason? You say that returning it comes as a cost to the business, but if the store allows such a policy, it must mean that the store considers the benefits to outweigh the costs. If it didn't, it wouldn't have the policy.

Also, what difference does it make to the store whether the customer buys the camera with no intention of returning it, uses it once and then discovers a better deal elsewhere and decides to return it, or buys it with the intention of using it only once and then returning it? The result is the same in either case. You're not saying, are you, that even if the store has a no-questions asked return policy, I'm morally obligated to keep the product unless I find that it's defective? And if you are not saying this, then under what conditions am I morally entitled to return it? Suppose I decide that I don't have the same use for it that I thought I did. Am I entitled to return it under those conditions? Suppose I decide that I can't afford it, and would like to spend my money on something else? There are any number of reasons why I might want to return the product. What makes some reasons ethical and others not? Why can't the store consider it a selling point that the customer is entitled to return the product for any reason, if such a policy attracts more business and increases the store's profits?

- Bill

Post 58

Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 12:54pmSanction this postReply
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Question for Bill:

If the store policy is "No Returns on Used or Damaged Goods"  would you then agree that an act of fraud has been committed by trying to pass off used merchandise as unused?

Question for Joe:

If the store policy is "Upon purchasing a product from us, feel free to use it and enjoy it.  If, for any reason whatsoever within one week of purchase, you wish to return the product, we will give you a full refund."  Is it still fraudulent and immoral to take them up on the offer?

I'm assuming that in the first example, there is fraud, and in the second example, there is not.  In terms of a "No Questions Asked" policy, I assume that Joe takes it to have the same meaning as the first example, while Bill takes it to imply the second.

Because I think the burden lies on the store to set its return policy, if they've chosen something as vague as "No Questions Asked," it leans more towards the second example than the first.  They were free to put stipulations in the return policy, and in failing to do so, have permitted customers to return products after using them.

It is nevertheless seeking the unearned.  But it doesn't amount to fraud, at least not in a legal sense.  For me, it's a case of immoral but not illegal.


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Post 59

Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 1:27pmSanction this postReply
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Bill

In that case, the store has set an explicit policy that the customer can recognize and consider. The customer can decide whether or not he wants to risk returning a product that he simply intended to use on a single occasion, since he may then find himself unable to return one that he had wanted to keep but on which he subsequently changed his mind. Or he can decide not to return a product for light or frivolous reasons, knowing that he may lose his right to return one for more serious reasons. He has a clear set of guidelines on which to base his decision.


Right, I have no disagreement with that assessment at all Bill but I'm not sure what relevance that has to what we're talking about? Obviously then the store never had the intention of just letting people rent things for free. Doesn't that enlighten the situation a little here? The policy wasn't intended to be a rent-free service, it was intended to generate sales and the fact that a business can't immediately differentiate between trash (that's what I refer to customers I've dealt with that try to be dishonest about not receiving satisfactory service and are just looking for a free lunch, they are simply just trash in my book) and genuinely honest sincerely dissatisfied customers.

Then why wouldn't that apply to customers who buy a camera just to use it once and then return it? Wouldn't they also speak positively about the store, telling others that they can return a product for any reason?


Yes, as I just outlined that myself, but it could also be a customer that tells his fellow friends who are also trash, hey go to Wal-Mart if you ever want to rent a camera for free. The problem is a store has a hard time differentiating between these two different types of customers.

You say that returning it comes as a cost to the business, but if the store allows such a policy, it must mean that the store considers the benefits to outweigh the costs. If it didn't, it wouldn't have the policy.


Right, again that is something I outlined myself so I'm not disagreeing with that.

Also, what difference does it make to the store whether the customer buys the camera with no intention of returning it, uses it once and then discovers a better deal elsewhere and decides to return it, or buys it with the intention of using it only once and then returning it?


Well wait a minute, you don't see a difference in that? First off most store have a match price guarantee and will refund the difference if a customer finds a better deal elsewhere, but more importantly the difference is the customer returning it because he discovered a better price elsewhere still had the intention of keeping the product if he liked it and there wasn't a better price, you're just putting on an additional qualifier here to render the original discussion we're having to be meaningless, again that's not what we're discussing, instead we're talking about just renting it temporarily free from cost with never having any intention of keeping it from beginning till end regardless of whether they see a cheaper camera elsewhere.

You're not saying, are you, that even if the store has a no-questions asked return policy, I'm morally obligated to keep the product unless I find that it's defective?


No I'm pretty confident I never said that. I'll re-post my comments:

Post 49

A customer who genuinely doesn't want the product after realizing it's not what they desire can come back to the store, return it without any hassles, and feel good about doing business with that store in the future because they can feel confident in changing their minds about a product without any hassles


Post 35

A store can't differentiate between someone who decides they don't want the product because the customer was in error in believing they wanted the product as opposed to people who just want the product for a short length of time but are not willing to pay for it and know they can take advantage of the store's ignorance.


So as you can see I always said if you decided you were in error in wanting the product, there's nothing unethical about returning it.

Bill you write:

And if you are not saying this, then under what conditions am I morally entitled to return it?


See above comments.

Suppose I decide that I don't have the same use for it that I thought I did.


Which would mean you were in error in thinking you desired it, no?

Am I entitled to return it under those conditions?


Since that is the same as realizing you were in error in desiring it, I would think yes.

Suppose I decide that I can't afford it, and would like to spend my money on something else?


Meaning you realized you didn't desire the product because of its price? Again, I think I adequately spelled out my case.

Why can't the store consider it a selling point that the customer is entitled to return the product for any reason, if such a policy attracts more business and increases the store's profits?


I'm sorry Bill did I ever say this doesn't attract more business and generate more sales? I believe I said in the following posts:

Post 49

They can't simultaneously have a hassle-free return policy for good customers while ask questions to the bad customer "were you just renting this for free?" because they don't know which is which, and make a business decision it is better to take the losses because the benefit of not alienating good customers outweighs that cost.


Post 35

what is going on here is the store is aware there are dishonest people, but they are aware they can't differentiate between honest and dishonest consumers, and thus they design a return policy so they they don't alienate honest customers and know they outnumber the dishonest customers, and a business decision is made to accept the losses because it outweighs the benefits.


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