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Post 60

Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 7:21pmSanction this postReply
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John A' wrote:

...we need a concrete position that says what [we] are going to do about Islamo-Fascism, [since] simply just hating Islam isn't going to stop Islamo-Fascists from attacking the West. What actions do you propose?
Actually -- openly hating their guts will decimate them. Or worse.

These silly-twit dolts and childish monsters desperately need our moral approval. These secret and justified self-haters practically can't live without it. The moment we semi-good guys toss a small amount of open honest loathing and public moral abomination their way they'll change their character radically. They'll come crawling to us like an accidentally stepped-on puppy. They'll pitifully beg for our attention, forgiveness, and approval.

But I'll bet not one Objectivist in a hundred understands this. (And not one regular person in a million.) 

As the Muslim losers and insects desperately gasp and grasp for the even tiniest hint of friendship from us -- their GODS by their standards -- we'll be overwhelmingly tempted to give it. This we must not do.

We should only give them our moral sanction when they earn it. And this will take a long time, at best. But we need to just let them suffer for decades -- as they deserve. One thing is certain: they will work unceasingly hard to get back in our good graces. They'll probably create a kind of mega-Reformation which will put the 1600s Christian one to shame.

But the key to all of this is relentless bitter personal hatred.  
  
And pray note that not a bit of this policy is cruelty or personal meanness or (uhg!) "tough love" or some sort of psychological trick or some other rhetorical or personal con on our part. It's an idealistic and practical technique called JUSTICE.

And it works just about every time. Such is the nature of principle and moral rectitude. The current world-wide foreign policy of pragmatism and Realpolitik "understanding" and political slickness and diplomatic chicanery and PC and multi-culti sweetness and Christian-style turn the other cheek of "Islam is a great religion of peace which has been hijacked" is a pure disaster for American and the West.  


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Post 61

Wednesday, October 31, 2007 - 10:26pmSanction this postReply
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So Kyrel, you propose we feel an emotion, hatred, to combat Islamic terrorism. Somehow I don't think that will decimate them. Declaring war on an abstraction has little meaning and I suspect it's just something that "feels good" to say.

Again, does it mean;

-trying to spread the ideals of freedom and democracy in the middle east by removing the tyrants that do everything they can to prevent that?

-extinguishing every single soul that identifies themselves as Muslim, i.e. genocide?

-launching a war against Iran or another Islamic state?

-talking to Muslims and trying to convince them to abandon their religion?

My niece hates caramel candy, so she doesn't eat them. Nazis hated the Jews, and tried to kill them all. So an emotion like "hate" has no meaning if given no context. We certainly relate to that word as any human being can associate with that emotion, but concretely it can mean wildly different things.





Post 62

Thursday, November 1, 2007 - 12:57pmSanction this postReply
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Speaking of Emotionalism

John, I assume you have read Zantonavitch's calls for rape and his use of the term sand-n*ggers to describe Iranians.  If not, see his his words here and here if you care.  Kyrel is an ugly troll.



Post 63

Thursday, November 1, 2007 - 2:36pmSanction this postReply
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It really is absurd and unfair to to lump all Muslims together. For example, many pro athletes--such as Kareem Abdul Jabbar, and Hakeem Oloujawon, and Az Hakim--are Muslims, and they don't at all fit the negative stereotype associated with Islam. In fact, I, a Jew, shoot pool with and periodically hang out with a local retail rug merchant who is a Muslim. He hates radical Islam, and smokes, drinks, and chases women.

Just as mainstream Christianity isn't about to dry up and blow away, the mainstream Islam religion isn't going to disappear any time soon. That being the case, maybe the best thing we can realistically hope for in the forseeable future is for some Joel Osteen Muslim types to come along and preach a New Age-type message that emphasizes personal growth, tolerance, and compassion instead of fire and brimstone, and hate. It ain't Objectivism, but it would really help make the world a more copacetic place.  


Post 64

Thursday, November 1, 2007 - 8:07pmSanction this postReply
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In regarding Islam, perhaps another person's observations would be of value ---

Ilana Mercer, who grew up in the Middle-East, rejects the “religion of peace” appellation. “Our adventurous foreign policy might be a necessary precondition for Muslim aggression but it is far from a sufficient one,” she argues. The reason why “Muslims today are at the center of practically every conflict in the world—and were slaughtering innocent, pacifist Jews in Israel well before the Jewish state was a figment in the fertile mind of Theodor Herzl”—can be found in the Qur’an, she states.

“The Muslim holy book,” moreover, “doesn’t brook interpretation or reformation, because, as the Islamic tradition has it, the Qur’an is not Mohammed's word; it is God’s eternal word, seen as something sent from Heaven, never to be adapted or altered,” Mercer explains.

“The Qur’an counsels conquest, not coexistence, especially in its later edicts, which override the earlier ones,” she observes. In an essay for The New Individualist, Mercer concludes that, if anything, “Osama bin Laden has heeded, not hijacked, Islam.” In the same piece she also argues that “[t]he Quran’s ruthless particularism runs counter to the universal concepts of justice and love of the Hebrew and Christian bibles.”

Naïve Westerners, who’ve been raised to believe The Other is just like them, don’t understand Islam and its adherents. Or, for that matter, the meaning of “Taqiyya—the seldom-discussed Islamic practice of lying to non-Muslims in order to win political battles and protect Islam.” As Mercer demonstrates, media “malpractitioners” uphold “this Scheherazade-worthy charade.”

 

 

 

Now - under these notes of the nature of  Islam, how then to justify those who claim 'moderacy' in that religion - especially since in dealing with Infidels, it is quite permissable to lie and cheat to get the Islamist way - and ALL non-muslims are Infidels....

(Edited by robert malcom on 11/01, 8:09pm)


Post 65

Friday, November 2, 2007 - 8:01amSanction this postReply
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John -- I think that all of the concrete answers to your questions can be found in Post 0 -- which began the whole discussion.

As for the open and direct expression of rational and just hatred not being decimating to the lowly, my recent experience on YouTube suggests otherwise. In case you're not familiar, Youtube currently seems to be a redoubt of Islam and jihadism -- and almost enemy territory. But I approach Muslims there exactly as I describe above.

My only real weapons are truth and virtue. Also their own repudiated, but not entirely gone, interior goodness. I tell the Muslims exactly what I think about them, and exactly how I feel about them. This cows them just about every time. Not all at once, naturally -- but rather quickly.

My intent and secret weapon -- believe it or not -- is to tell the precise and complete truth about moderate and normal Islam. Nothing more, nothing less, and nothing else. Then I render my moral judgement and register my true feelings -- all based upon justice and virtue.

The almost invariable result (eventually) is they try to convince and reassure me not all Muslims are thus -- altho' a great many certainly are, and they deeply regret that this is so. They also say they're sorry I feel the way I do, and they think I'm a truly good person (in their judgement), and they hope that I go in peace.

Often enough they also claim that I'm only describing the radicals and extremists, as well as the mistaken and sham Muslims. All of these, they vigorously inform me, they hate worse than I do.

But I don't bite. No hint of friendship is forthcoming.

I make very clear that I think standard and mainstream Islam is raw evil, and that I have absolutely no problem with the radicals, extremists, fundamentalists, and Islamists. I only hate the guts of the GOOD Muslims and the TRUE Muslims.

After which they give up and run away. But not before they assure me they're very sorry, and I'm a great guy, and they hope I have a very happy life.

For those who don't believe this, go to YouTube, (or anywhere else) and try it -- just once.        


Post 66

Friday, November 2, 2007 - 3:32pmSanction this postReply
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So Kyrel, you propose we tell Muslims they are evil. As you gave an example of one such Muslim you spoke to and you told him he was evil. And apparently as Ted points out one must use racial epithets to combat Islamo-Fascism.

And from your original post it sounds like something else:

The truth is this thought-system and this group of people is as black as anything that has ever existed in the history of the world. For Westeners to live and thrive, Islam and Muslims need to be extirpated from the family of man.


The last sentence sounds like genocide. Am I mistaken? If yes can you clarify?



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Post 67

Friday, November 2, 2007 - 4:03pmSanction this postReply
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On this whole "War on Islam" thing, what if we changed the context for an analogy.  World War II.  Nazi Germany.  Who are we at war with?  Are we at war with Germany?  Are we at war with the Germans?  Are we at war with fascism?

Or perhaps it can be rephrased as a war on the organization, a war on the people in that organization, or a war on anyone who believes in the theory behind that organization.  Certainly we didn't attempt to wipe out facism from the earth.  Nor did we try to kill all the Germans.  We were attacking the organization (the government), and only because that organization was violent. 

If you buy this, how about Islam.  It shouldn't be a war on the ideology, or even a war to exterminate all the people.  It should be to crush the organization that promotes violence.  If people want to call themselves Muslims and live in peace, we shouldn't wage actual war on them.  It's only because of the violence that we attack.  The goal should be to stop the violence.

Now it's not as easy to identify the target in this case.  You've got the Nazi Goverment in WWII, a clearly identified group who controls everything from the top down.  It's easy to point at the violent organization itself, and even name it.  But with Islam, it's more mixed.  There's no clean hierarchy.  There are lots of little hierarchies, sometimes fighting each other, sometimes working together.  The thread that connects them is Islam, but that's a poor identifier because there are some peaceful Muslims as well.

But we can't simply surrender because it's difficult to name our enemies.  So people try different things.  We get a War on Terror, a War on Islam, a War on Islamo-fascists, War on Fundamentalist Islam,  or whatever else.  What we're really at war with is violent Islam.

And of course, intellectuals can talk about being in an intellectual war against Islam in general, as the roots of violence in the ideology are not something that's easily separated from the rest of it.  But that should be understood as a different kind of war.


Post 68

Friday, November 2, 2007 - 4:17pmSanction this postReply
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We didn't wipe out fascism because it is the flip side of the socialist coin - the practical implimentation of socialism, which would have turned the tables on a still-to-many 'beloved idea', exposing it for the abject evil notion it is and always has been......

Post 69

Friday, November 2, 2007 - 7:07pmSanction this postReply
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Joseph thank you for getting at the heart of the issue.

But we can't simply surrender because it's difficult to name our enemies. 
Of course we shouldn't. I think Islamo-Fascism is the most accurate label thus far. It clearly defines who it is that is the target of our attack. Muslims who seek the destruction of the west either in its entirety or partially. My complaint was that it seems far too easy to rally around an abstraction without having to morally commit to any concrete action. I have on numerous occasions defended the continued war in Iraq and have gotten a fair share of flak for that but never a good concrete or any concrete action to counter my position other than withdrawel.

Robert:

We didn't wipe out fascism because it is the flip side of the socialist coin - the practical implimentation of socialism, which would have turned the tables on a still-to-many 'beloved idea', exposing it for the abject evil notion it is and always has been......
If only that were always the case. Historically that actually has rarely been the case. Evil has won more often than good. For the better part of the 100,000 year existence of humanity brutal, totalitarian rule was the norm, not the exception. Islam dominated 1/3 of the world for centuries, the Soviet Union killed 100 million plus people in a century's time before its demise, half of the world today is a brutal totalitarian hell hole. I am optimistic it is getting better but simply just being a beacon of hope and progress for the rest of the world has historically done squat to advance the cause of freedom. It took violent action to remove fascists from power. Not simply just exposing them for the intellectual frauds that they are. Now intellectually exposing them as frauds is certainly important, it serves to get people on board with you to help you fight. But do we have a problem of convincing the West Islamo-Fascism is an evil idealogy? Is Kyrel's suggestion of just being mean to Muslims we come across actually productive action?


Post 70

Wednesday, November 7, 2007 - 7:33amSanction this postReply
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This might put post-WWII into perspective......

http://www.mises.org/story/2745


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Post 71

Wednesday, November 7, 2007 - 9:49amSanction this postReply
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No Robert, that article gives no perspective.

Rothbard's view on foreign policy is typical of naive isolationists. Filled with conspiracy theories, non-sequitur of linking Presidential Constitutional powers to that of national self-defense, and making the argument that combating evil abroad must mean the "loss of liberty at home". Yet as I have pointed out in previous posts, one can favor self-defense while favoring liberty at home. The two are not mutually inclusive.

From the article in which Rothbard quotes Garret:

We are no longer able to choose between peace and war. We have embraced perpetual war…. Wherever and whenever the Russian aggressor attacks, in Europe, Asia, or Africa, there we must meet him.


When was this article written? The perpetual war with the Soviet Union ended in 1989. Some perpetual war!

Note also the ridiculous implication that the United States was always at a state of peace before the New Deal? Did Rothbard forget the War of 1812, Mexican-American War, Civil War, War with Native Indian tribes, Spanish-American war, World War 1, all occurred before the New Deal? If this is Rothbard's definition of perpetual war, that of wars that occurred after the New Deal, is there any distinction he can make where the United States had perpetual peace? Or does Rothbard think right from the birth of this nation it was an Imperial power only interested in conquest?

Taken from Rothbard's article:

The soldier replies that the war was "good and just," that "we had to stop Communist aggression and the enslavement of people by dictators." Conscience asks him, "Did you kill these people as an act of self-defense? Were they threatening your life or your family? Were they on your shores, about to enslave you?"


Funny that I should wait to defend my family at the very moment just before they would be enslaved. As if I need to wait to shoot back at a criminal waving a gun of which he has already killed several of my neighbors, and only when he actually fires it at my direction? Rothbard's view, like many libertarian isolationist's view of the moral case for self-defense, is childishly naive.

And this:

Harper then added that Russia was supposed to be the enemy, because our enemy was Communism.

But if it is necessary for us to embrace all these socialist-communist measures in order to fight a nation that has adopted them — because they have adopted these measures — why fight them? Why not join them in the first place and save all the bloodshed?


As I said previously, one can favor self-defense, while favoring liberty at home. This is a bogus non-sequitur. It is not necessary to embrace socialist-communist measures to fight communism.




(Edited by John Armaos on 11/07, 9:51am)


Post 72

Thursday, November 8, 2007 - 3:21amSanction this postReply
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From the article in which Rothbard quotes Garret:

We are no longer able to choose between peace and war. We have embraced perpetual war…. Wherever and whenever the Russian aggressor attacks, in Europe, Asia, or Africa, there we must meet him.


When was this article written? The perpetual war with the Soviet Union ended in 1989. Some perpetual war!

The book which this article was excerpted from was published in the mid 70's, but Garret died around '54, so his quote had to be before then.


Post 73

Sunday, January 6, 2008 - 5:43amSanction this postReply
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Reply to post #2

Although he was possibly the worst novelist of the 20th Century, this is a good quote:

You can wipe out your opponents. But if you do it unjustly you become eligible for being wiped out yourself. --Ernest Hemingway


I reply:

With what army?

Besides, the last one standing is the Winner.

If one destroys one's enemies totally, the question of justice is moot. Dead is dead, justly or not. Death is a Fact, not a Principle.


Bob Kolker


Post 74

Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 7:22pmSanction this postReply
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No better place than this...

For my criminology senior seminar, I am writing a paper on RATIONAL CHOICE THEORY.  This provocative assertion says that people choose to act as they do for reasons internal to them.   (Go figure...)  Anyway, as part of the empirical validation of this theory, I happened upon this:

"Do Police Reduce Crime? Estimates Using the Allocation of Police Forces after a Terrorist Attack," by Rafael Di Tella and Ernersto Schargrodsky, The American Economic Review, Vol. 94, No. 1 (Mar. 2004) pp. 115-133.

"Terrorist attack" you ask. 911?  The first WTC bombing back in 1993?  Oklahoma City?  Well... this is from Argentina. Back in 1994, Hezbollah claimed responsibility for the bombing of a Jewish Community Center that claimed 84 lives and resulted in an additional 100+ injuries.

Some might argue that the war on Islam is a defensive war.

I maintain that Islam is convenient target for Objectivists.  It is better for us to rail against them, than to actually address the equivalent irrationality of our Christian neighbors.  That said, it is clear that right here, right now, the problem to be solved is Islam.


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Post 75

Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 5:09pmSanction this postReply
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Wow.  Kyrel has posted some really awful, ugly stuff on this thread, with the worst being his insisting that all Muslims are evil.  Has he actually met some moderate Muslims?  I've hung out on Reason.com a lot, and one of the most consistently pleasant and peaceful people there is the lone Muslim, Ali.

The reality is that some Muslims are very good people.  You might say their faith's ideology is evil, but Ayn Rand went off on the altruism proferred in the Bible, too.  Are we to say that all Christians are therefore evil, because their faith contains evil philosophies?

And is it really an Objectivist POV that classes of people are collectively evil, rather than considering each individual and their personal ideology on their merits?


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Post 76

Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 6:07pmSanction this postReply
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I know good Muslims, Christians, and people of other faiths and none. I also don't beleive in collective condemnation. I like to keep my condemnation as specific as possible!

Post 77

Thursday, January 24, 2008 - 12:01pmSanction this postReply
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I see Grand Dragon Zantonavitch is striking again.

"Racism is the ugliest form of collectivism."

One wonders what he contributes by being here, anyway.

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Post 78

Friday, January 25, 2008 - 3:37amSanction this postReply
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Jim,

Are you using Kyrel's method to judge everyone here?

I don't know any Christians who defend all Christian tenets.  I have yet to meet a Muslim who does not defend all Muslim tenets.  Where are all of the Muslim Mark Steyns and  Hitchens?   Where are all of the "moderates?"

I often refer to the Christian bible as a suicide manual, while the Koran can be described as a throat slitters manual.  Huge difference.



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Post 79

Saturday, January 26, 2008 - 11:23amSanction this postReply
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John Armaos' comment:
Evil has won more often than good. For the better part of the 100,000 year existence of humanity brutal, totalitarian rule was the norm, not the exception. Islam dominated 1/3 of the world for centuries, the Soviet Union killed 100 million plus people in a century's time before its demise, half of the world today is a brutal totalitarian hell hole. I am optimistic it is getting better but simply just being a beacon of hope and progress for the rest of the world has historically done squat to advance the cause of freedom. It took violent action to remove fascists from power. Not simply just exposing them for the intellectual frauds that they are. Now intellectually exposing them as frauds is certainly important, it serves to get people on board with you to help you fight.

It seems to me that what John, and others like him, seek in their quest for cosmic justice is simply obedience imposed through physical force. For John and these others are deeply infatuated with the alleged efficacy of guns and military power to control the outcome of history, i.e. to control other men's thinking. They believe, of course, that aggressive violence employed to a noble end, "freedom", is virtuous. They also argue (as in John's comment in the paragraph above), that "nothing else works".

John's thinking about this is radically antagonistic to the basic ideas that Rand emphasized, as explained, for example, in her essay "The Roots of War". In this essay, she explained that the essential prerequisite to resolving differences about ethics, justice, and politics, is the acceptance and understanding by the disputants that reason is man's only means of acquiring knowlege. She elaborated on the theme that war is the inevitable outcome among disputants who reject reason as the ultimate standard of dispute resolution, since ethics is discovered only through reason.

True, if some irrational thug aggresses against you--or against the legal jurisdiction under which you live--then you must repell the agression with defensive force. But strictly defined "defense" doesn't seem to be what John has in mind as justification for killing people. For John believes that nearly any action, if committed by someone who holds values antagonistic to his, is sufficient grounds to attack them militarily.

For example, John thinks attacking Iraq was justified, even though it has been established beyond reasonable doubt that the Iraqi State posed no military threat to the USA. Why? Apparently because he thinks the ideas held by many Iraqi's are potentially dangerous to the West, since some of their number would like to inflict death and suffering on Westerners (just as many Americans wish the same for Iraqi's).

Similarly, John and others applaud the US invasion of Afghanistan, on the grounds that bin Laden bombed the WTC and Pentagon, and that this crime justified bombing and invading Afghanistan, where bin Laden lived. Our invasion caused the deaths of perhaps 100,000 people, none of whom had ever been to NYC or seen the WTC. But that fact doesn't deter John from cheering on the invasion, because he thinks the Islamic ideas embraced by many in Afghanistan are dangerous thinking. Prior to the invasion, the Taliban offered to extradite bin Laden to the American authorities, under proceedures set forth in law, if the US authorities could produce evidence of bin Laden's culpability sufficient, under American law, to charge him with the crime and bring him to trial in the United States. Of course, the Bush people ignored this offer, choosing instead to invade.

There are two basic problems with this quest for cosmic justice. First, that quest is to be imposed on other Americans through physical force in the form of taxation, the restriction of the liberty of US citizens from official domestic spying and harrassment through such devices as the misnamed Patriot Act, and the elevated risk of terrorist blowback to innocent Americans in the USA. Prosecuting the quest for cosmic justice requires the violation of the rights, both of Americans, and of foreign people who have not aggressed against Americans living in their own country, but who do hold bad ideas and may sometimes wish us ill.

Second, John's program for our lives won't deliver on the promises he makes. One can't control the thinking of other people, because, obviously, thinking is individual and voluntary. The idea that Americans could ever improve their own lives and make the world a better place by killing millions who don't think properly is ludicrous. For many Americans themselves believe in collectivist ideas. Moreover, aggressively attacking people won't alter their thinking; but it will inflame feelings of retribution and revenge and reinforce the worst in their morally impoverished world view.

Clearly, our work is cut out for us right here in the United States, to bring about a revival of interest in the ideas that support classical individualism.


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