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Post 80

Saturday, January 26, 2008 - 4:21pmSanction this postReply
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One should read a book which came out in the past year, called NonViolence..... it exposes the flaws in the notion expoused by the so-called 'imperialistic' crowd....

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Post 81

Sunday, January 27, 2008 - 7:42amSanction this postReply
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I'm not sure which is worse, the ridiculously simplistic, relativistic, flaw filled post 79, or the fact that it has received three Atlas icons.

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Post 82

Sunday, January 27, 2008 - 2:32pmSanction this postReply
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"Jim,

Are you using Kyrel's method to judge everyone here?

I don't know any Christians who defend all Christian tenets. I have yet to meet a Muslim who does not defend all Muslim tenets. Where are all of the Muslim Mark Steyns and Hitchens? Where are all of the "moderates?"

I often refer to the Christian bible as a suicide manual, while the Koran can be described as a throat slitters manual. Huge difference."

Teresa -- my intent was to note my disagreement with Kyrel's statements. My apologies if I used imprecise wording that could be interpreted as me collectively damning people here because of one individual's statements, because that certainly wasn't my intent. I'm used to the oftentimes manic, sloppy pace of posting on Reason.com, so it's a challenge to adapt to the more deliberative culture here and slow way down and carefully think through and peruse one's wording before posting, or deciding not to post at all.

I have noted that more than one person posting here seems to be supporting the Iraq war, and as a libertarian I disagree with those individuals (again, not Objectivists collectively). As a newbie to Objectivism, I am curious how this philosophy would allow preemptive war -- killing people, including innocent civilians, for potential harm you think a handful of a country's leaders might try to do, in acts which if carried out would most likely harm someone other than you, seems like a collectivist act incompatible with the individualistic philosophy in Ayn Rand's novels. I don't recall a single scene in her novels where any of her protagonists attacked someone preemptively -- if anything, her protagonists seemed to be almost inhumanly reluctant to react even when they were severely transgressed against.

As for your statement that you "have yet to meet a Muslim who does not defend all Muslim tenets", I would invite you to contact Ali, who posts frequently on Hit&Run and Grylliade.org and see if that statement matches with reality. H&R also ran a video a while back showing statements by this tweaked-out Muslim extremist and a peaceful Muslim moderate who was appalled by the extremist's philosophy.

Finally, both Christianity's and Islam's tenets are subject to interpretation -- they mean different things to different people. Try talking to a Mormon about their interpretation of the Trinity versus that of a Southern Baptist, and you'll see what I mean. From my discussions with the moderate Muslim mentioned above, some Muslim's interpretation of these texts could be seen by non-Muslims as basically disagreeing with the more violent-sounding tenets of their faith, even if in their minds they agree with the Koran's teachings in radically different ways than others. Perhaps that is rationalization on their part, perhaps it is taking the most peaceful interpretation possible of ambiguity.



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Post 83

Sunday, January 27, 2008 - 4:56pmSanction this postReply
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Mark

It seems to me that what John, and others like him, seek in their quest for cosmic justice is simply obedience imposed through physical force. For John and these others are deeply infatuated with the alleged efficacy of guns and military power to control the outcome of history, i.e. to control other men's thinking. They believe, of course, that aggressive violence employed to a noble end, "freedom", is virtuous.


Oh I love this one! The whole "I'm forcing people to live free" argument. The obvious fallacy here is that I want to see tyrants removed from power, i.e. the people who deny others their freedom as meaning I want to control men's thinking. So tell me Mark, how is it I advocate we force people to live free, which is an impossibility? How do I force someone to think freely by killing their oppressor? You can't force someone to be free from oppression, you can only remove the tyrant that prevents someone from being free. And what else can one call this philosophy of not wanting to overthrow your oppressor other than Pacifism? Should we talk to Castro and convince him to relinquish power? Maybe if we give a persuasive enough argument to the Iranian mullahs they'll decide to take a 180 degree turn and move their country towards a free society.

I'm also with Teresa, I can't believe his post got three Atlas icons. This really is a sad testament to the depravity of so many people that allegedly stand for freedom.

Robert:

One should read a book which came out in the past year, called NonViolence..... it exposes the flaws in the notion expoused by the so-called 'imperialistic' crowd....


Because removing a tyrant is imperialistic. Right I get it now. Justice is actually letting a criminal get away with his crimes. I see it now. Which Ayn Rand novel was that from?



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Post 84

Sunday, January 27, 2008 - 5:24pmSanction this postReply
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I overstepped somewhat in accusing John, and others who share his perspective, of seeking to command "obedience" from people through military adventuring. Although aggressive military adventuring requires the obedience of its citizen-subjects--through such devices as taxation, official intimidation of dissenters, the imposition of regulations by the national security state, the heightened risk of terrorist blowback, the burden of more debt, and the poison of more inflation--I don't want to suggest that John, and others who share his ideas, want to use force to order about or kill anyone who disagrees with them.

Clearly, in most areas of social life, those on this site who defend "aggressive military adventuring" both advocate and rely on peaceful and voluntary exchange which comprises the fabric of civilization. Certainly, no one here proposes imprisoning or shooting ideological opponents, or obliterating foreign populations only because they embrace irrational and dangerous cultural values, or pulling a gun and ordering the pizza delivery boy to his knees because his truck has a Clinton or Paul sticker on the bumper. But this is the impression I may have created with my broad-brush and hasty remark in post 79. If I did give this impression, I apologize.

My point is much narrower. An aggressive military adventure is one prosecuted for purposes outside of narrowly defined "defense". Of course, why the narrow definition, as opposed to a broader one, ought to restrict foreign policy is a big issue best left for another day. But even so, there is no question that the National Security State advocated by many here requires coerced obedience for its funding and execution. Moreover, the States that get targeted by our government are those states that refuse to cooperate with the policy demands and long-range plans for their region imposed by American enforcers abroad. So, for example, Pakistan and India, which refused to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, are armed with nukes and receive plenty of American aid. No sanctions are imposed on these nations; no speeches are made to the U.N. about their military activities, or about their harboring terrorists. In contrast, Iraq and Iran each have had the potential to become a regional power in the oil-rich Middle East. So as potential threats to our government's "running things" in the Middle East, those states are targeted as "terrorist sponsors", or as contemporary reincarnations of Nazi Germany, or as lethal military threats to the United States. Meanwhile, Saudi Arabia, home to the 911 hijackers, and other states that comply with American "guidance" are made US protectorates. Impoverished Afghanistan has no oil, but it lies in a crucial geographical position necessary to the building of a transcontinental oil pipeline. Prior to the invasion, a consortium of oil companies had planned the pipeline and had engaged in prolonged negotiations with Afghan authorities for a right-of-way across Afghanistan. The negotiations failed, but immediately following the invasion (as I am sure I read somewhere) construction of the pipeline got underway. (This is crony capitalism, not free enterprise.)  

In this sense, aggressive military force is used to extract obedience from people, including Americans, foreign populations, and the states that rule them. Those who argue for Pax Americana wind up defending this practice.


Post 85

Sunday, January 27, 2008 - 6:45pmSanction this postReply
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Mark Humphrey's last post is a big long non-sequiter. It is not necessary that a nation to use a foreign policy that is in accordance with it's long term national interests must mean the rights of its citizens must be subverted. Quite the contrary, it is in the interests of those citizens that a foreign policy be used that protects their rights to trade freely with other nations and challenge foreign threats. This is in service to their rights, not against them. Self-Defense and the loss of liberty are not mutually inclusive. By any rational measure we are more free and prosperous today than ever before because of a foreign policy (albeit definitely flawed and many times an inconsistent foreign policy, but I am arguing more for philosophical principles) that served our interests.

Although aggressive military adventuring requires the obedience of its citizen-subjects--through such devices as taxation,


Yet even during times of peace we have high taxation. Ergo this is a non-sequiter.

official intimidation of dissenters,


Totally laughable considering the unprecedented levels of free speech we have. The very fact you are free to criticize such a foreign policy without fear from your government completely negates this argument.

the imposition of regulations by the national security state,


If you mean unconstitutional acts of the NSA wiretapping and parts of the Patriot Act, those also are not necessary in fighting Islamo-fascism. Not only are those acts/legislation being challenged by the courts but have come under major scrutiny by the press. But that's besides the point as those measures were unnecessary.

the heightened risk of terrorist blowback,


And yet blowback can occur even without aggressive military action as has been evidenced by the Muslim riots in France and the riots as a result of Denmark's Mohammed cartoon. I suppose Denmark had it coming to them for allowing their citizens to think and express themselves freely.

the burden of more debt, and the poison of more inflation-


Both have occurred during times of peace. Again a non-sequiter.

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Post 86

Sunday, January 27, 2008 - 7:25pmSanction this postReply
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On Blowback


Terror Plot Foiled
http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/016771.php


"...the fourteen men arrested plotted to hit transportation centers in Spain, Portugal, France, and Germany...

"What do Spain, Portugal, France, and Germany have in common? None of them belong to our fighting coalition in Iraq. None of them contribute combat troops to the hot zones in Afghanistan, either. In fact, only Spain among these nations ever did contribute combat troops, in Iraq, and they withdrew them after the bombings in Madrid in March 2004. It seems that retreat didn't keep the jihadis from targeting Spain again."

So much for "leave them alone and they'll leave us alone."

It gets tiresome to expose the same errors over and over again. [Aside... I can't wait for the revisionist explanation for why the Spanish, French, Portuguese, and Germans are really encouraging this sort of activity because of.... etc, etc. I always find such arguments highly enlightening because they instruct me in how people who think 180 degrees the opposite of me, yet assert they advocate reason and freedom, form their opinions.]

Post 87

Monday, January 28, 2008 - 4:03amSanction this postReply
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 As a newbie to Objectivism, I am curious how this philosophy would allow preemptive war -- killing people, including innocent civilians, for potential harm you think a handful of a country's leaders might try to do, in acts which if carried out would most likely harm someone other than you, seems like a collectivist act incompatible with the individualistic philosophy in Ayn Rand's novels. I don't recall a single scene in her novels where any of her protagonists attacked someone preemptively -- if anything, her protagonists seemed to be almost inhumanly reluctant to react even when they were severely transgressed against.

Jim -

Rand wrote more non-fiction than fiction. I suggest you read more of that. This site is riddled with posts regarding Rand's take on how good should deal with evil. This is the larger picture that libs ignore.  Her second Donahue interview, readily available on YouTube, gives a good outline of this. Rand was further from pacifism than you're giving her credit for.  

I know how easy it can be to put words into Rand's mouth when you're not aware of her other critical ideas.  Be aware of them to get a better view.    


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Post 88

Monday, January 28, 2008 - 6:12amSanction this postReply
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What is your proof that the US killed 100,000 people in invading Afghanistan?  What a complete load of bullshit.

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Post 89

Monday, January 28, 2008 - 9:05amSanction this postReply
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Teresa -- thanks for your reference to the Ayn Rand Donahue interview.  I'll check it out.  Any other clips or texts you would recommend I check out as a starter course in Objectivism?

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding where you were going with your post -- are you saying that Ayn Rand explicitly advocated for preemptive war?  Do you think preemptive war is consistent with Objectivism?  If so, how do you reconcile that with the Non-Initiation of Force principle?

I'm not a pacifist, at least not as many people define the term.  I feel the Revolutionary War, WWII, and the war against the Taliban in Afghanistan were all justifiable reactions to someone harming people living within what are now the U.S. borders, even if I disagree with much of the conduct and means of financing of the latter two wars.  I don't think any of the other wars, large or small, our country has fought were justified according to my personal philosophy.  If you think other wars were justified, perhaps you could name them and say how U.S. citizens were aggressed against, thus justifying us starting or entering the war.

Again, thanks for your help, and I apologize in advance if I've misconstrued what you were getting at.  (OK, engaging in preemptive pacifism there.)  ;)


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Post 90

Monday, January 28, 2008 - 12:53pmSanction this postReply
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Evil has won more often than good. For the better part of the 100,000 year existence of humanity brutal, totalitarian rule was the norm, not the exception. Islam dominated 1/3 of the world for centuries, the Soviet Union killed 100 million plus people in a century's time before its demise, half of the world today is a brutal totalitarian hell hole. I am optimistic it is getting better but simply just being a beacon of hope and progress for the rest of the world has historically done squat to advance the cause of freedom. It took violent action to remove fascists from power. Not simply just exposing them for the intellectual frauds that they are. Now intellectually exposing them as frauds is certainly important, it serves to get people on board with you to help you fight.


Funny, that Mark highlights all the horrors that the most brutal governments and rulers of the world have committed, pays bland lip service to freedom and justice, and then proceeds to argue that a free nation has no business getting involved with the affairs of any other nation unless it is explicitly and directly attacked. Had the world not been so full of capitulation and moral relativism for the past 50 years, the Soviet Union would have killed far fewer people. Had it abided by the idiotic foriegn policy 'bury your head in the sand' prescriptions of isolationist libertarians like Mark here, the Soviet Union / Chinese communist force would have spread throughout the asian penninsula like wild fire, and then ultimately consumed most of the world before turning it's attention to the US. It did, after all, invade more than 1/3rd of the nations of the world, and was the first nation in the history of the planet with the explicit goal of overthrowing every other nation on the planet. The whole time, you capitulators and isolationists would be crying "well, they didnt attack us yet, only everyone else"

Need you wait until a bullet is literally flying at your head before you act in self defense? Is self defense, by defintion *only* 'reactionary' or can legitimate acts of self defense be pro-actionatary? Would you stand by while your neighbors wife is raped and murder and chant "well, it's not MY wife, so why should I care"

ANY assault on any persons freedom ANYWHERE in the WORLD is an assault on the VERY CONCEPT of Freedom. Allowing an enemy of freedom to become entrenched anywhere in the world, and to grow in strength, to dominate much of the worlds energy supplies, and promulgate murderous terrorism in an age of rapid technological growth, is short sighted and mind numbingly stupid, and I am hard pressed to see how otherwise allegedly intelligent individuals seriously advocate such a thing as being in any persons rational long term best interest.

Advocates of Freedom, and nations which are based on the idea of freedom, must at all times act in the most rational long term manner and at all times deal the best blow they can against the worse enemy they face.


It seems to me that what John, and others like him, seek in their quest for cosmic justice is simply obedience imposed through physical force


Such thinking is completely nonsensical, and people like Mark here love to charge advocates of promulgating real freedom in the world with "forcing freedom on others" What a laughably rediculous sentiment, freedom, is, by defination (in the political context) THE ABSENCE OF COERCION, how is it we can FORCE someone to be ABSENT OF FORCE. The only thing you can ever do is prevent others from forcing someone to do something against their will. Mark, and others like him, make this out to be some form of imperialistism, negating the fact that whatever definition of freedom they are operating on which makes this statement sensible is a completely useless definition.

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Post 91

Monday, January 28, 2008 - 1:03pmSanction this postReply
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Jim said:

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding where you were going with your post -- are you saying that Ayn Rand explicitly advocated for preemptive war? Do you think preemptive war is consistent with Objectivism? If so, how do you reconcile that with the Non-Initiation of Force principle?


You can not explicitly advocate a pre-emptive war without the context surrounding it. Was Iran's pre-emptive strike against Iraq justified, simply because it was pre-emptive? Was Israel's attack of Egypt as Egypt's armies were massing at the border justified?

Pre-emptive war is not intrinsically just nor unjust, its like asking "is it right for me to hit someone before he hits me" depends on the context. In most cases, no, but if he has proceeded down a line of people, punching one after the other, as the next person in line do you actually need to wait until his fist is flying at you? Do you need to wait until it makes contact?

Mark and others here have not worked out a clear definition of self defense, they think that Iraq must have a battleship steaming up the hudson to be considered 'attacking' us. Or that the Soviet Union would have needed to launch a physical invasion into the US before we acted to thwart the communist threat. If the US had explicitly adopted the principle of actually waiting to be attacked before acting to oppose and contain communism wherever it went, the Soviet Union would have simply taken over every single other country while excplicitly not bothering us, until we posed no real threat.

Similiarly, in an age of nuclear weapons and bio terrorism, waiting for a nation to send a warship steaming up your ports to act in self defense is completely idiotic.

Post 92

Monday, January 28, 2008 - 2:34pmSanction this postReply
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While Theresa is right (#87) that Rand's non-fiction (along with serious thinking-through on the reader's part) is the best place to learn her ideas, she did treat a situation like this in the play Think Twice, a minor item in the canon, and she seems to think pre-emptive killing by private citizens could be justified in the right conditions.
(Edited by Peter Reidy on 1/28, 2:36pm)


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Post 93

Monday, January 28, 2008 - 4:57pmSanction this postReply
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Pre-emptive war is not intrinsically just nor unjust, its like asking "is it right for me to hit someone before he hits me" depends on the context. In most cases, no, but if he has proceeded down a line of people, punching one after the other, as the next person in line do you actually need to wait until his fist is flying at you? Do you need to wait until it makes contact?

If someone was foolish enough to pull such a stunt, I imagine some of the intended victims of this transgression would run away, others would swing back, others with concealed carry weaponry would pull it out and take aim and possibly fire, others would go fetch the security guards, and others would call the police on their cell phone.  Assuming that the transgressor was neither arrested nor completely incapacitated by the beatdown others had given him or her by time they got near me -- and assuming that I hadn't simply concluded that whatever object I had gotten into the line to purchase wasn't such an urgently needed purchase, and thus left for a store with better security -- in that case, I would step out of the line, find some solid heavy object, heft it, and announce in a loud voice that they had bloody well better leave me alone because I was ready to tear them a new one if they messed with me.

What I wouldn't do is go rushing up and shoving other people out of the way, volunteering to be the second in line to be aggressed against, and trying to protect a lot of strangers perfectly capable of defending themselves, assuming they weren't S&M buffs eagerly looking forward to the abuse.

But that's just me.


Post 94

Monday, January 28, 2008 - 6:20pmSanction this postReply
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"If you think other wars were justified, perhaps you could name them and say how U.S. citizens were aggressed against, thus justifying us starting or entering the war." Jim H.

"War" can be a relative term, but just to name one military action off the top of my head -- and very near the beginning of the Republic, I would name Jefferson's sending ships to free the sea lanes from the 18th century jihadists.

Then (my memory is weak here), there was the 1812 naval action against the British.

Many of the U.S. actions against the natives across the continent were justified, though some were not.

Then, later, there was the action against the Mexican government in Texas at a place called the Alamo.

Then, much later, I'd say (while knowing only a tiny amount about it) that T. Roosevelt's pursuit with the Rough Riders. (I'm on shaky ground and unsure about this one.)

In fact, though my knowledge of the subject is spotty, I'd bet a dollar that 95% of military actions taken by the U.S. government up until Vietnam (though Korea was a very mixed bag) could be justified in the name of self-defense of U.S. citizens or (of secondary but still high importance) acting to assist a valid ally.

I leave it as an exercise for the interested reader to answer the second (and admittedly more difficult and important) question of how U.S. citizens were aggressed against (which is itself a somewhat loose and potentially misleading criteria).

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Post 95

Monday, January 28, 2008 - 6:30pmSanction this postReply
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"What I wouldn't do is go rushing up and shoving other people out of the way, volunteering to be the second in line to be aggressed against, and trying to protect a lot of strangers perfectly capable of defending themselves..." Jim H.

And perhaps neither should you (though you would be justified in doing so). But suppose you were a policeman?

There's a strong undercurrent in your posts that suggests that -- unless you personally (or others) have been 'aggressed against' -- defensive actions are unjustified. That's a dubious premise.

Self-defense and, by extension, the actions of officials to act in the stead of others, is justified when individual rights are violated. That can take many forms -- "that," here, being both the form of violation and the self-defense action taken in response.

I sense a tinge of the "NIOF" principle at work in your thinking. Is this a valid summary of your position? I.e. that one should rigidly adhere to the NIOF in making decisions about when to act?

Post 96

Tuesday, January 29, 2008 - 1:19amSanction this postReply
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Jeff -- you make some interesting points about whether or when one is entitled to act in defense of someone else, if you can reasonably ascertain that your remaining neutral will likely result in harm to you in the future. Let me try to clarify my POV:

The NIOF principle seems a bit fuzzy to me here, because while you're always justified in defending yourself, it could be construed in some circumstances as some of that horrible, horrible altruism if you jump to the defense of others who are the victims of the initiation of force.

I think the key words in the initial paragraph above are "reasonably" and "likely", since pretty much every war can be justified by both sides, or at least rationalized, by some creative stretching of these two concepts. Hitler tried to justify invading Poland by dressing up German soldiers in Polish uniforms and having them do some minor damage as a pretext for selling the invasion of Poland, and I imagine a lot of German civilians either bought this fabrication, or at least turned a blind eye to the likely flaws in this story because it was in their immediate perceived interest to do so.

So, unless Objectivism is to be used as a justification for any and all wars, I would suggest that extreme skepticism and conservatism be used in whether to employ force on behalf of others, that one should not be afraid of thoroughly erring on the side of caution in engaging in force, and that this should be an individual decision to take action, not a collective decision. And, since wars are one of the most empowering events imaginable for collectivism, people who value individualism should hold virtually all government-run warfare as a violation of their values, and thus something to be opposed unless it's almost crystal clear that your individual values would be harmed by your inaction. And above all, even the worst aggression should not an excuse for forcing others in your country to participate against their will. Everyone should decide for themselves what is right.

To illustrate from WWII again -- the Japanese bombing Pearl Harbor, while certainly an act of aggression, should not have automatically caused people to think that they personally needed to get involved, much less force their neighbors to get involved. The groupthink of "it's our nation that's at war, and thus everyone must be collectively mobilized for its prosecution" was what allowed that son-of-a-bitch Roosevelt to use conscription to build armies; to imprison loyal Americans of Japanese and German ancestry in prison camps; to impose rationing; to knowingly lie to people via propaganda; and to impose a blizzard of other socialistic policies on top of the rubbish he inflicted on us in the 1930s. War is the health of the state -- it should not be entered into lightly, or even when it seems fairly probable that your values might be threatened.

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Post 97

Tuesday, January 29, 2008 - 3:53amSanction this postReply
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To illustrate from WWII again -- the Japanese bombing Pearl Harbor, while certainly an act of aggression, should not have automatically caused people to think that they personally needed to get involved, much less force their neighbors to get involved.

Wow, Jim.  If something like that "shouldn't" compel people to act, I can't think of anything that would.  I'm trying to understand your view of human nature in general. Is it that we're all like grazing cattle, happily munching away regardless of what's going on around us?


Post 98

Tuesday, January 29, 2008 - 4:23amSanction this postReply
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Jim,

I would also recommend www.importanceofphilosophy.com as a good overview of Objectivism.
Ethan

(Edited by Ethan Dawe on 1/29, 4:24am)


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Post 99

Tuesday, January 29, 2008 - 6:41amSanction this postReply
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Come to think of it, Rand did take up the question of pre-emptive military action in one of her essays - "Collectivized 'Rights'" as memory serves.  She said, as Plato, Locke and the writers of the Declaration of Indepencence had said before her, that governments forfeit their legitimacy by not meeting minimal standards of humaneness, which she then spelled out.  (Comparison of these different authors' lists would make a good dissertation topic.)  From there she went on to say that such states give up the expectation of peaceful respect from other countries just as they give up such expectation their citizens.
Such forfeiture of legitimacy, Rand said, is not a sufficient condition for one country to take action against another, but nothing in the nature of rights rules it out.


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