About
Content
Store
Forum

Rebirth of Reason
War
People
Archives
Objectivism

Post to this threadMark all messages in this thread as readMark all messages in this thread as unreadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Forward one pageLast Page


Post 40

Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 12:33pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Teresa, I've recommended these previously but allow me do so again. Richard J. Maybury's World War I and World War II address all of your arguments and many others in great detail. These are easy and enjoyable reads.
Cool, thanks, Bob!  Do they have pictures? ;)

"Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations--entangling alliances with none, I deem the essential principles of our government, and consequently those which ought to shape its administration."
Thomas Jefferson, 1801
I wonder what Jefferson would think of these principles, now that trade is hopelessly mixed up with politics to such a degree in the world? 

"There are...only three possible political and economic conditions: liberty, tyranny or chaos. All systems are variants of these three...Washington's grand strategy in this 'war on terrorism'... remove the tyranny, then call the chaos victory."
Richard Maybury, 2003
::Rolling my eyes:: Is that what he really thinks we should do?? Yikes.



Mick:
I remember being incensed at the sight of the Kuwaiti elite living it up in the discos of Europe, while our troops fought the Kuwatis' battle for them. 
Interesting. Like I should care about what some lazy playboy does while he's attending university.

I remember reading about a Kuwaiti princess who helped rescue babies from a threatened hospital. We all have our perceptions of this history.

 As I recall, support for the war was about 60% for  and 40% opposed, far from "pretty much the whole country".
Probably depends on what poll you read.


Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 41

Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 1:43pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Bill writes:
But every action has both benefits and costs, and no action is worth taking if the costs outweigh the benefits. You always have to ask yourself, is it worth it? What am I giving up in order to gain the desired goal?
But Bill, don't you realize that justice trumps all cost-benefit analysis? The miscreant deserves his punishment no matter the cost to impose it.

Or, at least, that's what some would have you believe.

Post 42

Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 2:28pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Teresa: "Interesting. Like I should care about what some lazy playboy does while he's attending university. "

Whether you care or not is your own business. I cared because my money and my friends were being used to save their "lazy playboy" asses.

Teresa: "Probably depends on what poll you read."

I read more than one poll and I don't recall any poll coming close to the near 100% level of support for the war you claim.




Post 43

Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 2:40pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Stellar posts Jonathan! You've saved me from so much typing!

Thanks too to Bill for that post; I'm definitely going to have to co-opt your term 'forced rider'.

Kurt - One of your premises particularly stood out to me:

"Largely enemies of the future will all be Individuals: Osama, Al-Zarqawi, Mullahs in Tehran, Kim Jung Il, Saddam Hussein, the Warlord(s) of Somalia and Sudan... They can be killed, and they will get weaker, but without something in their place, even a flawed government like the one forming in Iraq, they will be back with a vengeance."

The first sentence I absolutely agree with; especially when dealing with autocracies the individual personalities leading matter so much. The second part I don't get. Historically I think of aggressive nations getting divided, breaking down internally or at least having their momementum stopped upon the death of a powerful leader - Alexander, Attila, Genghis. What examples are you basing your inferrence on?


Post 44

Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 3:36pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Jonathan excellent posts. I only have one question though, you wrote:

I just don't understand how you can advocate that business should be free from government intervention, but that our government should send our soldiers to die to protect the interests of these same businesses?



But don't we consider that the role of government is to protect the rights of its citizens, and one of those rights being the right to property and to free trade? For example, if a business is besieged in America by a group of heavily armed thugs, sending in a police force to protect the businessman's rights could result in police casualties but the role of the police is to intervene and stop these crimes. Essentially we do allow for government to intervene to make sure we uphold the concept that man's rights are inviolable. We certainly believe in laissez-faire Capitalism but we are not Libertines or Anarchists. Perhaps we shouldn't apply this as foreign policy since there is no international government set up that protects individual rights, but you can understand why one would make such an argument that the American military protecting the American businessman's rights in another country are part of fulfilling that role of protecting Americans rights that our soldier's swore an oath to uphold? A government such as Saddam's Iraq, that doesn't uphold liberty is not a legitimate one, and thus it does not deserve to exist.

Perhaps it's irrational to demand that our military perform this role, and I tend to agree especially in Iraq that this is a case of an irrational demand of our military to protect American business interests in Iraq.

I would tend to agree with you Jonathan, that our military is not best suited for that kind of protection that extends to our economic interests to other countries. And perhaps it would be unfair to expect our soldiers to protect the rights of Americans when those Americans are doing business in countries that are hostile to the ideals of freedom.

But I do have some sympathy for that argument. What if Great Britain was besieged by a totalitarian agressor nation? For example WW2 Germany. Great Britain, a country that we trade with extensively, that is a country that for the most part upholds the ideals of freedom like we do, that by allowing them to be besieged, they cease to be a country of liberty and freedom, do we not have an obligation to help them? Would an attack on Great Britain that succeeded, mean that we ourselves should not feel safe from attack from the agressor nation such as was the fact in WW2? Also say we rely on Great Britain, say for oil to run our military vehicles and thus keep a working Army, would a defeated Great Britain mean America is at a severe disadvanatage and at greater risk of being attacked?

That by not stopping an aggressor nation, but rather appeasing it, will only empower that nation to continue its warpath? I don't think it's a question that has an easy answer. But I do think if any democratic country that upholds liberty as law of the land, it deserves the help of all other free nations when they should find themselves under attack from an aggressor nation. Entangling alliances probably not a good idea, but alliances between all countries that uphold freedom, I think is a good idea. If freedom loving countries are united, and pool military power together, no aggressor nation on this planet will ever stand a chance of succeeding.

But I do find it hard to believe we can call Kuwait a democracy.


Sanction: 21, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 21, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 21, No Sanction: 0
Post 45

Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 4:34pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Teresa,

"There are...only three possible political and economic conditions: liberty, tyranny or chaos. All systems are variants of these three...Washington's grand strategy in this 'war on terrorism'... remove the tyranny, then call the chaos victory."
Richard Maybury, 2003
::Rolling my eyes:: Is that what he really thinks we should do?? Yikes.

No, that is not what he is advocating we should do, this is what he says our government has done.

 

I have not written on this subject in a while so allow me to recapitulate my thoughts, as briefly as I can, so that my position is understood (even if not agreed with.)

 

I believe the best way to fight terrorism is with unabashed, 100 % laissez-faire capitalism.

 

Imagine, if you will, an airliner where all the passengers are armed. 9/11 would never have happened. Or imagine if, rather than our government screening airline passengers, airlines actually competed over who had the best security measures in place, at the best price and with the least inconvenience.

 

Imagine entrepreneurs, scientists and inventors unshackled from the strangulating laws and regulations promulgated by the priests and the politicians. Could we have human clones manufactured and stored for parts replacement or even brain transplants? New weapons for self-defense? New, cheaper energy sources? New technologies developed in all fields? More time for study, recreation and philosophy?

 

The threat from terrorism is minimal. I am more threatened by the possibility of getting injured or killed in a car accident, which is statistically much more likely, than I am of being the victim of some terrorist act. Even the threat of a dirty bomb attack, which I believe is likely to occur at sometime, is still a minimal threat to me. The real threat is from the statists who would take away my rights in order to protect "us."

 

James Valiant made an excellent point on the SOLO immigrant thread about the difference between citizens and persons. While persons have the same inalienable rights everywhere, the government's proper function is to protect the rights of its citizens, not all persons. Maybury has said, "...the Bill of Rights stops at the border." If you seek to trade with foreigners outside our borders, you do so at your own risk. Why should I be burdened with protecting you when you've left the protection of a lawful society to pursue your own interests in an unlawful society? The risk may be worth it to you but it is your risk, not mine.

 

I could go on and on about the follies of American foreign policy from the early days of our republic to the present, but, let's see, recently the US financed Osama Bin Laden when he was fighting in Afghanistan against the Soviet Union, supported and financed Iraq under Saddam Hussan when it was in "our interests," and currently supports and helps finance Saudi Arabia in spite of it being a theocratic dictatorship. Does this make sense to anyone?

 

In Iraq, Bush is bringing them democracy, incorrectly equating democracy with freedom. You cannot force freedom on people. Bush, a theocrat himself, is just creating another theocracy. No good will come of it.

 

What would I do? I would immediately withdraw our American troops from every nook and corner of the world. To every nation of the world, I would say, "You are on your own." I would establish a policy of strict non-intervention in the affairs of other countries. I would state clearly, "Don't tread on me." If I perceived any country as a direct and imminent thread to the US, I would go to war, that is, destroy that enemy by any means possible up to and including the nuclear option.

 

Simple? Yes! Isn't it really more complicated than that? No!

 

The US, if it adopted the "unknown ideal" that is capitalism, would be a beacon of light to the world. Individuals could trade with foreigners as they saw fit, help to individually finance and overthrow dictatorships around the world if they wished (out of their own pockets,) and live the good life.

 

Bad governments will eventually fall from within, just as did the Soviet Union, and their citizens will finally have a proper government to emulate.

 

Our primary military strategy should be patterned after Switzerland which remained uninvolved during two major world wars in spite of being surrounded on all sides by participants in those wars. Switzerland's means of staying out of those frays was not because of a policy of "neutrality." Maybury writes, "There is an old saying, Switzerland does not have an army: Switzerland is an army. It is an entire nation of Minutemen."

 

Maybury continues, "In World War II, the Swiss militia numbered 850,000, a fifth of the population. These were more troops than the U.S. Army had when the World Trade Center was destroyed. Not bad for such a small country.

 

"Under the six-to-one ratio, the Germans and Italians would have needed five million troops to successfully occupy that tiny nation. Facing 850,000 snipers, the German generals decided they could invade, but they would never get out of Switzerland alive."

 
Sounds like a plan: peace through trade and a well regulated militia. What are we waiting for? Oh, yea, we have a cultural war to win first.



Post 46

Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 5:19pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
The amazing John Armaos:


I would tend to agree with you Jonathan, that our military is not best suited for that kind of protection that extends to our economic interests to other countries. And perhaps it would be unfair to expect our soldiers to protect the rights of Americans when those Americans are doing business in countries that are hostile to the ideals of freedom.
I simply have no argument against this. Well done. I wonder how suspending the rights of Americans who travel to hostile countries will fly over with the People?

But I do find it hard to believe we can call Kuwait a democracy.
LOL, sounds like how my old man viewed Japan for 60 years.  "It's an Imperial system, with war lords and shit!"



Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 47

Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 5:50pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Bob P.

James Valiant made an excellent point on the SOLO immigrant thread about the difference between citizens and persons. While persons have the same inalienable rights everywhere, the government's proper function is to protect the rights of its citizens, not all persons. Maybury has said, "...the Bill of Rights stops at the border." If you seek to trade with foreigners outside our borders, you do so at your own risk. Why should I be burdened with protecting you when you've left the protection of a lawful society to pursue your own interests in an unlawful society? The risk may be worth it to you but it is your risk, not mine.
First, I must thank you for framing this in such a way that has previously alluded mi grasp.

 

What would I do? I would immediately withdraw our American troops from every nook and corner of the world. To every nation of the world, I would say, "You are on your own." I would establish a policy of strict non-intervention in the affairs of other countries. I would state clearly, "Don't tread on me." If I perceived any country as a direct and imminent thread to the US, I would go to war, that is, destroy that enemy by any means possible up to and including the nuclear option.

 

Simple? Yes! Isn't it really more complicated than that? No!f the world. To every nation of the world, I would say, "You are on your own." I would establish a policy of strict non-intervention in the affairs of other countries. I would state clearly, "Don't tread on me." If I perceived any country as a direct and imminent thread to the US, I would go to war, that is, destroy that enemy by any means possible up to and including the nuclear option.

 

 


 

 

So, threats to trading partners would be a threat to our boarders, or not? 

 

I have to tell you that I really appreciate the history of the Swiss military during WWII. Tell me, if you know, was service to the Swiss military conscripted, and compulsory, like in Israel?  And if it was, does that diminish the effect of it at all, or was that a rational way for them to protect themselves? 

 

I'm asking for your view on this: if enlistment was compulsory, how does that square with laissez-faire?  

 

If it wasn't compulsory...then...damn!

 


 




Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 48

Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 6:33pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
I just caught up on this thread, and I've got a few scattered points I'd like to make.  I think I'm in basic agreement with Teresa, and I think she's doing a fine job.

Let me start with a hypothetical I wrote about a long time ago.  Imagine some state government decides to pass a law.  The law says that white people are not allowed to trade or provide material benefit to black people.  You can't hire them.  You can't sell them stuff.  You can't buy stuff from them.  You can't offer charity.  If you do, you'd be punished.  And now the question.  Whose rights are violated?  The threat of force is only aimed at the white people.  Does that mean that the black people's rights are not violated?  Would you say that they're not victims?

The hypothetical asks about the nature of rights.  In a trade, two people and their rights are involved.  When someone forcibly prevents that trade, who's rights are violated?  Does it matter if the force is aimed in only one direction?  I don't think it does.  I think when the rights of others to trade with us our violated, it's also a violation of our rights to trade with them.  I don't consider retaliation or prevention of that use of force as being an intervention in the economy.  Nor do I consider it a selfless act of sacrifice.

I also don't subscribe to the view that our government should cower behind our borders and say that anyone who deals with the rest of the world is on their own, and we will never attempt to defend their rights.  Why not just say "Go ahead and steal from or kill any US citizen who travels anywhere outside our borders...we don't care!". 

The role of government is to secure our rights.  That means promoting objective law in the rest of the world.  It includes forming treaties, extradition laws, uniformity of laws, and methods of dealing with crimes.  It may mean military action.  It often involves negotiations.

It's true that we could simplify all of this by saying that citizens who trade with foreigners or who leave the country are on their own.  It's true that foreign policy could be a lot easier if we never looked beyond our borders.  But are our rights really protected if we're only allowed to exercise them under specific conditions?

Changing the subject to the Iraq government, obviously it has problems.  But the way I see it, there are institutional mechanisms in place that give some hope for the future.  Yes, democracy allows people to vote for horrible governments.  But it also allows them to change that government if it becomes oppressive or hurts their interests.

Look at China.  Does anyone think that if people there had true freedom of speech/press, and a right to vote, that it would have some impact on the government?  It may be that if they all voted this instant, they'd choose the same government.  But the US founding fathers believe that having these kinds of mechanisms in place would promote liberty, and curtail government abuses.

Having some of these mechanisms in place in Iraq is a huge improvement.  It's not because they are guaranteed to do the right thing...if they were, there'd be no need for a government.  But by having these mechanisms in place, it creates the right kind of political forces that can push a country towards freedom.  Even the European socialist states could never do what the hardcore Communists countries did, because they had these institutional mechanisms in place.

That's why I'm much more optimistic.  It doesn't matter if they're ready for freedom or whatever.  If we think the structure of the government (checks and balances, federalism, separation of powers, voting, constitution, etc.) have an effect on the product of government, we should be at least happy with these elements.  Instead of looking at as some fixed structure, we should view it as a process, and see how that process will be shaped by these elements.

Related to this, I dislike the phrase "forcing people to be free".  It's intentionally worded to sound like a contradiction.  But if you phrase it as "forcing people to not violate rights", it suddenly sounds exactly like what we think the role of government is all about.  So which is it?

And one more related point.  I could easily make an argument that the people in the US believe in collectivism, mysticism, altruism, religion, etc.  I could show that they don't really want freedom.  And I could then postulate, despite real evidence, that if these people were allowed to vote, they'd create one of the most oppressive governments of all time.  I'm sure there are people that make that argument.  But politics is a bit more complicated than that.  If you're looking to be pessimistic, I'm sure you can find everything you need to come to the conclusions you want.  And if you applied that method universally, I'm equally sure your conclusions would contradict reality.

(Edited by Joseph Rowlands on 6/12, 12:48am)


Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Sanction: 4, No Sanction: 0
Post 49

Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 6:43pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
So, threats to trading partners would be a threat to our boarders, or not?
  A threat to our borders? No.
have to tell you that I really appreciate the history of the Swiss military during WWII. Tell me, if you know, was service to the Swiss military conscripted, and compulsory, like in Israel?  And if it was, does that diminish the effect of it at all, or was that a rational way for them to protect themselves?

More from Maybury:

 

"In Switzerland, a man joins the militia at age 20 and remains until 50. For officers, age 55. A militia is all the able-bodied males of good character (in this context, good character usually means no criminal record) in the country. They are trained, equipped and ready at all times to turn out for guerrilla operations.

 

"Contrary to the unflattering picture of militia often painted by the news media, a militia is a military version of the volunteer firemen who are always trained and ready to turn out to fight fires.

 

"Each Swiss militiaman trains regularly, much like the National Guard in the U.S. He keeps his battle rifle and ammunition in his home ready for immediate use.

 

"Militia-guerrillas are trained to ambush privates and corporals only when a more valuable target is not available. They prefer colonels and generals.

 

Marksmanship is the Swiss National sport, and all Swiss militiamen are required to be expert marksmen. This means they are all qualified to be snipers, and the colonels and generals of surrounding nations know it."

 

And:

 

"To a tyrant, there is no place in the world as scary as Switzerland.

 

"America has never had anything remotely resembling the Swiss system of protection. The American armed forces are not defensive, they are offensive. They are designed not to defend their homeland, but to get into other people's wars, and they do this very well...

 

"Nearly every book and movie about the World Wars omits Switzerland. The attitude seems to be, the Swiss were not in the wars, so they are not important; they are not part of the story.

 

"To me, no country in the World Wars is more important than Switzerland. It is the example the others should be copying."

 

And:

 

"Always remember, little Switzerland occupied the most dangerous location in the world--the exact center of Europe--entirely surrounded by enemies, but stayed out of both World Wars, and stayed free.

 

"The Swiss avoided the carnage so common all over the globe by doing what America's Second Amendment requires. They know a well-regulated militia is not optional, it is necessary. When it comes to achieving the peace and liberty  we all want, I challenge you to find a system of military defense that has worked better than that of the Swiss. All countries can use it."

if enlistment was compulsory, how does that square with laissez-faire?

It doesn't. Capitalism remains "the unknown ideal."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 





Post 50

Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 7:05pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Teresa wrote:

I simply have no argument against this. Well done. I wonder how suspending the rights of Americans who travel to hostile countries will fly over with the People?


Teresa I'm not sure if you wrote this with a sense of hostility towards me or do you genuinely agree with me? Did you read my entire post? I think I was trying to say I find the entire thing to be a difficult issue. I was saying I have sympathy for your argument.

But don't you think it would be irrational for an American to demand his rights be protected when an American travels to a knowingly hostile country against the advice of his own government? It's just a matter of rationality, you can't expect our military to just be sacrificial lambs to someone's suicidal tendencies of wanting to travel to primitive, hostile cultures. For example, if you want to travel to Iran, then go ahead and commit suicide, don't expect the rest of us to come and save you while risking our own lives when you should know damn well traveling to a country like Iran could mean your demise. We also have to weigh what resources can reasonably be expended on protecting Americans that travel abroad. I would say only governments that are pro-west are the only ones I think Americans should feel reasonably safe to travel to.


But I do find it hard to believe we can call Kuwait a democracy.

LOL, sounds like how my old man viewed Japan for 60 years. "It's an Imperial system, with war lords and shit!"


That's absurd. I never said Kuwait is incapable of being a democracy, or that they are not worthy of having one, or that they won't have a democracy in the future. I'm sure one day they will be one. I'm only stating a fact, that right now, at this point in time, they are not a democracy but a monarchy. Our soldiers do not fight for potential future governments, they fight for American rights, now, today, that is in the present.

Post 51

Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 7:16pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Joseph writes:

"Go ahead and steal from or kill any US citizen who travels anywhere outside our borders...we don't care!".


Fair enough. And you make a good argument which is why I have been saying I have a lot of sympathy for your position and Teresas. But there is the reality of resources. We do not have limitless resources. There are plenty of countries that are not hostile to the US that we can do business with, that is pro-western governments.

But do you think it's irrational then for our state department to give advice to our citizens in which countries to not travel to? I mean it's just common sense. We do not have limitless resources. If someone has suicidal tendencies and wants to travel to a country known to be overtly hostile to westerners, I think if that American is that irrational to take that action, they are not worthy of having rational beings sacrifice their own welfare for them. If you are forewarned, if you go to (x) country, we will not follow because we do not have the resources to protect you, then you're taking that irrational risk upon yourself. Don't ask others to die for your stupid actions.

Post 52

Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 7:29pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Hi John,

I think your comments are perfectly reasonable.  We can't effectively protect rights in all areas of the world.  There are trade-offs that need to be made.  That's why foreign policy is hard.  You can force it to be simple by ignoring the outside world, but otherwise you have to deal with the complexity.

If you look at it from a cost/benefit kind of analysis (the alternative is to irrationally try to free the entire world all at once, or to ignore foreign policy entirely), it means you have to be selective in what you do.  I've written elsewhere that there are some simple principles that can help guide our decisions.  For instance, we may simply say that we don't want to lose more ground.  Defend those nations that are most compatible with protecting our rights.  Promote positive relationships with them.  Provide incentives for positive change.  Etc.  You're still stuck making hard choices, but their informed by moral principles.


Post 53

Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 7:47pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Bill writes:
But every action has both benefits and costs, and no action is worth taking if the costs outweigh the benefits. You always have to ask yourself, is it worth it? What am I giving up in order to gain the desired goal?
But Bill, don't you realize that justice trumps all cost-benefit analysis? The miscreant deserves his punishment no matter the cost to impose it.

Or, at least, that's what some would have you believe.
Do I detect a little tongue in cheek there, Rick?! ;-) Yeah, to say that someone "deserves" something that it's not in one's interest to provide is bringing altruism in the back door.

Now I do understand the principals at the Ayn Rand Institute when they say that justice trumps cost-benefit analysis. What they mean is that in deciding what's just, you have to rely on moral principles which are themselves determined by cost-benefit analysis. As Peikoff puts it, "All virtues . . . justice included, must be validated by reference to consequences. but consequences - the long-range consequences of an action for human life - can be predicted only by means of principles, and principles can perform this function only if accepted as absolutes." (OPAR, p. 284) I agree with Peikoff here, but there is no principle which says that you must always punish wrongdoers no matter what the cost to your life and values.

- Bill


Post 54

Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 8:27pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
That's absurd. I never said Kuwait is incapable of being a democracy, or that they are not worthy of having one, or that they won't have a democracy in the future. I'm sure one day they will be one. I'm only stating a fact, that right now, at this point in time, they are not a democracy but a monarchy.

Country Profile:

Upcoming Elections

  • Parliamentary
    June 29, 2006
Kuwait

Description of government structure:

  • Chief of State: Amir Sheikh SABAH Al-Ahmad Al-Jaber Al-Sabah
  • Head of Government: Prime Minister Sheikh NASSER Muhammad al-Ahmad Al-Sabah
  • Assembly: Kuwait has a unicameral National Assembly (Majlis al-Umma) with 50 seats.

Description of electoral system:

  • The monarchy is hereditary.
  • In the National Assembly (Majlis al-Umma) 50 members are elected by popular vote to serve 4-year terms.

Population:

  • Population: 2,335,648 (July 2005 Estimate includes 1,291,354 non-nationals.)

Future elections

  • Parliamentary - June 29, 2006

Past elections



Post 55

Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 8:34pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
Teresa I'm not sure if you wrote this with a sense of hostility towards me or do you genuinely agree with me?
I like you too much to be hostile.  :)

Joe:

It's true that we could simplify all of this by saying that citizens who trade with foreigners or who leave the country are on their own.  It's true that foreign policy could be a lot easier if we never looked beyond our borders.  But are our rights really protected if we're only allowed to exercise them under specific conditions?
Excellent.

 


Post 56

Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 8:48pmSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
The militia structure of the Swiss is much as Ethan Allen and "Lighthorse Harry" Lee had in mind at the beginning of this country's founding - except Steuben convinced Washington otherwise, thus instituting the Prussian mode of defense...

Post 57

Monday, June 12, 2006 - 5:03amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
But I do have some sympathy for that argument. What if Great Britain was besieged by a totalitarian agressor nation? For example WW2 Germany. Great Britain, a country that we trade with extensively, that is a country that for the most part upholds the ideals of freedom like we do, that by allowing them to be besieged, they cease to be a country of liberty and freedom, do we not have an obligation to help them? Would an attack on Great Britain that succeeded, mean that we ourselves should not feel safe from attack from the agressor nation such as was the fact in WW2? Also say we rely on Great Britain, say for oil to run our military vehicles and thus keep a working Army, would a defeated Great Britain mean America is at a severe disadvanatage and at greater risk of being attacked?

John, I think you and others have brought up valid points, however... my original post dealt with Iraq, not some hypothetical hostile country. Now, I originally supported the war on the premise of Saddam had WMD's and was therefore a legitimate threat. It's clear now he didn't posess WMD's, and while I don't buy into the left's argument that we were lied to etc, I think it was an honest intelligence mistake, I think it's time to admit we were wrong, and pull out. It's clear now, to me anyways, that Saddam, as horrible as he was to his own people, was never that great of a threat to our interests.

I'm sure you are well aware of the fact that we didn't get involved in WWII until we were directly attacked. Again, you have brought up good points, however I don't think they apply to the original post. Saddam was a pathetic little dictator, who might have hated the US and committed atrocities against his own people, but again I don't think he was a real threat to us. But I'm willing to listen to evidence to the contrary.
You might turn your head when evil bullies are beating up the aspiring good, but I can't, regardless of where they come from.

Depends... If I am carrying my 9mm , and they are unarmed, I wouldn't hesitate to deliver justice; if I'm unarmed, and they are the ones with the weapons, I wouldn't hesitate to run the other way, but I would call the police. I also wouldn't roam the world seeking to deliver justice to every criminal on the planet, it's not practical. Would the world be a better place with no criminals, if every country was free? Most definitely yes, but can the US honestly invade and fix every country? Can they convert everyone to the right philosophy (never mind that our own government embraces mostly flawed philosophies)?
Again, I believe our military should be reserved for direct threats against us only. When Barbara Branden was asked "what should be done about the poor in an objectivist society?" (I'm paraphrasing) she replied, "If you want to help them, you will not be stopped." Feel free to contribute money or even join freedom fighters in whichever country you choose, but I don't think it's right to send our own military all over the globe fighting every evil on the planet.

(Edited by Jonathan Fauth on 6/12, 5:05am)


Post 58

Monday, June 12, 2006 - 6:52amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
"I'm sure you are well aware of the fact that we didn't get involved in WWII until we were directly attacked."

True in the strict sense of not deploying regular troops in battle. However, contrary to some portrayals the US was definitely not isolationist. The govt had already chosen sides and taken some escalating actions (e.g. 'lend-lease', Flying Tigers, oil+metal embargos), especially in the Pacific, in the years before Pearl.


Post 59

Monday, June 12, 2006 - 6:58amSanction this postReply
Bookmark
Link
Edit
William - That is clearly why this cannot just be about War - it is about "war" in the context of "everything else" where the "everything else" is MORE important than the war, actually.  However, here and there, wars of some sort or another will be necessary.  In fact, Iraq barely qualified as a war.  It is more of a peace-keeping mission and the country is much worse off after 10 years of sanctions than it would have been had we done this in 1990 (though I am not blaming anyone, I am using hind-sight, but we would, in fact, have been much better off having done this in 1990).  The "everything else" I speak of has to do with the whole ball of wax, including but not limited to terrorism, energy and resources, economics and private investment especially, people (immigration), and security.  The 4 flows of globalism have to keep running: 
People & Energy - we need these from the GAP
Security & Capital - they need this from the CORE

...as to the law of unintended consequences, I believe that this is a much, much cheaper solution (potentially, of course it can always get f'ud up) than the alternative of inaction.  Inaction gets us nowhere except more of the same and new rivalries that could easily lead to more (REAL) wars in the future.


Post to this threadBack one pagePage 0Page 1Page 2Page 3Forward one pageLast Page


User ID Password or create a free account.